Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Proposal )
these are some of the things that President Obama's debt reduction commission is going to officially recommend ...
(snip)A presidential commission’s leaders proposed a $3.8 trillion deficit-cutting plan that would cut Social Security and Medicare, reduce income-tax rates and eliminate tax breaks including the mortgage-interest deduction.
The co-chairmen of the panel appointed by President Barack Obama suggested reducing Social Security spending by raising the retirement age to 68 in about 2050 and 69 in about 2075. The plan also would slow the rate at which benefits grow. The savings would come between 2012 and 2020.
“This country’s out of money and we better start thinking,” said co-chairman Erskine Bowles. Without “tough choices,” he said, “we’re on the most predictable path toward an economic crisis that I can imagine.”
Bowles, former President Bill Clinton’s chief of staff, and Republican former Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming announced the proposal in Washington today, stressing that it was intended as a starting point for discussion.
None of the proposals would take effect next year to avoid disrupting the economic recovery. Bowles said income-tax rates would be reduced to three levels: 8 percent, 14 percent and 23 percent.
Wiping out all tax breaks, including the home mortgage deduction, while lowering rates would save $100 billion a year, Bowles said. Members of the panel could decide to keep some tax breaks by offering offsetting cuts, he said.
Bowles said about three-fourths of the savings would come from spending cuts with the remainder from tax increases.
‘Harpooned Every Whale’
“We have harpooned every whale in the ocean and some of the minnows,” Simpson said. “No one has done this before.”
The proposal would attempt to slow health-care costs by paying doctors participating in Medicare less, and it calls for “comprehensive” legislation to reduce medical malpractice costs.
Discretionary spending cuts in the plan include reducing congressional and White House budgets by 15 percent, freezing federal salaries and cutting the federal workforce by 10 percent. The discretionary reductions of $1.4 trillion would be split equally between defense and domestic programs, Bowles said.
“The cuts really will happen on both sides of that firewall,” he said.
The plan would cut the deficit to 2.2 percent of gross domestic product by 2015, from the current 9 percent, exceeding Obama’s goal. It would also reduce debt to 60 percent of GDP by 2024. (snip)
Consider what this would actually mean in the real world ...
- the elimination of the home mortgage interest tax deduction will significantly increase the net cost of home ownership by extracting an extra $2k-$5k-$10k+ per year in income taxes from mortgaged homeowners ( the higher the income, the higher the additional net cost of losing the mortgage interest deduction ). This will also indirectly increase rent prices and indirectly lower home prices.
- revamping the federal income tax rates but eliminating federal tax deductions for state and local taxes paid will VASTLY increase the federal tax bill for middle class and higher income residents of high tax rate states ( which coincidentally are mostly 'blue' )
- cutting medicaid reimbursement rates will cause private / corporate health insurance costs to skyrocket, as the medical industry will have no choice but to 'cost shift' to make up for providing mandatory medical care to medicaid patients at a reimbursement rate constituting a loss versus the actual cost of treatment. This will provide a strong incentive for employers to drop employee health insurance coverage.
- cutting $700 billion a year from domestic spending i.e. welfare, food stamps, medicare, Social Security, education subsidies etc. is going to create a lot of unhappy campers !
Obviously, there is no legal mandate that these 'recommendations' must be followed. However, given the recent election results, it's highly likely that at least some of these 'recommendations' will wind up being seriously deliberated. I would guess that dropping the federal tax deduction for state and local taxes paid will be at the top of the discussion list, since it arguably represents a stealth federal taxpayer subsidy for middle class and higher earning residents of CA, NY, IL etc.
Probably the least likely topic of deliberation will be dropping the home mortgage interest tax deduction, as there is still a huge unrealized toxic mortgage loss quagmire at both the US FED and at the major Wall St. banks. Whacking existing mortgaged homeowners with an additional $2k-$5k-$10k+ in annual federal income taxes would undoubtedly precipitate a fresh round of mortgage defaults.
