Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
I guess I have kind of a weird way of looking at all this.
First of all, splitting is NEVER okay on dates, and RARELY okay elsewhere, to me. Only among good friends and family, and only if it's discussed while picking where to go. The closest to "splitting" I'm okay with when it comes to romance is in a well established relationship: pooling your money while deciding where to go and (this is just my personal preference) putting it in his wallet.
On the first handful of dates, I do secretly expect him to pay. If I know I can't afford to pay for at least my half at wherever we're going, I'll let him know I'm broke beforehand so he has a heads up that he will be paying or else we negotiate somewhere else. If I can cover the whole tab, I will offer to pay when the check comes because that's just considered polite. But if I have to pull out my wallet at all on the first date, or for more than the tip on the second/third, he will not be getting another date with me.
After the third date, I don't mind alternating who pays or splitting up the day. Who ever invites or otherwise suggests where you go should be the one who pays in my mind.
I'm 100% for equality and I assert my independence, but I'm honestly a submissive, classically feminine sort of woman deep down at heart. Among friends, family, acquaintances, etc, I am very much the girl who will open her own doors, pull my own weight, and so forth. But in romance, I expect a chivalrous partner to compliment my domestic diva-ness that's only a few sheets away from the old school housewife stereotype. To explain what I mean a bit:
- Unless I'm home caring for a new baby or something like that, I will work too.
- I prefer to do most of the cooking, but I want a partner who can and occasionally will cook too. The caveat to this is that I expect a "please" if I didn't offer it, and a "thanks" or some other acknowledgment for it.
- I prefer to do most of the housework, but I expect a partner who will reasonably clean up after themselves. As in: properly throw your clothes in the hamper and put your own away yourself after it's been laundered, but let me handle actually getting the laundry done; clear and scrape your own plate, but let me do the dishes; put away your things, but let me handle the general sweeping/dusting/mopping, and we both share in the major monthly/seasonal clean up. The caveat to this is that I expect a "please" if I didn't offer it, and a "thanks" or some other acknowledgment for it.
Romantically speaking, I like gender roles but I demand respect as a fellow human being. On the flip side, I also don't mind totally reversing these gender roles. With my ex fiance, I was the bread winner and he was, per our in house joke, the "house bitch." What matters is human equality. Beyond that, it varies from relationship to relationship. Some people like 50/50, some like the 25/75 housewife/bitch model, some of us prefer some place in between. You just need to find YOUR complimentary partner.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vamp
I have watched this thread to see where it would go......
One thing I have learned the hard way over the years, alot of these guys that whine about paying on first dates, are also the same guys that get pissed off when you dont put out on the first date too.
I keep first dates simple, a diner etc, and he always pays. If he tries to push me into paying or having sex or anything I drop him. He has to honor my personal boundaries. If he doesn't I drop him like a hot rock.
Too many players use women's need be accepted, seen as nice, and liked against them. They will try to guilt you into all kinds of shit, without putting in any effort of their own.
The purpose of a date is for him to show me who he really is. I am paying attention. He has to prove himself to me. If he balks at the challenge he isnt a real man. This might sound extreme.... but it has never failed me. I give as good as I get. I am a damn good woman, i deserve a man worthy of me. If paying for a date is too much for them, so am I.
Not that I agree, but I do get the men who expect sex after paying. After all (in his mind)he gave financially so he wants a return. However a man expecting sex and then complaining he has to pay is going to find himself disappointed more than likely. I'm not into casual sex but would be more open to men who paid than men who didn't.
With first dates I keep it casual unless I already know the guy. To me there is a difference between being friends with a guy for years then dating versus just meeting. When I first meet a guy I like something very casual. When I did online dating I usually met for a snack/soda or something costing little money.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kellydancer
Not that I agree, but I do get the men who expect sex after paying. After all (in his mind)he gave financially so he wants a return. However a man expecting sex and then complaining he has to pay is going to find himself disappointed more than likely. I'm not into casual sex but would be more open to men who paid than men who didn't.
With first dates I keep it casual unless I already know the guy. To me there is a difference between being friends with a guy for years then dating versus just meeting. When I first meet a guy I like something very casual. When I did online dating I usually met for a snack/soda or something costing little money.
To me, it is more about his character then it is about the sex or money.
How he deals with these issues is one way that he shows his character early on. I am looking to see how much he honors my personal boundaries.
We are all entitled to have personal boundaries because of the society we live in. A man who is more interested in pushing a woman into a situation, then finding out who she is, isnt there to build a relationship. He is there for what he can get out of it.
Not that you are saying this..... but these discussions, whether it is with a man on a date or on these forums, descend into women needing to prove themselves as well. I just take the stance of..... I do not have to prove who I am until I know I can trust you. By taking a hard stance I find great men who are honorable, strong integrity, and successful in their lives.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vamp
To me, it is more about his character then it is about the sex or money.
