About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
I write here about -The Collective- post by Bambalina in Camming Connection, since I have no access to write in Camming Connection, being not a cam girl but instead a evil male cam site boss, and not even American (seems this matters too for someone in forum, heard bad of adultwork being british lol).
Despite being part of the most hated enemies of the cam girls which is the cam sites (!?!?) I am stubborn enough to wish to write stuff there, believe it or not, just to help. I can not answer anymore directly as cam stuff is moved at cammiong connection, I'll write here (I got already a post censored LOL). Any certified cam girl is free to copy & paste my stuff in The Collective- post by Bambalina in Camming Connection, I would appreciate, or no, I mean I don't expect I just am a persistent guy.
Now about this whole collective stuff, I sympatyze with it (believe it or not). And I wished to see this site of models up and running, as my issue of competitors is not small sites but the big ones you all well know. I mean there is no reason whatsoever why a small cam site guy would be against this project from models - of course would be threatening for big sites esp. certain ones who caused the complaints and need for collective site.
The situation it is different from stuff such as this good movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1371155/ We Want Sex (2010) / Made in Dagenham (original title), that I advice you to see. It is about unfair policy to pay women less then man despite doing same job in same factory, just because they are women. The women stop work and factory miss pieces and no choice than raise salary, then made into a law (in UK).
There the cam girls are not all in same city and working in same building like in this movie and in unions and stike situations, there are many sites and also each women is on different city or country and not even in touch each other, so if a model not accept 30% pay or free shows, others will do and the sites keeps up always. A strike would work in a specific strip club, it happened and there is a movie too about it, striking strippers.
So unfortunately the strike possibility from cam girls (i.e. most of them boicott sites unless raise % of pay or remove free sex shows) it is limited just because girls are too dispersed across the world and very little linked. The existence of a site run by the models which is successful in terms of traffic i.e. customers, but pay big % and other dreamy features, would instead be quite a threat as even models you not know would all switch to such site, leaving the less models-oriented sites with less models and finally less biz, like with a strike.
So I believe if a dreams-for-models site run by models existed and especially had as much traffic of members as the current big sites, then the current big sites should adapt or die, paying more the models and so on.
The post of collective was mostly about technical setup of a site, cost it $5k or $10 or what it costs (and who owns it - bambalina say quite socialist way, no one and everyone, but this is secondary). I am also on Bambalina forum camgirls united and it is basically dead since july but discussion was there also about how the site should be in practice, pay or features.
Let's assume you get a gift from anonymous source for $10k or even easier you get a working site completely setup for free, with keys and instructions in hand. Completely working and hosting cost prepaid for a year whatever the traffic you do, made exactly as you decided in forum, with instructions how to run it and even let's say admins working for free.
and let's have 100 or even 1000 girls registered, so you have the girls too, so you have a site that looks no less then any big and complete one except for the fact there is no one member and no one knows of it except the models.
Then there the real issue starts, unless you have lots of cash, and there the million dollar "joke" comes in.
continue later
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Of course if you have not a cam site, you do steps and first you focus on having one (software, design, billers, contracts, help pages). However I can tell you that the software and hosting is like 5% of expense of a cam site, especially now that there are ready-made script and that hosting is so cheap - compared with 10 years ago when I started and cam sites seemed magic to do and heavy to host (unsure if you know, but streamate it was an hosting company before and still it is, had more servers then it could sell then used that investment for own stuff).
There are pre-made cam scripts that sell for prices from $2k to $10k, most small and mid-size sites can be setup with $5k to 10k including design and customization from those scripts. If you search well with google you can even find who sell the script for some sites you worked on (of course MFC, SM are custom - but camworld, camwithher etc. you can reach their developer and they can sell a license to you too for 5k - 10k or so, of course without their customizations). Totally custom it is not very advisable why to reinvent the wheel if wheels are sold in bulk. About hosting I can tell that small to mid cam sites can do it with 4-5 servers for $2k or $3k per month hosting which is frankly a joke if compared with advertising cost worth filling few servers of traffic.
What I say it is, you should consider now at early stage all the steps needed until the final stage, and setup the site it is not the cost or complication here, if you have few $$ to give to professionals who have done sites for others (beware of who claims he can but have not working sites to show! Ask what cam site(s) he made before to accept his offer).
So the question is, after you have the site up and running, how you bring there enough paying customers from day 1, and at same time how you keep enough models online there despite they not get as much sales as they need.
Some sites who pay 80% exists, isn't skinvideo one? But there are so few models and I read here commebnts from o,dels that they gave up as too few boys. Then no girls why the boys whould not quit too.
What I mean is that sites with high % pay already exist and existed before but they either kept super small or been basically boicotted by models not for low pay or bad rules but simply as not enough $$ made as not enough paying guys there.
So for the whole site to work you need a way to bring guys (buy traffic = money you invest) and in meantime keep the girls there until not enough guys (pay minimunm hourly? bonus? = money you invest).
If you want models to earn in site $X per day first month, you can not expect the advertising needed will cost less than 5 times this $X - of course after 5 months you have the previous members still there and paying so they all sum up and you end up spending in ads no more then what models do, but 5 months of ads for 100 models it can be $10,000's or more likely $100,000's, pardon me.
Also if you pay the models 80% or more, and biller take 5% to 10% minimum, then for adverts you have 10% only from income (considering it is a union site so no income, no profit org, all re-invested) so you have $100,000 to spend in adverts each $1 million the models should earn, so each your advert should bring 10 times the sales it costed, and within few months, and the only traffic source I know so good it is stealing customers out of streamate and the such, not by banners or blogs or so - but then each model can steal own guys from sites already and do skype and be paid in zombaio with not even a site.