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Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
Americans will complain (free speech) and keep going along with it (we're voters damn it!) right up to roasting jews (or is it muslims this time?) This frog ain't jumping yet. These frogs are short sighted and can't see whats waiting at the end of the log.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
boiling frogs indeed ( see other thread on that subject ) !
Also, some additional provisions of the debt reduction plan have leaked out today ...
- along with doing away with tax deductions, the plan would also do away with tax CREDITS. This would have a direct impact on low income Americans etc. as it would no longer be possible to have more money 'refunded' to you by the IRS than you paid in federal income tax withholding in the first place. Other abolished tax credits would presumably include the federal tax credits for purchase of solar / wind / electric vehicles, tax credits for college tuition payments etc.
- however, the plan would have no effect on the tax exempt status of state and local municipal bonds.
- an 18 cent per gallon increase in the federal gasoline tax is also planned
Of course, the commissioners pointed out that politicians would be free to 'restore' any of the perks that the plan proposes to abolish. However, to do so, the politicians would have to specifically lay out how the 'costs' of continuing a perk would be paid for via increased tax revenues from somewhere else.
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Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
Obama's Debt Reduction Commission came up with the type of namby pamby wishy washy proposals I was expecting.
Raising the retirement age is long overdue. It should have been 68 years ago.
I have no problem with eliminating the home mortgage interest deduction but why stop there ? I've long advocated eliminating ALL deductions, credits and allowances as part of a flat tax system.
Where are the eliminations of Federal programs and agencies ? We could eliminate the Departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy and Education and not feel it. Why not tell Congress and the President to each cut their budgets 10% ? We can't find 10% worth of fat in Defense ? And in almost every other Federal Department and agency.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^ from the little bit of info that has been leaked so far, the debt proposal calls for rolling back budgets for all US gov't departments to 2008 levels ... essentially a 3-4% reduction. In response, certain gov't departments are already screaming bloody murder.
Going back to the original leaked story, note that the overall game plan is to achieve 75% of the needed reductions via decreased gov't spending, while achieving 25% of the needed reductions via increased federal tax collections. This guarantees that, even if every tax rate change, tax deduction elimination, tax credit elimination is implemented etc. on the average effective federal tax rates are still going to increase by 25%. If the president or congress decide to mess with this by, for example, preserving the home mortgage interest tax deduction or the low 'earned' income tax credit, then some other American's taxes will have to go up by MORE than 25% to offset the 'cost' of preserving those tax deductions.
Also the original leak story pointed out that of the 75% of savings that needs to come from the gov't spending side, 37% will come from the defense budget and the other 37% will come from the domestic budget. Nobody has even considered the peripheral consequences of 'firing' 100,000+ GI's, of cancelling billions of dollars worth of aircraft / ship / missile / electronic warfare contracts etc. as a result of defense budget cutbacks thus resulting in pink slips for 100,000+ union defense industry workers.
My only personal read on this situation is that the timing of this story being leaked occurred as it did in order to take advantage of international news coverage of rioting students in the UK, striking workers in France, street fights in Greece etc. Obviously there are certain factions in the US gov't who would just as soon 'address' America's debt problems via QE2 ( or QE3 or QE4 ) FED money printing or by raising federal income tax rates significantly ... while providing a token reduction in gov't spending coming mostly from the defense budget. The hoped for international news tie-in is sending a subliminal message that if Americans want to avoid riots, strikes and street fights in their own streets that the only option is to accept much higher effective tax rates. However, with the house of representatives now firmly in republican hands, this is NOT going to happen quietly via a simple expiration of the GWB tax cuts.
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Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
I think it should be mentioned that while President Obama sanctioned this committee on debt reduction, it is an extremely bi-partison group and is making very sound non-political recommendations. They are very adamant in saying that this is only a start and covering topics that need to be under discussion. I think this is just the kind of realistic dialog we need to have if we are ever going to get out from under our problems.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^ agreed that the leaked report is a 'starting point' ... no matter how conveniently timed between foreign news reports of rioting and the 'lame duck' congressional session which will be the democrat's last chance to pass anything through the house over the objection of republicans.