How he deals with these issues is one way that he shows his character early on. I am looking to see how much he honors my personal boundaries.
We are all entitled to have personal boundaries because of the society we live in. A man who is more interested in pushing a woman into a situation, then finding out who she is, isnt there to build a relationship. He is there for what he can get out of it.
Not that you are saying this..... but these discussions, whether it is with a man on a date or on these forums, descend into women needing to prove themselves as well. I just take the stance of..... I do not have to prove who I am until I know I can trust you. By taking a hard stance I find great men who are honorable, strong integrity, and successful in their lives.
I don't think anyone needs to prove anything and I don't like when men say "I bought dinner, she has to put out". Not that I agree (I don't)but it makes more sense than a man saying "she needs to put out no matter" if that makes sense. I think what happens a lot (at least what I've seen)are two kinds of men who pay on the first date and that are the men who are truly honorable and really respect women and those who look at it as payback. I'm kind of cynical myself and would more than likely assume if he asked me out on a first date and then spent a lot that he isn't doing that because he likes me but because he assumes he'll get sex. In general I am cynical because I rarely come across the men are very honorable men. Most of the honorable men I do meet have been stung by women (I don't mean sexually)so they usually will mention casual dating until they know I have no intention of screwing them over. Most of them do end up paying but it is different to me to go to a cheap date versus an expensive one at first.
This might not make much sense but it's what I usually see. Yes the men I know will pay the first date but seem to suggest something very cheap. I don't come across the men many are mentioning who take them to 5 star restaurants and pay and expect nothing. I come across men who will pay but will take me to some mom and pop restaurant (nothing wrong with that), or men who will wine and dine me but expect sex, or the men who expect me to pay.
Keep in mind though that this is because my dating pool is different than most here. My dating pool consists of men with kids and/or exwives and their financial obligations to them, men who have been stung by women, men who have had lots of sexual partners, and men who have little dating experience and don't know how to date. This really affects the type of men I come across. The broke men don't spend as much and those who got stung aren't as likely to spend much. The guys with little dating experience are the strangest and many are so set in their ways they often don't know if they should pay or not.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Even when I was a broke college kid, it was inconceivable that my date would have to pull out her wallet. Now obviously there is some point in the relationship where things change, such as when two young people move in together or the relationship is more advanced she wants to do something that he cannot swing alone. Now some of my GFs back in those days were merciful, especially since they were young and broke too and knew the score, but I think that they were simply grateful that I found ways for us to be able to do some fun things together - sometimes creatively at that. ;)
IMHO how a man handles these things in the early stages should tell a girl something about how he will step up when it really matters, such as if they should ever get married and have kids together. Now I hear everyone about the equality angle, but until guys can pop babies out of their penises and produce milk, IMHO they need to be able to take care of business when it counts. Life is real hard in circumstances where women have to bear kids, take on the bulk of the child rearing AND make ends meet, all because they find out, too late, that their men are lazy and useless.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Even when I was a broke college kid, it was inconceivable that my date would have to pull out her wallet. Now obviously there is some point in the relationship where things change, such as when two young people move in together or the relationship is more advanced she wants to do something that he cannot swing alone. Now some of my GFs back in those days were merciful, especially since they were young and broke too and knew the score, but I think that they were simply grateful that I found ways for us to be able to do some fun things together - sometimes creatively at that. ;)
IMHO how a man handles these things in the early stages should tell a girl something about how he will step up when it really matters, such as if they should ever get married and have kids together. Now I hear everyone about the equality angle, but until guys can pop babies out of their penises and produce milk, IMHO they need to be able to take care of business when it counts. Life is real hard in circumstances where women have to bear kids, take on the bulk of the child rearing AND make ends meet, all because they find out, too late, that their men are lazy and useless.
Anyway, just my two cents.
I do think though there is a difference in a woman looking to be a stay at home mom )or even just a mom since most mothers have jobs outside the home)versus one who has no interest, and that has a lot to do with the men they date. It would seem to me that many men who have more traditional views on marriage would be more willing to pay a lot (if not all/most)because he assumes to be he'll be the breadwinner. Because that whole lifestyle has never been for me I've sought out different types of men. Not saying I intentionally seek out men expecting me to pay, it's just that I come across these men more often. Most of the men in my dating pool either already have kids, don't want them or do but tend not to want to date me. Every so often I do come across men who want children and want to date me but they tend to be more conservative and more open to paying. Having said all of that, to me a man who asks me out then expects me to pay will likely not get a second date.