So let's assume you have a way to pay low the paying customers traffic - then you could simply be an affiliate webmaster and send same traffic to cam sites who pay big the affiliates (it is the same ones who pay low the models) and make more money then as a model. Just an example. What I mean it is that to test if a new site can be up, you should do a test with an existing site, to send traffic there as affiliate and see if you can "launch" such other site with your traffic, then you can launch your one too. You test with $100 of adverts how much sales you do in any cam sites, then you know if you want X sales on your new cam site you need $X money in adverts, and there it is where (by experiment) in the forums (those of webmasters as GFY) someone said one million dollar and there I agreed, saying $500k possible too, this is for a 6 months launch would be $100k a month all of adverts. Note mid size tubes ask $30k per month for popunders placement, just as example you could buy just these for 3 tubes, if talk of tubes, not that massive still. If buy banners in member areas of pay sites that's also thousands dollars a month each. Banner networks and so on. There are many ways to buy traffic, but is not gifted really.
So at the moment I think a collective site can be setup easily enough with under $10k, but then for launch you need traffic and this would cost more than a collective can think to afford, if purchased.
What models could do it is to steal i.e. move best guys from cam sites into that collective site, a form of strike (or more likely a breach of contract with sites), but this would require constant stealing of customers from cam sites and if models are busted one by one when discovered, with time these would be all banned models in every site except the own collective one, so traffic of new users would decrease too much. If site would pay lower % the models to have more to reinvest in adverts it could keep up on its own, but the issue it is, it would pay too low the models :)
Then you would have yet another site mostly like others.
Note that I seen many sites launched by non-models and failed (i.e. no guys then no girls then site lonely). I am not saying there that cam girls can not run a site as good as others! Others have run bad enough the sites, at least planned wrong as failed, I say cam girls are not safe from planning good as others.
Also not necessarity should the proudness let you avoid to talk or deal with anyone related to cam business. Not everyone may want to help, but someone who have successfully enough setup and run a site may give information or more. Further why don't you buy an existing site that is not so known, and revamp it. I hear often of cam sites for sale in forums, it may cost less then buy/develop from scratch.
I mean skip quick and cheap to the step of having a working cam site, then next there is the step of how to get paying guys in it, and there it is where I would focus as soon as possible, as it decides it all.
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
As usual my friend, you look at things as they WERE, not how they ARE.
Most cam-site owners are terrible at getting traffic, it is just the truth. They may be able to get millions of hits, but they are terrible at targeting,
Anyone who spends their cash on Tube traffic is dumb. There are many much better ways to get traffic, and if you, and other cam-site owners are unaware of them, then shame on you. Tube traffic is TGP traffic, only worse.
Will I take some tube traffic? Sure...for FREE...Will I take TGP traffic? Sure...for FREE...But if I am spending the money would otherwise be paying my models, it will be for seriously targeted traffic.
Did you ever think that seriously, Streamate could put a VERY effective (unlike the SHIT they made) Informercial on nationwide and late night, and bring in FAR more targeted traffic, than the money they spend on Tubes.
The only useful expensive traffic these sites get is from affiliates, and Stream is KNOWN to cheat and use their OWN employees as affiliates who have an advantage. So they compete with their own affiliates ad cheat them so they can keep MORE of the pie.
And the tube traffic, they have "one hand washes the other" deals with the big ones and the traffic costs them NOTHING.
If we choose to, an all-girl-run cam-site can do the same...for sure. So your huge costs drop with every sentence I write, and in the end, I believe that I, who have done promotions for years on MANY different levels, know more than cam-sites who throw bushel baskets of shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks. (and the truly phenomenal thing is the absolutely ridiculously low amount that actually does...but as we both know, the big three don't worry as much about bandwidth). It has become the norm that we expect that our sites will have buckets and buckets of freeloaders for every ONE paying customer. Ridiculous doesn;t even cover it. In any other types of site I was promoting, if I brought them that much entirely useless and problematic traffic, which just sucked away bandwidth by re-loading the page again and again, I would be fired so fast my explanation wouldn't even get past the word "But..", and so when cam-site people and even cam-girls discuss this, you must excuse me, who promoted live shows, straight websites, and other things in the straight world, as well as using truly alternative means to promote cam-girls, adult sites, myself, and other things that my husband promoted, if I seem to pooh-pooh the discussion and still think I can do this without much trouble, since I already have in MANY other areas, and this one seems actually easier in general. I won't go into why, since I believe (and maybe I'm crazy, who knows) that I have a truly unique nsight into how this works and how to get traffic at levels others never even approached, both in numbers and quality of traffic.
Want to hire me? I'm NOT cheap.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bambalina
Most cam-site owners are terrible at getting traffic, it is just the truth. They may be able to get millions of hits, but they are terrible at targeting,
The only useful expensive traffic these sites get is from affiliates, and Stream is KNOWN to cheat and use their OWN employees as affiliates who have an advantage. So they compete with their own affiliates ad cheat them so they can keep MORE of the pie.
Want to hire me? I'm NOT cheap.
B
That most cam sites died because failed to get traffic.. it is what I said, and you just confirmed. But I am not considered a failed site, so maybe I done different, I mean if the site is up from years it can not be so wrong.
