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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
I work at Rhino & its true !!!! Health, dental & all=_)
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
^^^ now it will be interesting to see how SR winds up paying for the costs of that employee dancer health / dental insurance, as well as paying for the costs of 1/2 of the employee dancer's Social Security tax, as well as paying for the costs of the employee dancer's unemployment and disability insurance premiums. At the bottom line, the same number of club customers are bringing the same number of total dollars into the club. If a fair portion of that customer money must now be diverted towards employer insurance premiums and employer taxes, it remains to be seen how the club's income and/or the employee dancers' incomes are reduced as a result.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
^^^ ok this announcement answers a few questions but creates new questions. For example, the statement about 'entertainers' being required to sell 2-4 dances per shift does NOT state that those 'entertainers' will actually get to keep / be paid a portion of the customer money the club charges customers for those dances.
The announcement states that dancers will be able to leave with cash every night ... but implies that this cash will ONLY come from cashed in tip funny money.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
The same thing happened in Oregon in the late 90's. The clubs then had the dancers sign contracts agreeing to either be a compensated Employee or an Independent contractor. The compensated employees were paid minimum wage and had a minimum dance sales requirement for every shift. I can't remember what the exact number was, but it was pretty high. The dance sales were paid to the dancer in the form of commission of 30% or something. The dancers also got to keep all their stage tips, but had to claim them on their payroll.
So, pretty much no one went the employee route. Nothing has changed in the industry.
I'm pretty sure the employee/IC model is based on the construction industry. There are both employees and sub contractors. Sub contractors contract directly with the customer or the general contractor and are responsible for their own taxes and insurance ect. Employees can only work for general contractors and are not permitted to work directly for customers unless they are licensed sub contractors as well. Most general contractors will not hire an employee who also has his/her sub contractor's license.
Y'all just will become sub contractors. You'll probably need to get a business license (Las Vegas already requires this), but aside from that nothing will change.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
If they are required to pay 50% of every girl who is working 30+ hours premiums do you think they will stop hiring girls and or if that hurts their money let girls go??? Also the leaving with cash when received from Rhino Chips confuses me a bit. I'm looking into Rhino but never dealt with a "funny money" club. Are most your earnings in Rhino chips or cash???
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
Cam queen ,it just depends . I always encourage the customer to pay with cash and the hosts do too. Less work for them. However some customers of course just don't have it or didn't bring it so will pay with their credit card hence the funny money. I don't think they will stop hiring girls, no. I haven't been back to work since th changes happened but i am upst to see thy are taking 25 percent of funny money instead of the 10 percent it used to be. I have a customer once a month who does a bunch of hours but only uses his credit card and cannot be convincd to pay cash .... So sounds like I will lose 25 percent of that plus my tip out to the hosts. That sucks
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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If they are required to pay 50% of every girl who is working 30+ hours premiums do you think they will stop hiring girls and or if that hurts their money let girls go???
I'll give you 3 guesses regarding the answer to that question about the club's cost of health insurance premium subsidies having to be paid for 'full time' employees. Also factor in the fact that the club must now start paying disability insurance premiums and unemployment insurance premiums to state insurance funds ONLY for 'full time' dancers, which ObamaCare has now redefined as those working 30 or more hours per week. In dollar terms, limiting a dancer to 28 hour per week part time status will likely save the club $2,000+ per year in 50% 'qualified' coverage health insurance premium subsidies, as well as saving the club something like $500 per year in unemployment insurance premiums plus some additional amount for disability Insurance premiums, PER employee dancer.
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I always encourage the customer to pay with cash and the hosts do too. Less work for them. However some customers of course just don't have it or didn't bring it so will pay with their credit card hence the funny money.
Since the law requires that ALL employee dancer income be run through the employer club's payroll system, it's highly probable that employee dancers will not be allowed to deal directly with customers for routine cash transactions. The forced use of funny money provides the employer club with a way to perform the necessary employee dancer tip income documentation.
Also note that the 25% is 'estimated tax withholding' ... which the employer club pays to the IRS and credits to the employee dancer. In essence this is no different than an independent contractor dancer setting aside 25% of her income and in turn making quarterly estimated tax payments on her own.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
The dancers won 12 million in the lawsuit. How does that divide up? Is every rhino club?
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
^^^ I believe that the court decision was against a single club location. Thus SR will take a one time hit to nationwide corporate profits, and will continue operating ... but under new 'rules' that will prevent future lawsuits brought on similar legal grounds. Indeed had such a judgement been made against a privately owned single location club instead of a nationwide chain, it would have resulted in bankruptcy and a settlement totaling far less than 12 million.