Btw those men who expect the wife to do the bulk of childrearing and do the pay the bulk bills are the biggest assholes to me. To me it either should be equal (or close to it)in childrearing and bill paying or one does the bills and the other the majority of childrearing.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kellydancer
I don't think anyone needs to prove anything and I don't like when men say "I bought dinner, she has to put out". Not that I agree (I don't)but it makes more sense than a man saying "she needs to put out no matter" if that makes sense. I think what happens a lot (at least what I've seen)are two kinds of men who pay on the first date and that are the men who are truly honorable and really respect women and those who look at it as payback. I'm kind of cynical myself and would more than likely assume if he asked me out on a first date and then spent a lot that he isn't doing that because he likes me but because he assumes he'll get sex. In general I am cynical because I rarely come across the men are very honorable men. Most of the honorable men I do meet have been stung by women (I don't mean sexually)so they usually will mention casual dating until they know I have no intention of screwing them over. Most of them do end up paying but it is different to me to go to a cheap date versus an expensive one at first.
This might not make much sense but it's what I usually see. Yes the men I know will pay the first date but seem to suggest something very cheap. I don't come across the men many are mentioning who take them to 5 star restaurants and pay and expect nothing. I come across men who will pay but will take me to some mom and pop restaurant (nothing wrong with that), or men who will wine and dine me but expect sex, or the men who expect me to pay.
Keep in mind though that this is because my dating pool is different than most here. My dating pool consists of men with kids and/or exwives and their financial obligations to them, men who have been stung by women, men who have had lots of sexual partners, and men who have little dating experience and don't know how to date. This really affects the type of men I come across. The broke men don't spend as much and those who got stung aren't as likely to spend much. The guys with little dating experience are the strangest and many are so set in their ways they often don't know if they should pay or not.
Totally agree with you on this!! Around November, I went out with a guy who had almost no dating experience, never had a girlfriend and had just lost his virginity last summer. Never again!!
He seemed intelligent at first, he's doing a masters in Physics, is a straight A student and the president of the university's student association, but he really *didn't* know how to talk to girls! We went to this dessert place, it wasn't expensive but the food is good. When the waiter asked if it's one bill or two, I was waiting for him to answer but he didn't so I replied separate. Then when the waiter leaves he asks me did I just screw up? I said well, I know you don't date often but usually the guy pays on the first date. So he said okay and paid the total but then started talking about how he doesn't want to have to take care of a girl blabla (???). He did not leave me such a good impression but I thought I'd give him a second chance since he's not experienced and he seemed okay.
I wasn't sure if I wanted to see him again but we keep texting every now and then. He started asking me to go on a second date with him during final exams. I was extremely busy and told him to wait until exams are over. He kept begging me almost every day to go on a date with him and on one occasion, he really wanted to go out for sushis. I said I couldn't but he kept begging and begging, I was ignoring his texts and then at his last attempt he says if you come today I will pay for you!! I was thinking err... So you've been begging me for weeks to go on a second date with you but you were not planning on paying... Then you tell me you will foot the bill to convince me to go on a date with you?! LOL
I stopped talking to him after some really weird conversations we've had, especially about sex. We've had a tallk about pubic hair and he was telling me how he doesn't shave or trim, he's never heard about guys shaving, he's traumatized at the thought that a guy would do that. Pubic hair is manly and virile... He also complained about not having enough sex, having a small dick, how it wouldn't be so bad if he knew how to use it but he doesn't know how yet... Told me sex made him feel powerful, but he wasn't sure if he liked it, not that sex feels bad but it feels strange, maybe it's because his penis is not used to being in warm and humid places (in his own words). All of this didn't really make me feel like wanting too see him again so I blocked his number...
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
That guy does sound strange but I suppose (in a way)I can understand his confusion. I mean it's usually common sense that the person who does the asking out pays and it's generally the man or that most women assume he will pay anyway. I have a male friend who apparently wants to take me out but I believe he is inexperience and doing some strange things like asking me to go out on a date with him and HIS MOTHER. I would assume he would pay for me but knowing how inexperienced he is he might assume I should pay for me. In his case he actually makes more than me so me paying seems odd. The other things that guy did definitely sound like inexperience, my friend will often say things that are weird, such as online dating is strictly people with diseases looking for sex.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
I do agree that a guy should always pay on the first date. If anything, it symbolizes the fact that he is able, and willing, to provide. I also see it as kind of a respect thing, just because it is a cultural norm. After the first date, however, it is definitely okay for the woman to pay. My man and I split costs on almost everything. I pay for a movie, he pays for dinner. I pay for gas, he buys me lunch.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
I totally agree that a guy should expect to/offer to pay on the first few dates. I would have him pay at least the first one. That's my personal preference anyway, others can have their own.
But after that - while the idea of being "taking care of" by a man financially is intriguing, I don't really think the idea fits in with a lot of modern relationships, particularity one that involves sex work.