The affiliates traffic is of course the best because you pay only for guys who pay, it is impossible to be in loss and you risk nothing. But I not even talked of it because to convince affiliates to promote your site instead of others would require you to give $300 per sigunup or 50% rev share to them, and so the models again gets too few. MFC rely only in small part on affiliates and this is why can pay 50% instead of 35%. So the girls-owned-site should give nothing to affiliates to pay girls 80%+, except if girls are the affiliates (steal guys from other sites into this one), but this steal a guy offer is available in most sites already, including mine, if model bring the guy she gets 80%+.
The miracle to do there for what I understand, it is that the $$ goes to the model mostly (80%?) and not to a site owner (would not exist) and not to affiliates (would not exist, unless is the models themselves).
My guess is that a site paying more then 60% would have no funds for new traffic, even if the site have no owner taking % but instead it is a cooperative thing that re-invests what's not give to models into traffic for the site itself. Some details (of feex and taxes) I told in previous posts.
I would like to gift you (and the other girls who join) a cam site setup so you can start immediately with the getting models and traffic step, as I am curious - but would look odd not being collective funded.
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChatGF
That most cam sites died because failed to get traffic.. it is what I said, and you just confirmed. But I am not considered a failed site, so maybe I done different, I mean if the site is up from years it can not be so wrong.
The affiliates traffic is of course the best because you pay only for guys who pay, it is impossible to be in loss and you risk nothing. But I not even talked of it because to convince affiliates to promote your site instead of others would require you to give $300 per sigunup or 50% rev share to them, and so the models again gets too few. MFC rely only in small part on affiliates and this is why can pay 50% instead of 35%. So the girls-owned-site should give nothing to affiliates to pay girls 80%+, except if girls are the affiliates (steal guys from other sites into this one), but this steal a guy offer is available in most sites already, including mine, if model bring the guy she gets 80%+.
The miracle to do there for what I understand, it is that the $$ goes to the model mostly (80%?) and not to a site owner (would not exist) and not to affiliates (would not exist, unless is the models themselves).
My guess is that a site paying more then 60% would have no funds for new traffic, even if the site have no owner taking % but instead it is a cooperative thing that re-invests what's not give to models into traffic for the site itself. Some details (of feex and taxes) I told in previous posts.
I would like to gift you (and the other girls who join) a cam site setup so you can start immediately with the getting models and traffic step, as I am curious - but would look odd not being collective funded.
You're adorable. You gonna be our angel investor? We'd love a FREE cam site. Think, this would show how girl power really functions. We don't even need money because we are just cute and sexy and cool!:)
All that aside, for once I agree with you. But generally I don't think we need to pay 80% overall (at least not at the start). What we need to provide is a scaled bigbox experience on the level of MFC and SM at a better rate of pay. Period. That we provide an atmosphere of cooperative function and WELCOME new women and teach them how to truly make money in this business, that we offer a place where the cam-model can finally have a new kind of mutually respectful friendship/performer-customer relationship, that we set it up as a place FOR customers, designed to cater to and lavish on the one guy we love most, the one who is able to see what this relationship is truly about.
It is sad, and I don't know how they teach web design today, but the experience of going to a site should be like walking into a store and it should have personality and make you feel something, and not just be a sterile place where women are performing on tiny screens.
THAT is the key secret of MFC, and they don't even get it. They built a place where people can come, hang out, be social, see nakedness and have a good time. Like a GOOD strip club. And now they started offering "extras", just like many strip clubs did, and just like that, they ruined the good thing, and turned it ugly and made it a place that is MUCH more hostile to women. And this my friend, opened up the whole field again. Because the guys who LIKE that atmosphere and that happy camaraderie and that TEASE, are now wandering lost again, looking for a place to go. And those guys, are CUSTOMERS.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Something I touched on in the last post. If you can give these women a camsite with LOTS of traffic that pays, and they make say 55%-65% in the style of MFC (sliding scale prices for tokens or chips or whatever) and always pays MORE than MFC by at least 5% average, then women will come.
I believe these women are smart enough (most are) that 80% doesn't wow them, it scares them, because they know you can't run a viable STARTUP and pay 80%. (The ones WOWed by 80%, QUICKLY learn that the site s always empty and is poorly programmed crap and they have NO money for anything. And they leave and end up back at MFC or SM, in a TIRED cycle that soon teaches them to take something good when it is handed to them).
However, what these women also know, and you and some others seem to miss completely is that you have no CLUE about scale.
When you are making $10k per month, it is almost impossible to keep the traffic coming using money to do so, and especially so if you are paying out 80%.
However, scale that up to $100k per week and you quickly see that the numbers become more reasonable.
Now we move to a truly bog site like MFC or more particularly Streamate, who are making $100k per DAY or a $Million per week, and the scale has changed completely, since they could still afford everything but their affiliate programs, EASILY, and have money left to burn at 80%. If they paid models even 60%, they would have $400k left over weekly to do advertising and promotions with, pay for hosting, and pay their few employees. That is $1.6 million per month....an advertising budget of $500k per month, allows them to do 4 prime time commercials on Network TV per month...run ads in every single indy paper....etc. and still have a million left over after the hosting bills are paid.
SCALE. As a little fish, you don't see how the money scales for the HUGE WHALE.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bambalina
Something I touched on in the last post. If you can give these women a camsite with LOTS of traffic that pays, and they make say 55%-65% in the style of MFC (sliding scale prices for tokens or chips or whatever) and always pays MORE than MFC by at least 5% average, then women will come.
B
B , You have mentioned previoiusly in your 'how to steal from MFC' thread, that the collective will offer one of the highest payouts thus girls will not feel any real need to steal from the collective, in fact it would be petty pointless.....