Of course the $12 million is nothing to 'sneeze at', meaning that other nationwide chain clubs are undoubtedly watching closely in regard to the changes that SR is implementing ... with a strong possibility that the other chain clubs may implement similar changes before THEY are sued for another $12 million !!!
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
I was told it was because of Obamacare (and the lawsuit) .But yea we still have housefees of 80 dollars at night so they're still getting their $. & instead of taking 10% of our rhino chips they now take 25%. I usually make mostly cash anyway tho unless I'm making SICK $ and then ask for a tip anyway. A lot of the foreign girl had to go work at sapphires tho because they didn't have proper papers.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
According to my own accountant, these 'employee status' lawsuits have become more dangerous because of ObamaCare laws. In the past, a court decision finding that a club had improperly treated supposed independent contractor dancers who were working under 'employee' level club rules, schedules and work requirements, as owing the dancers 'employee' compensation ( i.e. unpaid minimum wage etc. ), a similar future finding would now also add a potential $3000 per dancer per year IRS penalty being charged to the club for failure to provide said 'employee' dancers with qualified health insurance coverage. This additional potential ObamaCare penalty could turn former lawsuits forcing clubs to pay out $1-2-3,000 each to dancers as settlements into not only the $1-2-3,000 settlement but also another $3-6-9,000 per dancer in IRS penalties ( not counting interest charges and other IRS penalty charges ).
Again, the 25% being 'taken' from your rhino chip cash-ins is not going to the club. It is going to the IRS, in the form of 'estimated tax' payments that will eventually be credited back to you when you file your annual tax return reporting the 'tip income' you earned that will also be reported via the W2 the club will issue to the IRS next January.
As to clubs 'giving' dancers the option of independent contractor treatment, in reality this is not an option that the clubowners have the authority to give. Federal and state labor laws, plus a body of federal and state DOL court decisions, versus the club rules / scheduling requirements / working conditions provided by the club, actually determine whether a dancer is working in an 'employee' capacity or not ... no matter what the clubowner decides. This in turn makes the clubowner liable for the 'wrong' treatment of dancers. And the advent of new ObamaCare related employer mandates adds significantly to the clubowners' potential future liability if the independent contractor treatment they have chosen ( which avoids the new ObamaCare health insurance mandates as well as 'employee' related mandates such as minimum wage and unemployment insurance coverage ) is, in a future court case, ruled to be 'wrong'.
Look at it from the perspective of the clubowner of a single location club with a total of 50 dancers. You choose to continue treating your dancers as independent contractors. Next year a group of dancers sue you over employee status. After 3 years worth of court calendar delays and legal gyrations, the court rules in the dancer's favor. Formerly you the clubowner would have been required to pay out something like $3,000 * 50 dancers = $150k in settlement money for unpaid minimum wage etc. ... which would probably wipe out the club's profits for the year but probably not result in bankruptcy. But now with ObamaCare penalties factored in the required payout could be the $3,000 * 50 dancers = $150,000 in settlement money to dancers for unpaid minimum wage etc. but also another $9,000 * 50 dancers = $450k in IRS penalties for failure to provide said dancers with health insurance coverage for the 3 years the court case dragged on. $600,000 in potential instantly due settlement and IRS penalty money WOULD bankrupt most clubs. So THIS is the future risk factor that many clubs will probably be 'hedging' against by transitioning dancers to 'employee' status ahead of ObamaCare's employer mandates taking effect. And in all probability, along with the transition to 'employee' status will be a weekly limit of 28 working hours to make sure that those 'employee' dancers meet the IRS penalty free / unemployment insurance premium free loophole of 'part time employee' status.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
I feel like i am missing something big here...If dancers are suing over being treated as employees with schedules and etc., why doesn't the club just start treating them as independent contractors properly? Seems like none of the girls want to be employees and its going to be a giant pain in the ass for the club too.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
Yes, that is my question, also. This is all very strange.
But it wouldn't be so bad to report. I mean, I do my taxes anyways...but the thing that really scares me is the scheduel. I mean, why the hell isn't there a part-time option? Where I work in LV you can come in when you want to, any day u want...So this makes it very easy to work other jobs and attend school, etc. One of the great things about dancing out here...so does anyone know if they will change that for ALL clubs? Or is it just for SR because of the lawsuit.
from what I understand, (and I really do not understand much about this, lol) the lawsuit at the Rhino is a seperate thing than what is happening to strip clubs with taxes and 1099's being issued....Can someone clarify this?
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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why doesn't the club just start treating them as independent contractors properly
this is a fair question. The answer should be fairly obvious though given the following realities about independent contractor status ...