In traditional* relationships there is a certain sense of possessiveness where the woman sort of "belongs to" the man, and he is expected to provide and care for her financially, often whether she has children or not. And of course in our modern culture the woman doesn't actually belong to anybody else, it's more about how the couple interacts and how the relationship is structured. I could give examples but I'm sure we all know what that mindset entails. It's not inherently a bad thing, it can be a very romantic (or even kinky) too and there are still couples who operate off of this premise. For submissive women who are selective in their partners this could work out very well.
But with sex work I feel like there is inherently (in the way that most of us here approach it, not survival sex work etc) a sense of independence that goes along with it. Yes, it's just our job but we are still interacting with a lot of men, acting flirty and receiving gifts because they adore us. The gifts we get are often worth more money then what one partner could give us and our earning potential is frequently higher. I can see why a guy who wants a more "traditional" relationship would have a really hard time with this. It might feel unfair, or at least less romantic for him to be taking care of all her financial needs, but she is interacting "sexually" (even if it's just acting) and sometimes emotionally with a bunch of other guys and getting gifts from them too.
I'm definitely not saying there would be anything wrong with that setup either, but I imagine the relationship would be more like a sugar daddy or maybe some kind of cuckold/findom if there was a kinky element involved. And sugar daddy relationships are a valid path if that's what both parties want but I would argue there are usually some romantic limitations between the two parties unless this is somehow based in their kinks (like for example he is a dom and she works under his approval or whatever, because it's fun).
This is getting a little esoteric but my point is that while it's possible to be a sex worker and also have your boyfriend/husband be the financial provider 100%, in most cases this would be a deviation from both our traditional and popular/modern models of relationships. I can see how a guy who wants a "traditional" relationship would not be interested in dating a sex worker, and how a guy who wants a "modern" relationship would not be that interested in being the financial provider - unless again, it's a kinky thing.
This isn't necessarily including when it ends up that way out of convenience, like the guy makes way more money anyway, or it's kind of an off season for her and she needs extra help, or she supported him at one point and now he's supporting her. I mean that stuff happens and as partners we help each other out. I'm thinking more like, the women is already a sex worker and intends for this to be her career, and how they expect things to work out long term when they first start dating.
I'm also not saying that being sex workers makes us "unworthy" of being treated or receiving gifts or whatever. Lol that would be stupid. A gift from my bf is waaaay different then a "gift" from a customer regardless of how much it cost. I'm talking more of how bills and dates are generally split in the long term.
These are just generalities of course. It's not always black and white.
*Traditional and modern being relative to what culture and time period we're talking about but I mean what is currently most relevant to present day western culture.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Some of you are being real assholes on this thread.
It's perfectly ok to have your own personal standards. You want a guy to pay for everything, cool, have fun with that. You want to split things, cool, have fun with that. You want to pay, cool, have fun with that.
You start telling other people what they need to do on their dates, then you're being an asshole. You can ask a guy to pay for you without insulting women who don't do that. Just like you can pay your own way without insulting women who aren't like you. It's really not that hard.
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MarvelGirl
Some of you are being real assholes on this thread.
It's perfectly ok to have your own personal standards. You want a guy to pay for everything, cool, have fun with that. You want to split things, cool, have fun with that. You want to pay, cool, have fun with that.
You start telling other people what they need to do on their dates, then you're being an asshole. You can ask a guy to pay for you without insulting women who don't do that. Just like you can pay your own way without insulting women who aren't like you. It's really not that hard.
Idk Marvel. I've been following this thread pretty carefully and I'm not sure I saw anyone being an asshole. Obviously some of the posters on here have some strong opinions on this topic, but overall I thought that this thread was pretty civil and I'm not sure where any insults were leveled at anyone. Maybe I missed something? :shrug:
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Just for the record I couldn't care less what people do on their dates. Hey if a woman expects him to pay for everything and always pay has no effect on my life. Likewise, the opposite is also fine too. My only issue are when men ask me out then expect me to pay or worse expect me to pay for him. I do have a problem with that. Only exception I think would be when I did online and I expected to pay (and often insisted I pay). I always expected to pay if I asked him out (and did ask men out).
Re: I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Who ever invites pay. Specially if you're trying to pursuit me.
I once had a guy who invited me on three dates and he never seem to mind paying. One day he started whining about how I never make an attempt to reach for the check and pay on the only three dates we went on (they were all less than $90). I just look at him, smile and left.
After that he would called me everyday asking me out on more dates or to come over, and saying that he didn't want me to pay, he just wanted to see if I could show some attempt in paying, because that would show I actually care about him. I simply ignored him and blocked his number, never waste my words with him.
I'm sorry but I don't have time for whines, cheapos, and insecurities.