However , at 55-60% it still makes it very worthwhile to 'steal' . The only site I rarely steal from is AW , with it's 70% payout , it's barely worth the trouble of shifting guys to a payment processor which wouldn't see me come away with much more !
I would and do steal from camsites paying out 50% ( camcontacts, ifriends, and a couple of others )
I think to lure girls in with the idea of the highest colab payout , then you need to be offering somehow 70% at least with regards to payout ... based on the fact AW is thriving, with few rules, big traffic and 70% pay out . I'm not sure how many 'women WILL come' ...
People don't like to part with money , and parting with 100$ to work on a camsite offering me 60% wouldn't get my panties wet. ( of course I would be willing to do it , more out of curiosity about the business than blind faith and pm me if you ever actually NEED to make up numbers) ... But how easy is it to convince people ? How's the numbers looking are a lot of girls hopping on ?
Missy
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
I'm laughing right now :-) .. of course when I say , I 'would' steal from a site (re-above figures ) , of course I don't mean , I WILL steal from yours !!! Just weighing up the chances of you being stolen from in general !
I see how ironic my post looks, hence laughing ! '' Hey b, I'd steal from your site , PM me if you ever need me to join '
I'm sure you understand that wasn't the sentiment :) I want this to work and I'm excited to watch it unravel !
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ukmissy
I'm laughing right now :-) .. of course when I say , I 'would' steal from a site (re-above figures ) , of course I don't mean , I WILL steal from yours !!! Just weighing up the chances of you being stolen from in general !
I see how ironic my post looks, hence laughing ! '' Hey b, I'd steal from your site , PM me if you ever need me to join '
I'm sure you understand that wasn't the sentiment :) I want this to work and I'm excited to watch it unravel !
I'm laughing too...
One thing to consider, is that the "owners" don't get paid 55%-65%...I mean they get that like every other girls who is camming (and I promise, those numbers are NOT engraved in stone by any means, but are a reference...more on that later...) but the OWNERS also get a share of profits. Now we don't talk about that much, because if we do, women will make that a big selling point (and it WILL be the biggest....LATER) when at the beginning, this is a start-up business, and like most start up businesses, there will be no profits, only re-investment.
So that is where the 55%-65% comes in. At the beginning, and I mean the very beginning, we will pay whatever we have to, to be able to bring the sort of traffic that girls need to have a good working environment. For our site, it isn't about getting to 1000 girls online at once as fast as possible. It's about getting the 100-200 girls HIGH quality kickass traffic, and a LOT of it.
Also, we have plans to make it much harder TO steal from us...See, customers have to WANT to be stolen...right? How many times have we read about girls who try to steal some SM custy, and they just can;t get him to go indy with her, or move to another site that pays better...Well, imagine a site designed to make customers WANT to STAY. How yummy would it be for you? Well, that means customer retention is Job #1, unlike other sites that are looking for a fast buck and do very little to retain customers, this one will be designed from the ground up with that very premise.
Honestly, it is so NOT about the camsite expense, and more about the right programmer who GETS IT and understands the vision. Because I don't even care to be part of it, if it is "just a camsite"...It has to be an experience.
Anyway, the point is, that this will be unlike other camsites, and one of the main things that will happen, is if we're right and we retain better than those others, then as soon as word of mouth starts working, and the organic starts to grow above a trickle, and we have a steady amount coming in weekly, we bump the pay 3% permanently. Then 6 months later, when the money is coming in steady and the organics are getting nice and fat, and our grassroots promo stuff is paying off, we bump it 5% more....And the outcome we want is that we get to 70% minimum, and I'm hoping more like 80% once we're banking enough.
But this all goes back to the numbers. When a camsite pulls in $10k a week, 80% leaves $2k ($8k a MONTH, which pays all expenses, and then pays ALL promotion) so it doesn't leave much room to wiggle and won't be getting us a million hits a month. But if ladies are willing to go for 55%-60%, that leaves $4k+ per week, (expenses stay the same) and $16k per month. I can get us some pretty damn good traffic for that money and make all of our homegrown efforts work MUCH better. So it is need, and it is what is good for the camgirls, not what is good for the owners greed. And were gonna let the cam models know EXACTLY how that money is being spent. So they know that Missy and Bam and the rest of the OWNERS aren't taking any salary or profits except what they cam for (and since I don't generally cam directly anymore like that, I will be working for FREE for the first month minimum. Second or third month I might ask for a small salary if I am working my ass off), and if traffic is growing as I expect it will, this will all change very quickly.
Because a camsite with makes $100k per week is a VERY different animal. Now we pay the girls 65% and we still have $35k per week to work with. Our bandwidth an all that goes up, but not NEARLY as much as our income. Lets say everything can be paid out for $20k per month...and lets even be generous and say $40k....That leaves us $100k for traffic. I can generate a fucking LOT of traffic for $100k per month.
Now the site gets huge, and we are actually doing say 33%-50% of what a MFC or a SM does..We're now making quite a bit over $1Million per month. We pay say, 72% average...our expenses are like $50k per month, and we spend $150k on promotions, and keep about $150k for the partners to split. Each $100 share now pays $1500 per month....If you were smart and bought 5, you noe cam for fun because you don't have to anymore. And that is just the beginning of the ride, because if you run the numbers honestly on MFC and SM, it will boggle your mind.