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstance, clubs cannot impose set price levels that dancers must charge customers for a particular service. Thus one independent contractor dancer would be free to charge $10 per private dance while others charged $20.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose set working days or hours for dancers. Thus a club could have 2 dancers working on Monday and 100 dancers working on Friday.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot collect / retain a 'percentage' of customer money charged by dancers. The club can / must levee a fixed charge to dancers and customers for 'rent' of club facilities. This could translate into dancers being charged a relatively high fixed dollar amount nightly 'rental' fee ( where it then becomes possible for dancers who didn't sell many private dances to leave the club 'in the hole' at the end of the night ), as well as customers being charged a 'rental' fee by the club for VIP rooms etc. that is independent of amounts charged to customers by dancers for time in VIP ( i.e. the VIP customer would have to make two separate payments, one to the dancer and the other to the club ).
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose rules limiting the types of costumes dancers wear, rules limiting the types of music dancers play, rules requiring / limiting the type and number of stage dances that dancers must / can perform, rules REQUIRING that dancers 'contribute' a portion of their earnings to DJ / housemom / bouncers etc.
Putting yourself in the place of a clubowner, try to imagine just how difficult it might be to successfully operate a club ... let alone operate a CHAIN of clubs ... under the above circumstances.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
Thanks melonie...that does all make sense. though if independent contractors are really supposed to be treated that freely...wow.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
^^^ well that is an amalgamation of independent contractor versus 'employee' treatment legal points which have been previously ruled on in prior state Dept of Labor cases.
Also, besides those 'black and white' issues, there are additional issues that fall into gray areas. Consider this ... if the club is 'renting' the VIP room to private parties with no direct 'employment' relationship existing between those private parties and the club, the club may not have legal responsibility, or even a legal right, to surveil / monitor what is taking place between those private parties and/or to take action should something 'illegal' be taking place in the privacy of that rented VIP room. Also consider this ... since independent contractor dancers are not 'employees' of the club, a gray area exists as to whether the club has any legal responsibility to verify that said independent contractor dancers have legal US work status or not ( with that legal responsibility instead lying with the self-employed 'business entity' that the private contractor dancer works for ).
Bottom line regarding the whole topic is this. Up until the ObamaCare law introduced major new clubowner IRS 'fines' for failure to provide health insurance coverage for 'full time employee' dancers, clubowners attempting to mis-classify dancers as independent contractors, and at the same time clubowners attempting to enforce 'employee' level club rules, scheduling, etc., provided a lot of 'benefits' to the clubowner versus comparatively minor consequences if and when the mis-classification was challenged in court ( by dancer lawsuits ) - basically amounting to having to pay out $2.95 per hour * perhaps 1000 hours in settlement money for mis-classified dancers.
The advent of ( retroactive ) ObamaCare IRS penalties if a clubowner fails to provide health insurance coverage for 'full time employee' dancers now raises the potential consequences if mis-classification is challenged in court ( by dancers, by state DOL's, by the IRS ??? ) to instant bankruptcy levels. Where privately owned clubs or chain clubs are concerned, the potential penalties for losing a future independent contractor versus 'employee' dancer lawsuit could / would now bring with it a $3000 per dancer per year IRS penalty that is retroactive from whatever future year the dancer lawsuit is actually ruled on all the way back to the year when the ObamaCare law originally takes effect ( or the date the dancer was first 'hired', if after the ObamaCare law has taken effect ). And if the IRS is unwilling to 'settle' in regard to the ObamaCare penalties owed, even if the dancers ARE willing to 'settle', the $2.95 per hour owed to 'employee' dancers could then extend to actual hours the dancers worked i.e. 2000 hours per year * 3 years that the lawsuit drags on (or whatever).
Chain clubs obviously have attorneys and accountants who have worked through all of the 'what if' scenarios regarding the possible negative financial consequences of future 'employee' mis-classification lawsuits. It is highly probable that other chain clubs will adopt changes similar to those that SR has instituted. Privately owned clubs have probably not yet worked through all of the 'what if' scenarios, though, so we may see a LARGE number of 'employee' mis-classification lawsuits being brought by dancers during the next couple of years ( since those suing dancers would stand to receive FAR more money if the IRS blocks the possibility of a settlement ), as well as a LARGE number of privately owned club closures / bankruptcies.