As to the recommendations being 'non-political', as Eric pointed out already there are extremely few references to major / wholesale cutbacks in gov't ( i.e. the possible abolition of redundant federal agencies, possible salary reductions for gov't workers etc. ), a ton of references to tax increases, etc. Even so, as you correctly point out, the commission is really the first group who has been able to even begin discussions re certain 'sacred cows' i.e. Social Security.
My read of course is that bitter battles are about to commence as is already the case in Europe ... battles between the public sector and private sector, between the middle class and the poor, between the old and the young, between high tax rate states and low tax rate states etc.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^It contains enough cuts to balance the budget and hits programs that both Republicans and Democrats hold dear. It's nowhere near finalized and my only hope is that people will use the rage currently being felt by a large number of people in the country to really hold the politicians feet to the fire and not allow special interest and political self interest to cloud the water. At the end of the day while all the divisivness, name calling and hostility between the two parties is great for viewership for the media, it really does nothing productive for the economy or the American people. The boring, non-marketable truth is that realistic, rational and fair compromise is the best way to get us out of the hole we are in. If they can tweak it to where Rep's, Dem's and special interests's have to each sacrifice in as close to equal measure as possible we might have a decent shot. It will take the people being correctly informed and not gobbling up any crap that the special interests put out to decieve them and also the public doesn't tolerate any B.S. and really makes the politicians toe the line. Is the public smart enough and/or capable of doing that?- I don't think so, but hope that they learn to be.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
Quote:
Is the public smart enough and/or capable of doing that?- I don't think so, but hope that they learn to be
The 'gold foil hat' crowd would definitely point out that 12% of Americans collecting food stamp / welfare benefits + 15% of Americans being directly or indirectly employed by the gov't + 15% of American taxpayers receiving earned income tax credits + 18% of Americans receiving Social Security checks / Disability checjs constitutes a voting majority who are basically exempt from the 'real world' economic consequences of funding their gov't benefit checks / paychecks ! Thus as you point out, the odds of America's debt problems being solved amicably via an agreed upon mutually shared economic 'pain' are pretty close to zero.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^I'm not as worried about the public voting- as the auto workers have proven, regular citizens will give up salary and benefits for the greater good. I think it will be a lot tougher getting the special interests to feel that they are not exempt from sacrifices- or even from taking advantage of those willing to sacrifice to better themselves. I think that is where we will need both the public and government to make sure they toe the line. Their track record of huge bonuses in dire economic times and hoarding over a $1 trillion when spending and hiring are crucial doesn't inspire me with a lot of confidence in their team spirit.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^ well it appears that Obama is worried about the public voting ... from
(snip)"David Axelrod, the new WH Senior Adviser (what does that title mean?) leaked an e-mail today that a “compromise” had been reached on what to do with taxes for the next few years. All of the Bush tax cuts will be extended for another 24 months. AMT will also get “patched” up for a few years. So the great public debate on this critical issue actually never happened. The outcome was not really in doubt."(snip)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5JJarCb6DP.../cboredink.png
The graph shows the impact of extending and patching versus a base line estimate of the deficit. If we extend/patch the deficit goes up by $147b in 2011 and by $208b in 2012. So the compromise that was not discussed or debated will cost us $355b over two years. Poof!
As a result of this non-legislating the deficit will go up by more than half of all of Ben Bernanke’s $600b QE. Yes, he will be buying more than Treasury will be selling for the next seven months. But right after that Timmy G. will have at least another trillion and a half of wood to chop over the following eighteen months.
The old adage of “Don’t fight the Fed” is probably wise as you look at their massive buy program. But after a few months we are going to get numb to the constant POMO operations. At around that same time people will be looking at the Fed’s dwindling buying power and the wave of supply around the corner. The news on taxes today just makes the problem worse. Would you lend those prolific spenders your reserves? At a negative return?"(snip)
If this White House announcement is indeed true, then the issue of angry middle class and rich income tax paying voters immediately becomes a non-issue for the next two years ( where the same issue will be resurrected just in time for the 2012 election ). In the meantime, not extracting additional dollars out of middle class pockets and small businesses will probably 'reduce the downward slope' of America's economy in 2011 and 2012. It's also probably a good thing, at least in the short term, for girls trying to sell 'luxury' services like lap dances to middle class / businessmen club customers.