Just think 500 girls on (SM sometimes has like 1700 and the lowest I've seen is like 400, so 500 is really conservative as an average) making an average of $20 an hour (and we all know the top 10% are averaging SO MUCH more than this, that even if the bottom 30% make NOTHING, it will average $20 per hour...SLEEPING girls average $20) So, that is $10k per hour. $240k per day, $1.68Million per week. $7.2 million per month. CONSERVATIVE figures. And they pay out 35% ($2.53Mill) and probably even another $1.5M to Affiliates. Leaving then $3.2Million PLUS to work with for promo and profit....VERY CONSERVATIVELY. And some people ACTUALLY defend their pay scale....:O
MFC...well, about the same, but see, MFC is a weird animal, because they pay out 55ish% so lets say they make the same 7 mill, they pay out ABOUT $4mill...leaving 3.2mill and they have no affiliates to pay...just the free tokens they almost never actually give out that many of. So MFC figured out an extremely logical and intelligent and seemingly obvious way to pay their girls MUCH better, and still keep almost the exact same amount as SM.
So, now it is up to us to take that one step FURTHER. And I believe the only way to do that IS with a cooperative venture where the women own the company.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Now, all of that is a silly fun little exercise, but it shows how the camsite hump, or mountain is a tough one, but once you get over the top and into the perpetual motion "It's gonna grow no matter what we do!" part of things....this becomes a whole different animal, and that is what, if it is done well, a collective/cooperative has a HUGE advantage in.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bambalina
However, what these women also know, and you and some others seem to miss completely is that you have no CLUE about scale.
LOL thanks :)
Before to have my cam site I worked for bigger one(s) so I seen things at bigger scale, I can not tell for who I had worked due to contract confidentiality, but sure I seen how it is stuff at big scale, and I try get big scale (like everyone else) because we know it become easier when big. Staying small for long simply make a cam site bankrupt and lonely.
However between the zero scale new site and the big scale goal there's the small scale and it can last months or more likely years. You say it would be no profitable even paying 55% "only", so you need an amount of cash to invest (in loss) for all this period to buy traffic - even if magically cheap and good quality - still $$ cash reserve to spend. Let it not be a million or even half million but even if it is $100k you still need $100k to invest (trash) into the site the few monts, after it is setup and working.
I simply said I do not believe a site can grow in size only because it is smart and fair, even facebook got $500 million from a bank at one early point, first kickstart needs cash too.
About who it is already in big scale.
Of course sitting on one of the top 5 or top 3 cam sites you have the scale and if pay 35% only the models, and the traffic other 30% (let it buy much), there is profit left for lots $$, but also consider these big sites all have 2 to 5 shareholders so have to split in 2 to 5 and this may be why the thing looks greedy. Let's say an owner is happy with 5% net, but there is 3 owners this is 15% already, as example.
Lots new camsites are in reality spinoffs from big cam sites, for example livejasmin's original owners (and their brother's etc.) generated then 2 or 3 other smaller sites; ifriends people split and made camcontacts and so on, and I also ended up splitted and independent to avoid divide income with many others. Even if 10% "only" each owner, you are 2 or 3 you eat a 30%, so a cam site paying big the models should have a single owner who is not greed, and this did not happened yet for big sites.
Actually no one of the top 5 cam sites have a single owner, if I am exact, this is also because a single owner hardly had enough $$ alone cash to waste it all first months & years to kick start the site into big size. It is the same for every field, you see big companies mostly have several shareholders and to have them all eat enough, make a greedy company.
We can say if bambalina magically wake up as single owner of SM she would most probably change it all, but probably if SM owners became 1 owner only and with no obligations with any partner or investor, could also save lots of % and pay more the models (theorically), it is all like what if I win a lottery or, would we speak german if we lost WWII.
We are instead talking of a site simply and I warn on the cash pile you need extra to the setup after site it is working, to kickstart it first months when in loss and no users, no matter it is super smart. To make money you need money (too), unfortunately this applies to internet too, despite somenoe may think internet it is different.
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
5 guys splitting $1million per week are still greedy assholes if they pay 35%....they could make $100k per month each and pay 50%....
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
I agree. If you are making $1 million, you can afford to pay a higher rate. 35% and less is not only fair, but just robbery. Yes I understand the site has a budget to pay staff, and to advertise, but 35% ??? Come on!
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
And let me go off track here for a moment anf follow-up that post up there.
I think you have more like 750 performers on average on SM, and they are AVERAGING $35 an hour.
$26,250 per hour.
$630,000 per day.
$4.4MILLION per week
$18+Million per month. - 35% = $11,466,000
Up it to 1000 performers average, and you get:
$35,000 per hour.
$840,000 per day.
$5.88MILLION per week
$25Million per month. - 35% = $16,380,000
and even if HALF of those numbers goes each month to affiliates and promotions. Realize that would be $5.7Mill in example one, and $8.19mill in example 2 left over for the few owners. MONTHLY. Not YEARLY.
So a DECENT camsite will make money at a level where all this talk of promotion and shit, on the scale we're discussing, is ridiculous. They could afford a damn super-bowl commercial.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bambalina
$25Million per month. - 35% = $16,380,000
and even if HALF of those numbers goes each month to affiliates and promotions. Realize that would be $5.7Mill in example one, and $8.19mill in example 2 left over for the few owners. MONTHLY. Not YEARLY.
B
SM is big but not 35 million per month. Also 6% or more is eat by the biller even at at big sites. Also they may pay 15% for all european union customer due to VAT (who does not make it can get fined, streamrat/cams.com/aff got $80 million fine for not pay it), then hosting at a SM or MFC level can be some $100k's a month. Then they may pay some tax on profix (islands are cute but can cheat up to a degree). Admins and employees, accountants and laywers, maybe an office for bigger sites. Then finally split with other owners, it can be even less then a million per year left, who knows. Ok not so small, I made it dramatic, but believe who run now 2 sites and had run several before with and for others, the cam sites net profit may be 10%-20% no more, and for sites doing less then 100k per month the risk to have NO profit but instead loss is there every month, because no scale and fixed costs are same.