My gut tells me that the 'down the road' result of these changes will be this. Chain clubs will treat dancers as 'employees', enforce rules and schedules, and come to dominate the 'upscale' segment of the strip club business. Certain privately owned clubs will continue to treat dancers as independent contractors, will ( illegally ) attempt to enforce 'employee' level rules and schedules and dancer fees / tipouts / percentages, and will attempt to otherwise maximize club income ( allowing 'extras' etc. ), with the clear knowledge that, sooner or later, they will be 'caught' and the club will wind up being closed ( after all a clubowner allowing 'extras' now essentially carries no additional penalty for the clubowner, and probably does not increase the risk that the club will eventually be closed down versus the risk of future dancer lawsuits, the DOL, or the IRS closing the club down by bankruptcy ).
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
this is a fair question. The answer should be fairly obvious though given the following realities about independent contractor status ...
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstance, clubs cannot impose set price levels that dancers must charge customers for a particular service. Thus one independent contractor dancer would be free to charge $10 per private dance while others charged $20.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose set working days or hours for dancers. Thus a club could have 2 dancers working on Monday and 100 dancers working on Friday.
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot collect / retain a 'percentage' of customer money charged by dancers. The club can / must levee a fixed charge to dancers and customers for 'rent' of club facilities. This could translate into dancers being charged a relatively high fixed dollar amount nightly 'rental' fee ( where it then becomes possible for dancers who didn't sell many private dances to leave the club 'in the hole' at the end of the night ), as well as customers being charged a 'rental' fee by the club for VIP rooms etc. that is independent of amounts charged to customers by dancers for time in VIP ( i.e. the VIP customer would have to make two separate payments, one to the dancer and the other to the club ).
- to maintain dancer as independent contractor classification under any circumstances, clubs cannot impose rules limiting the types of costumes dancers wear, rules limiting the types of music dancers play, rules requiring / limiting the type and number of stage dances that dancers must / can perform, rules REQUIRING that dancers 'contribute' a portion of their earnings to DJ / housemom / bouncers etc.
Putting yourself in the place of a clubowner, try to imagine just how difficult it might be to successfully operate a club ... let alone operate a CHAIN of clubs ... under the above circumstances.
aside from the set prices, thats how sr lv operated before the change.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
Why not give a choice between employee and contractor like Hustler, and give girls a choice? Not all of us want the benefits. I personally am a vet and have VA benefits. But if other girls want it, can't they choose? I also LOVE being my own boss and setting my own hours. And I do my taxes. This whole thing just makes me sick.
How the hell are they gonna force ppl to work 30 hours a week? Some of us are trying to transition into other businesses or travel to other places to dance. I really wouldn't mind the reporting and such tax-wise on the forms...it's just being treated like and employee doing this makes it not worth it. It may be riskier to be self-employed, but that is the beauty of freedom. The more you put in, the more u get out of it. A girl who doesn't take care of herself tends to make less than a girl who does, etc. It is like putting more into your own business. It is competition and keeps us all working hard to please the custies. If everyone got the same hourly...well guys, get ready for a DMV experience at the strip club. Have fun.
I like free enterprise. And I am sick and tired of the government punishing small businesses and rewarding large ones.
I'm just glad this has not happened where I dance. And when it does I just hope the hours will stay the same and we just need to report more...not too many other changes
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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aside from the set prices, thats how sr lv operated before the change.
So you weren't required to pay tip-outs to djays / bouncers ??? So you could go onstage wearing Dominatrix gear and dance to country-western music if you wanted to ... or were free to decide that you simply didn't feel like going on stage at all ( without being penalized ) ???
Admittedly SR's club rules and dancer treatment is much closer to independent contractor standards than many other clubs that enforce dancer schedules, that collect a percentage of dancer earnings, etc. However, as the SR lawsuit progressed, the judge published 'opinions' that indicated SR still fell short of true independent contractor treatment. This resulted in SR accepting a settlement offer which classified SR dancers as 'employees', which would NOT have been accepted if there was a reasonable chance the judge would rule that SR's dancers were being treated with the required level of freedom to truly be classified as independent contractors.
And this in turn means that other clubs / chains now know that they have essentially zero chance of a judge finding that their even stricter treatment of dancers warrants independent contractor classification versus dancers being 'employees'. So, as I mentioned earlier, this now leads to a dilemma. Clubs can start treating dancers as 'employees' now, or they can continue to operate mis-classifying dancers as independent contractors and accept the risk that a future dancer lawsuit, DOL investigation, IRS investigation etc. will eventually bankrupt the club by triggering 'employee' health insurance IRS fines, 'employee' minimum wage back payments to dancers, etc. Privately owned clubs may be in a position to accept such risk, but for sure corporate chain clubs with fiduciary duties to stockholders are not !!!