However, not enacting ( post-GWB tax cut ) increases in personal income taxes / Alternative Minimum taxes for two years will also exacerbate the deficit problem ... leaving about the only truly effective means of dealing with the ongoing ( but perhaps slower growing ) deficit being the FED's QE2 money printing dollar devaluation scheme, plus a patchwork of specific cuts in gov't spending levels most likely based on cutting those constituent groups who are most likely to support democrats in 2012 in any case. Again not wanting to swing too far toward the policital, but abandoning the shared economic 'pain' commission recommendations in favor of 'poll driven' selective cuts ( or non-cuts ) now appears to be at the heart of the issue. Of course it still remains to be seen if the White House can actually convince a democratic dominated 'lame duck' congress to pass GWB tax cut / AMT fix extensions that will primarily benefit a constituent base of swing voters who could vote either way in 2012 ( and who will be less likely to vote republican if they don't see a huge democrat congress driven tax withholding increase from their paychecks next January ).
Put simply, the white house 'rolling over' on the supposedly bi-partisan debt reduction recommendations this early in the game puts the kiss of death on any 'high road' attempt to share economic 'pain' fairly and proportionately. Stand by for some very vocal battles as the special interests and narrow constituent groups fight to make sure that someone else gets hit with gov't spending cuts while their own bowls of gravy remain undisturbed. However, this move WILL avoid a lot of potential future American rioting in the streets for the next 2 years at least.
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Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
I think it's unlikely but that the only possibility for a realistic solution will rely on the American people getting fed up and refusing to be duped by special interests and corporate controlled media. If they can take the anger, emotion and hostility that is currently used to bash those who don't agree with them and direct it towards those that are using manipulation and divisivness to further their own interests, we might have a shot.
I think this deficit commission is a great first step and that if the focus of "the people" starts to be on making sure that politicians, groups and media outlets working towards fair (or as close as possible) sacrfice and un-biased reporting get rewarded and those working towards divisivness, avoiding sacrifice (or taking advantage of other's sacrifice) and biased-reporting get punished- that things could play out nicely. This is of course a pipe-dream and human nature will make it all but an impossibility, but it is theoretically possible
After reading Mel's last post, for us to have any chance of turning things around on an economic level as well as keep our status as ONE country, it's going to be necessary to start shifting from an "Us-Them" and back to a "We" mentality. Both sides will have to stop finger pointing, labeling and assessing blame and the vast majority of attention and energy will have to be focused on reasonable and rational compromise and sacrifice. Definitely a tall order.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
One positive in the Debt Reduction proposal : NO VAT Tax.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
Inflation is already here, at least for the little people:
There might not have been a second round of quantitative easing, if Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke shopped at Walmart.
A new pricing survey of products sold at the world’s largest retailer [WMT 53.995 -0.345 (-0.63%) ] showed a 0.6 percent price increase in just the last two months, according to MKM Partners. At that rate, prices would be close to four percent higher a year from now, double the Fed’s mandate.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimboe7373
I think it's unlikely but that the only possibility for a realistic solution will rely on the American people getting fed up and refusing to be duped by special interests and corporate controlled media. If they can take the anger, emotion and hostility that is currently used to bash those who don't agree with them and direct it towards those that are using manipulation and divisivness to further their own interests, we might have a shot.
When the french have more balls to march out on the streets over two years on their retirement plan than we do with all the BS going on, it certainly paint's the common American as the abject coward.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^ well, there has been a bit of 'pushback', but for every publicized case of protest there are probably 10 unpublicized closet deals to lock in future gravy train benefits ! And even when there IS pushback, even high level pushback, that's no guarantee that anything will actually change !!!