This is why sites who pay 70% or more have no traffic (and at times not even admins - is like a self service) and those who pay 35% have lots of traffic and lots of admins who bust you as soon as you try to steal the customer out. It is true that more the site is big and more the income % is possible for scale economy, but you have to become big before and you can't if you pay 70% or more, unless you have lots of cash ($100,000's I would say) to invest it all in advertising the first months, in complte loss - then in hope it picks up and then break even and even do profit in a future. Issue is that the models will not stay in sites who pay 70% or more but no traffic, and traffic not sticks in sites with no models.
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChatGF
SM is big but not 35 million per month. Also 6% or more is eat by the biller even at at big sites.
My math is sound my friend. Go there at 4am USA time and there is 700 online performers. Go at 7-10pm USA time and there is often 1500. So if my averages and my income projection are fair (and I believe $20 an hour is WAY fair), then my numbers are LOW, if anything. The final projection is MUCH closer to what reality probably is. And 6% for a company doing multi-millions per week? No way...Even Zombaio does it for 4.9% if you do better than $75k per week...If you are doing a $mill, I bet you can get it around 3.5% or less.
But this thread is not about SM, and we can argue that in another thread.
For now, I am saying something, and you miss my point. It is that talking about MFC or SM costs and procedures and so on, when we're discussing a START-UP business, is useless. Because it is like comparing to your local diner or pizza place to McDonalds Corporation, or Pizza Hut or something. It just doesn't work, it isn't the same ballpark, and it isn't even the same SPORT.
So lets look down here.
Quote:
This is why sites who pay 70% or more have no traffic (and at times not even admins - is like a self service)
I disagree completely, that is not the reason (or not NEARLY all of the reason) for the 70% sites being shit . Now, let me say up front, that paying 70% in the first 3-6 months, might be impossible if the women want MAJOR traffic to be able to get the site up and flying...I admit that. But there is a HUGE difference between 70%-80% and 30%-35%...most people leave out that there is a compromise position at say 50% or even 55% like MFC. Or lets beat MFC and START at 60%, with a guarantee, that if the site makes money, it all goes to the models until such time as the pay reaches 70%...Something like that. So to say you must be SM at 35% or Crazy McCrazy at 80% is false...and my point about these others is that once the business takes off and is making millions per week, they could raise the rate for models and lock the market up MUCH better. They are what I like to call so smart they outsmart themselves and end up stupid.
Quote:
unless you have lots of cash ($100,000's I would say) to invest it all in advertising the first months, in complte loss - then in hope it picks up and then break even and even do profit in a future. Issue is that the models will not stay in sites who pay 70% or more but no traffic, and traffic not sticks in sites with no models.
This is something discussed many times, and it is very much the key to cam-sites. You MUST have the chicken and the egg in the same place at the same time, the chicken CAN'T come before the egg, because it just doesn't work, and it doesn't matter whether custys or models are chicken or egg...Because the key is that both have to be in the same place at the same time. We are totally agreed on that.
Lastly, the sites that pay 70%-80% or even the indy sites. Did you ever really follow them and do some research? I mean, I do this stuff and I poke around a lot, and my husband...forget it...he is a mad man for finding stuff....And what I notice is that it tends to be that the sites that are big pay, are also very small on promotion...but they are also stupidly small on the promotions which are FREE. All the linking sites and cam listing sites and blogs who will list you for free, and all the other things any amateur webmaster knows can bring hundreds of thousands of hits, I never see those cam sites listed there...Plus they don't do the things of self promotion that even a blogger knows...So while your idea that these sites have less traffic is true, they also always seem to have less advertising than they could. On top of this, like I said, for $1000 per month, I can do 250k in traffic that is MUCH more targeted than crappy tube traffic. So what happens if I put 100-200 girls on a cool unique camsite, and bring them 250k in good traffic the first week or 2? I don;t know of any of these other sites that do this...so they fail..because they get curious girls to come and they don;t have traffic for them when they get there, and by the time they get desperate enough to bring the traffic by paying for it, it doesn't matter because all the girls are back MFC and SM.
I do promotion. I love it! And I so believe I can bring in traffic in LARGE amounts for MUCH less than most do it, especially because we have a unique product in a cam-site owned and operated by beautiful women. Sadly my friend, we will get free advertising you would die for. Because people find beautiful women interesting.
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bambalina
Sadly my friend, we will get free advertising you would die for. Because people find beautiful women interesting.
B
Beautiful naked women :)
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Reading camming connection (not my fault the pages are open and readabie) I see SupaByoch wants me terminated even in this section where I can write:
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As for ChatGF, I do believe he is actually mocking this whole topic, rather than supporting anyone here. Also how long will he be allowed to post about stuff discussed in the section for camgirls before he gets the hammer???
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I remind you that one my threads was censored already, it vanished. Another I was writing into was moved in cc where I can't answer. So I do not see having special privileges or protection really.