Unfortunately for the 'rest of us', a condition of the SR settlement was that neither party could publicly discuss settlement details for a period of time after the settlement was signed. I think that this 'gag order' provision expires this coming November. At that point, other clubs will have a lot more 'facts' available upon which to base their own future courses.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
what if they came up with a special class of contractor for entertainers? Is there anywhere we can send petitions or something? Asking the IRS to make some sort of classification for us as contractors but having to still operate under certain club rules like we do? Just for the future in case this stuff spreads
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
no, there were no mandatory tip outs. mandatory tip outs are more of a east coast thing, I don't think ive worked at any here that have them. they play all genres of music and do their best to play what you want within reason. maybe a specific song isnt okay but ive heard country rock played. they also play a lot more rap than other vegas clubs which is rare in general for a high class club. you can choose to pay beforehand to go offstage. some nights I don't get called at all tho since there are so many girls and vip takes you off. girls wear everything here. ive seen dominatrix, see thru (technically against the rules/law but they allow it), ugly micro outfits, super urban outfits, pants, full body suits, all sorts of shoes including granny wedges and flats, you get my drift. I wish they had more rules about outfits because a lot of the girls bring the quality of the club down. their "independent contractor freedoms" that ppl seem to love so much make the club look trashy and hurt everyones money.
but this employee thing has actually been great for me. lots of girls left and I think over a few months itll balance out and the girls who are still here are hot and dedicated. no more sudden flooding of girls and no more girls who treat this club as their trash can cuz theyre only gonna be here for a day or two. those of us who are left can stick together and get to know each other a little better which will help everyone. everyone who wants to come here for a weekend to get drunk, undercut us, treat the staff like shit and leave early with customers can go to sapphire!!!
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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what if they came up with a special class of contractor for entertainers? Is there anywhere we can send petitions or something?
yeah Washington DC plus every state capital - and good luck - because nobody else is likely to support such a position.
Fact #1 is that the new ObamaCare law relies on strict classifications of 'full time employees', 'part time employees', self-employed persons etc., as these different classifications affect eligibility for subsidized health insurance coverage, affect who gets assessed with new IRS penalties for failure to purchase / provide health insurance coverage etc.
Fact #2 is that the federal and state gov't tax agencies, labor unions etc. all have a vested interest in seeing dancers treated as employees, since this will result in greater tax collections, greater contributions to social security, greater contributions to unemployment and disability insurance funds, potential new source of union dues, etc. See .
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this employee thing has actually been great for me. lots of girls left and I think over a few months itll balance out and the girls who are still here are hot and dedicated. no more sudden flooding of girls and no more girls who treat this club as their trash can cuz theyre only gonna be here for a day or two
Ultimately, you'll find out around next April 15th when you are actually able to see how much after-tax income you still have left. Yes employee status is not without some benefits. But when it goes back to basics, with club customers spending the same amount of money, and money now being 'diverted' for the first time to unemployment insurance premiums, payroll processing services, health insurance premium subsidies etc. the math says that employee dancer earnings can only decline.
Also, by next April 15th you'll also be able to see how a club having the 'same' group of employee dancers ... and no longer having a steady stream of 'new girls' popping in and out ... affects customer attendance / customer spending. This probably won't be much of a factor given that the Vegas club customer base has a high percentage of tourists. However, it could be a huge factor at sister clubs located in cities with much lower levels of tourism that rely on a local customer base.
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Re: Spearmint rhino lv, dancers will be employees by july 1, 2013
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Originally Posted by
charlotte.
no, there were no mandatory tip outs. mandatory tip outs are more of a east coast thing, I don't think ive worked at any here that have them. they play all genres of music and do their best to play what you want within reason. maybe a specific song isnt okay but ive heard country rock played. they also play a lot more rap than other vegas clubs which is rare in general for a high class club. you can choose to pay beforehand to go offstage. some nights I don't get called at all tho since there are so many girls and vip takes you off. girls wear everything here. ive seen dominatrix, see thru (technically against the rules/law but they allow it), ugly micro outfits, super urban outfits, pants, full body suits, all sorts of shoes including granny wedges and flats, you get my drift. I wish they had more rules about outfits because a lot of the girls bring the quality of the club down. their "independent contractor freedoms" that ppl seem to love so much make the club look trashy and hurt everyones money.
but this employee thing has actually been great for me. lots of girls left and I think over a few months itll balance out and the girls who are still here are hot and dedicated. no more sudden flooding of girls and no more girls who treat this club as their trash can cuz theyre only gonna be here for a day or two. those of us who are left can stick together and get to know each other a little better which will help everyone. everyone who wants to come here for a weekend to get drunk, undercut us, treat the staff like shit and leave early with customers can go to sapphire!!!
Okay. I'm glad to hear it has worked out well for you. If I may ask, has it effected your money much? Are you still able to hustle and earn like before?