(snip)"NJ School Superintendent Bitches about Making $175,000 a year, Gov. Christie says “Let Me Help You Pack” (snip)
(snip)"NorthJersey.com has more details in Governor sets sights on Seitz contract
Last week the Parsippany-Troy Hills Board of Education voted 6-2 to renew Superintendent LeRoy Seitz's contract, which included a 2 percent per year salary increase.
What made the contract noteworthy, aside from the dozens of people that spoke out against it and the tongue lashing the Board and the Superintendent received from Gov. Chris Christie was that the contract Seitz is currently working under doesn't expire until July 1, 2011.
The Board began contract negotiations during the summer, at about the same time the Christie administration released information about a plan to cap chief administrator's salaries and tying the numbers to the enrollment in the district.
By finalizing the contract now the Board effectively agreed to give Seitz a salary well above the governor's proposed cap for almost five years.
At the Board meeting Mark Tabakin, the Board attorney, told the gathering of about 90 people that the cap is still in the proposal form, that the contract was approved by the County Executive Superintendent Kathleen Serafino and that it is a legal action. "People are upset," he acknowledged, "but it's up to the will of the Board."
The controversial contract drew township residents and protesters from as far away as Clifton and Hackettstown, who were outraged over the Board's end run around the proposed cap.
At times the dissenters were so vocal Board President Anthony Mancuso, who remained calm and in control throughout the proceedings, had to call for a 10-minute recess to let the outbursts subside. The police were also called during one of the breaks though they never had the need to take action.
When the public was allowed to speak the floodgates opened. Taking a sarcastic tact the first speaker Roman Hoshovsky said, "How can anyone be expected to live on $200,000?" Then he produced an empty canister and proposed using it as a collection jar in businesses around town to raise money for Seitz.
Barbara Hackling pointed out the Board had laid off teachers and refused to negotiate with the paraprofessionals, "but found money for him."
Karen Blunt, a 36-year Parsippany resident and a paraprofessional in the district said, "He [Seitz] is looking out for his future. I haven't had a raise in 4 years who is looking out for my future?"
The day before the meeting Seitz is quoted in the Daily Record as saying, "Because of the proposed salary caps, I have to look at my future and the financial welfare of my family. I certainly would have options if I didn't feel the compensation in this district, or New Jersey, is appropriate."
The governor reacted to Seitz's veiled threats to leave New Jersey and go to a nearby state where there is no state salary. "I will say in response to Mr. Seitz, 'Let me help you pack.' We have real problems in our state that we have to fix and we don't have the time, nor the money, nor the patience any longer for people who put themselves before our citizens," Christie railed.
I Applaud LeRoy Seitz
A tip of the hat goes to LeRoy Seitz for being such an arrogant SOB that that the meeting to discuss the new contract overflowed with citizens fed up with school board greed.
It is not easy standing up to thugs who want nothing more but to raise your taxes. But the voters did. That's how riled up they were.
I recommend voters in the Parsippany School District send a message to the ignoramuses who agreed to give LeRoy Seitz a new contract. Vote them off the school board.
Fortunately it takes approval from another level to agree to that raise, so the raise is not a done deal yet.
New Jersey taxpayers are fed up, and rightfully so. If LeRoy Seitz thinks he can get $212,000 elsewhere, more power to him. The same holds true for every public "servant". If you can get more in the private sector, shut up and do it."(snip)
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I would re-emphasize that, despite the very vocal public protests and negative publicity, it's entirely possible that the duly elected school board will still be able to pull off the new $212k a year 5 year contract with guaranteed annual 2% pay raises for Mr. Seitz ! Thus the real bottom line here is that when members of gov't effectively control the purse strings determining their own paychecks, there will NEVER be a mutually agreeable resolution !!! Instead, the unhappy school district protesters get their 15 minutes of protesting 'fame', followed by a school tax increase to fund Mr. Seits' bloated salary for the next 5 years !