About I am not supporting anyone, may you tell me how I could do different to support someone? Is there any way you could think I do anything good, given you know I am no cam girl? Some model was talking about how it is to run a cam site and since I run a few, I gave some of info from experience, for free. At times I am hired and paid good money to give the very same information, as a consultant. How giving on topic information in a forum it can be an issue or offense someone I don't know, except if something is proven false or misleading, but I wonder what I would gain? Do you wonder why no other cam site guys write there in those threads? And probably someone reads only? It is because knowledge it is power and most enterpreneurs will not give it for free to any competitor. Further most cam girls will not give useful information they have to other cam girls for the same reason. I asked at times to some cam girls who made big money in small sites, why they do not tell it in the forums - they all answered: "so that lots other girls will know this secret jummping on this site so I get less private for myself?". This explains why mostly you read complaints about sites, and very rarely that it went good (except a minority of girls of course). The same you not see cam site owners going around forums to tell how to make thinks work and what is right or wrong to do.
About cherryblossomsinspring:
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Now I understand you're great pals with ChatGF. If I remember correctly, this was the same man that required his models to get nude for him as an audition before being allowed on his site. He got alot of flack for that but stated he would only hire "clueless models"So I understand people in the industry learn from one another but the women who wanted to be by your side respecting cam models and having a proven tract record of success were ignored or talked down to.
Then you went over to CGN which is also male dominated and oriented place. To me they are all laughing at the stupid women that can't get their shit together. Hell If I was a guy I would be busting up laughing at how we're all in our own way.
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I am no more pal of Bambalina then you are, I simply reply her posts here, I even told her please email me if you want talk details, instead of post it all in forum, but she never emailed me. She really is in an idealistic mission :)
As everyone pointed out, the Bambalina main issue it is that she have no site yet, and she write so long and so 1968-political way that no one can really follow or share the idea fully. I like details in discussions, but I've skipped most pages of collective too, as it is book long now (I just used a search for my name to get the above parts found).
What I have to agree you with it is, unfortunately: "Hell If I was a guy I would be busting up laughing at how we're all in our own way.".
I don't think many man are interested at bambalina threads, it is too much for people in the biz, and there is no nude pics or romance. This is why I am the only one writing there, and unlikely others will join, despite someone would like those bad man cam bosses be many pestering your forum, so you have more enemies to fight to, except bambalina.
Everyone it is in own way and that crashes with the cooperative idealism of bambalina, which it is in her own way too with coop idea itself, funny enough. However I should give credit to B for engaging in talk with everyone even with guy who "required his models to get nude for him" (by the way our castings are done by a russian woman and I have no indication she is lesbi, unsure if this is good enoigh?).
You blame B for "you went over to CGN which is also male dominated and oriented place", and for a cam boss to go over here which is female dominated and oriented. Then for you (and someone else), the whole issue it is that we talk? The best it is no communication between man and woman, boss and partners? And then how can we understand each other, let's assume someone it is in good faith?
As a side note I have a thousand models and 99.9% it is from russia, romania, ukraine, both independent or studio. They have their own cam girl forums in their languages, quite closed. I hear often western models joke the east europeans - and even seen here someone say basiclly don't work for non USA cam sites? So you sure the evil it is in cam site owners only, and the cam girls would otherwise organize, do better and not need anyone managing anything?
I use translators to read these russia and romania too, and I did not seen cooperative or such projects. This means unlikely anything will be done, this should make even more vauable the idea of making one of western girls, that then (unless racist - nationalisty- protectionist) would be international enough to give such privilege to romanians, russians to join.
But if the board of director girls would debate like in this forum (which is likely), maybe the founders would start to introduce ideas such as pay 5% less the russians because they are so many stealing jobs of westerns (SM pays 30% the russians and 35% the americans...), start to accept studio accounts sa logn as run by girls (and I can tell lots of russian studios are girl owned and directed, from ex cam girls, still keeping big % for them) and so on, ending up with all the same rules and ideas of the "man dominated" cam sites.
This is why I like to write into bambalina threads or cam girl forums in general, because I see ideas it is like reading Marx or the french revolution stuff - ok both had bloody outcomes but it was historical, who knows maybe I will be killed together with all the cam kings but will be part of history, when models taken over the cam biz :)
And yes, I am a greedy pervert who mislead and robber young naive girls by writing evil posts in forums, wow I am scared of myself all the times I see myself on the mirror :)
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
First off, as far as on a forum....we're pals...I would go that far...
Second, I'll write you an e-mail one of these days, I'm just crazy busy...I have to convince you to buy us our cam-site, don't I?
Lastly, The guys on CGN, are NOT like other guys, and I mean that as both a compliment and a serious insult...but they DO read my threads and re-post all sorts of my writings like I am some sort of Cam-Madonna-Guru-Goddess. They give me a swelled head and when I show up there to tell them off or write some shit, they almost bow down at my feet....sheesh...it's embarrassing! And I can fucking ]WAVE![ because they are reading this, and will re-post it on the site within a matter of a day or so....
This gets held against me...even though I am not close friends with them, and I go there to insult them almost as often as I go there to praise them...
Do I LIKE them? Yes. I do. I believe that while they are screwy in some ways, they are really trying better than most men to be friends to cam models...to help the situation for adult entertainers, and not to generally hurt us, and fight the anti-porn crowd. So I think the women who are mean and rude and diss them completely are silly, and to turn away allies when you are almost alone in the world, with a lot of assholes against you, is really kind of dumb.
And they DON'T laugh at us...not the way that was implied anyway...
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As far as YOU ChatGF...I feel like you are definitely unique, and I like you. I think you have some antique ideas and some stuff you argue just because you want to see what others will say, but overall I see you as very much an ally to cam-girls..