And who is going to vote out the incumbent school board to stop future repeats ... the parents of the 50+% of school district students that currently receive low income / free school lunches who also don't actually pay school taxes ( via Section 8 and other rent / housing subsidies ) ? The unionized teachers and unionized service businesses that depend on the school district for future paychecks ? IMHO this cycle will only be broken when the school district tax rates become so oppressive that there aren't enough remaining solvent businesses and higher earning unsubsidized taxpayers to tax !!! And if / when that happens, if California is any example, the school district will simply reach out to a wider group of state taxpayers for a 'bailout'. And when the entire state reaches the point of not having enough remaining solvent businesses and higher earning unsubsidized taxpayers it will in turn reach out to an even wider group of national taxpayers for a 'bailout' !
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Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
more details courtesy of CNN ...
(snip)" the co-chairmen propose simplifying the tax code, while lowering rates. They would also eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax (a.k.a. the crazy-making-calculate-your-taxes-twice-to-see-if-you-owe-more tax).
In exchange, their proposal calls for a reduction -- or the complete elimination -- of the hundreds of tax deductions, credits and exemptions in the code.
Tax breaks reduce the amount of revenue the government takes in by more than $1 trillion a year, much of which comes from just a few of the biggest and most popular ones like the mortgage interest deduction.
Many experts regard tax breaks as a stealth form of spending. That's because the lost revenue doesn't appear anywhere on the federal budget. And once a break is passed into law, it's rare that anybody reviews its effectiveness.
"They're unsustainable. They have no oversight. And they really cost this country a bundle," Simpson told CNN.
Still, as the co-chairmen know all too well, removing them will elicit all sorts of "shrieking," as the ever-tart-tongued Simpson has put it many times. Tax breaks are enjoyed by many powerful special interests -- to say nothing of many Americans.
Fewer breaks = lower rates
Bowles and Simpson offer two options that slash tax breaks. And by doing so, they can lower income tax rates.
In their "zero plan" option, breaks are eliminated altogether. Under that scenario, individual income tax rates -- which they reduce from six brackets to three -- can fall substantially.
For instance, the lowest two rates (10% and 15%) could fall to 8%. The middle two rates (25% and 28%) could drop to 14%. And the top two rates (33% and 35%) could drop to 23%.
The corporate rate, meanwhile, could drop to 26% from 35%, to make it more attractive for companies to invest in the United States.
On the other hand, of course, lawmakers could choose to retain tax breaks. But the fewer they prune, the less rates can be lowered.
The second option from Simpson and Bowles, building on a bipartisan proposal in Congress, would reduce the mortgage interest deduction. The tax break would apply only to the first $500,000 of a loan on one's primary residence, about half of what counts today.
The second option would also repeal the state and local tax deduction and various other itemized deductions.
Individual tax rates under that plan would be 15%, 25% and 35%.
Another big proposed change under both reform plans would affect investment income. Capital gains and dividends, which are currently taxed at 15%, would be taxed as ordinary income -- that is, at higher rates.
More revenue on tap
The Simpson-Bowles tax reform options would raise an estimated $80 billion in additional revenue in 2015 and $160 billion by 2020. Their plan overall would cap federal revenue at 21% of GDP.
Who exactly will be paying in all that extra revenue? A specific break-out by income groups is still in the works.
It is likely that more people would end up with higher -- rather than lower -- tax bills, a commission staffer said. But he also noted that the revised tax code would probably be more progressive.
No one will like paying more, of course. But the staffer said the comparison shouldn't be to what someone is paying today but rather to what that person is likely to pay in the future if no changes to the tax code or to the federal balance sheet are made.
Translation: Taxes are going up one way or the other. The question is will those higher taxes be levied in a system that is widely considered to be outdated, overly complex and highly inefficient, or in a system that is simpler and smarter?"(snip)
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Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
Apparently social engineering by taxes is coming to an end.
Re: Is today's rioting / striking in Europe coming to America soon ? ( US Debt Propos
^^^ A. that's a whole 'nuther subject, and B. we haven't actually seen what sort of debt reduction proposal the 'lame duck' congress might actually cook up. However, the comment by the commission staffer about future tax brackets being 'even more progressive' would tend to indicate that social engineering via tax rates is still alive and well !