I also think that these women have such a fit about your site requiring a nude whatever, but if it is done by a woman, and if you don't perv on it...well, I wouldn't do it...But it is free choice to work for you or not, and the whole thing is funny to me, because the women get scandalized by it, yet not by the FACT that the Mods on SM have full access to privates and watch them all the time, and those mods are NOT all female...and this goes for almost EVERY site that ever existed. "Leo" (and I mean the Leo at every cam site) has FULL access to every private moment on cam EVER...but no real complaints there...and worse, hundreds of girls on here will complain, then go to work and get naked on SM, where they will steal the Private and put it up on a tube site for everyone...
So for me, if you're a cam girl, getting naked on cam s what you do...right? I mean...would any woman be scandalized if a porn producer wanted to see them naked before putting them in a movie? Would they be scandalized if you went to get a job as a cook and they wanted to taste the food you cook? It's just something for people to freak out about in my opinion...
I did agree that since they don;t work for you YET when they audition, you should pay them for ONE MINUTE of private time. But whatever...
Otherwise, I see it that You're reading an open forum, and people can get upset...but what can they really do..you could go post this on ANOTHER forum entirely and as long as Camming Connection is open to males, you can post it on your blog and no-one can say anything about it...sheesh, it all appears on Google!
Anyway...Get back to telling me about the cam-site you're going to buy for the cooperative cam-girls...
;D
B
Re: About -The Collective- post in Camming Connection
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bambalina
The guys on CGN, are NOT like other guys, and I mean that as both a compliment and a serious insult...
I also think that these women have such a fit about your site requiring a nude whatever, but if it is done by a woman, and if you don't perv on it...well, I wouldn't do it...But it is free choice to work for you or not, and the whole thing is funny to me, because the women get scandalized by it, yet not by the FACT that the Mods on SM have full access to privates and watch them all the time
LOL for the nude casting. This is a big issue for western models only, a cultural thing. Thousands models in russia and romania done it with no questions in past 6 years. A little questions from romanians, as they are more western maybe. Except local culture, think at this: if I was playboy or hustler no one western model would question a nude casting it is required! It is only a suspect who this site is. In russian cam girl forums everyone knows my site or it is already my model or know a model who worked there, and no one reported issues or non payments. So the blah blah it is just I am a moron for not taking this or that girl, given I took that other girl who is more ugly (well it can happen, beauty it is not a standard measurement), not for the casting itself being needed. Some excluded girls even ask to do casting again time to time "as I am more thin or pretty now". Oh by the way the woman doing casting it is skipping always more then a man, women judge women, you wanted it, you get it :)
About customers who care to models I have quite an experience of them as they write lots of unnecessary emails to the site. Some of them believe the girl love them but the bad site boss not allow her to be free to marry him - while such girl is independent, live with a bf and both laugh when I forward her such email. Often these delusional man's are who write of cam girl slavery in forums and send big western unions to help the poor girl who in reailty use such money to buy new motorbike to his bf or husband. While other girl who really it is trafficked not get his help, I mean the cam site customers may not be the smartest ever or they would not be in cam sites in first place. Some are not about love but act like uncles who want to help the girl but in silly ways, inculding gifting them new cams or pimping her around or buying a cam site for her (mhh but wasn't him sorry for her do this bad job and willing to help her to find a clothed one?).
This for the good guys.
And yes there are the pervs and those have the ultimate dream to become cam site admins, and this is the main issue for cam site bosses,as it is very difficult to find an admin who will not pass his personl email to all the models and send his cock pics, which is not very professional.
In many years I busted lots of my cam site admins using the private message system to pass his email and solicit contacts and so on, especially if you make an admin from a cam site customer, but new guys can learn quick too. And the girls work out the admins too, maybe they get some advantage who knows, I mean it is as natural as corruption.
Some models who worked also in other sites told me of employees of some sites who would even take in secret % on studios that they help over others, or travel to meet girls and so on - on my site I pretty control everything but I am sure would happen the same if average admins could click buttons for ranking and decide who work and who not. It was few days ago that one my model told me of a guy who contacted saying he's the admin for a certain site and need casting with toy, just the issue it is that he had nothing to do with such a site - it is those idiots who then give issues to who does the things in a decent way. I have no higher beilef in the man then the girl has, I am cynically realist, just dear girls not all the man is so interested in perv stuff the same, it can get boring to look at pussy - for someone - believe it or not.
Having female admins it can help as they have no cock but I experienced big cat fights as some women will hate another woman tell her she done anything bad!? Well in short it is way more complicated then the man is all pervs and the girls is all professional - it is a symbiosis.
Just for the trivia I never been a cam customer and not even adult sites customer, I not come from the perv side of things. I was in the biz of mainstream sites and even doing video games for kids! Then got so many adult sites as customers that I ended up working at them and setup my ones for curiosity after a divorce (had free time...). I would be largerly bored to watch all the private going on in my sites, now while writing there are a few going on (and one is couple lesbi edna+tonya lol) but I prefer write here then watch that. I prefer watch an x-men or batman movie then watch a private, there is more special effects, come on. Girls when it was a new thing in 2003 I was curious but that's long ago, it is always the same stuff. New site owners may be excited but those who do it from years, unless natural born perv, should take it easy and bounce any flirty talk due to no time. I know the cam site customers are always horny and want see and collect more porn, but those guys you not see in cam sites also exists, and they don't care to pussy on screens, and some of those with the superpower of not care to your pussy it may run cam sites for some reason, or be admins. If site it was super big I would have put all in hands of admins and doing something else with the income, sure not doing castings or watching private, or sell the site, altough I would care not to give it to a perv LOL, I would cry to see my things ruined, even if I was tired to run it myself.
Come on I spent all this time to write in a forum instead of see the pussy going in private at my site, I must not be normal.