new 'Rape By Fraud' bill !
from
(snip)Assemblyman Troy Singleton (D-Mount Laurel) calls it “rape by fraud.” Women and even men have been lured into relationships with people who aren’t who they say they are. “You probably would not consent to someone who purported to be a million different things other than they are,” Singleton said.
The assemblyman has introduced a bill that would make lying to get someone to have sex equal to rape. “We think it is important to folks to be protected and this is just another way to provide that protection,” he said. Under the bill, it would require more than a little white lie to land you in jail. The lies would have to be continuous and rise to a high level of deceit.
“When you are told lies of identity, you’re basically having a sexual relationship with a person who is a total stranger,” Joyce Short said. Short supports the bill. She claims she was deceived for years by her now ex-husband. “He lied about his marital status, he lied about his education. He said he had a bachelor’s in accounting from NYU and was, in fact, a high school dropout,” Short said.
At least five states already make it a crime to have sex by fraud, but some make it a lesser offense than rape. But some say it should be a matter of personal responsibility, not a case for the prosecutor. “She or he should do their due diligence and check the guy out. If he or she isn’t what they say they are, then move on,” Mark Harris said.
If the bill becomes law, major cases of lying and deception for sex could result in 10 to 20 years in prison.(snip)
Re: new 'Rape By Fraud' bill !
Who is Joyce Short, and why is she so easy to fool?
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^^^ for me, the 'wow' part was discovering that 6 other states already have such laws in place.
I suppose that these sort of laws are merely an extension of the Title IX 'permission' requirements for college students to have sex without facing risk of potential 'sexual assault' charges ... i.e. gov't increasingly involving itself in people's sex lives.
On the speculative side, I wonder what this could mean in regard to a girl who enters into a 'normal' relationship without telling her partner that she is / was a 'stripper' ?
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I think this is yet another problem stemming from "hookup culture." Maybe if people actually took the time to get to know each other first before they fucked, we wouldn't have all these problems. I guess they should start with people' online dating profiles and photoshopped pictures? Lol
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This reminds me of Lee Marvin's "I said I loved her as a figure of speech" statement.
(Lee was still hot though....grrr)
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Sorry, I just don't agree with the idea.
Maybe in the case of someone hiding a criminal history from their sexual partners, I'm somewhat ok with it, especial sexual criminals. But 10 to 20 years for lying? Come on now. We're already over governed and over prison populated.
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Personal opinions aside, how might these laws potentially be used by ... say ... an unhappy Sugar Daddy against a Sugar Baby who 'fraudulently' entered into a generous one-sided relationship ??? I've heard of a couple of court cases where unhappy Sugar Daddies attempted to sue Sugar Babies to recover some of their generous 'gifts' ( and got laughed out of court ). But these laws would potentially open the door for the unhappy Sugar Daddy to bring criminal charges against the Sugar Baby !!! If so, that could be a 'game changer' ...
I'm glad that I'm retired at this point.
Re: new 'Rape By Fraud' bill !
i would agree if it was something like not telling your partner you have AIDS or telling them you put the condom on and didn't ( these are already agains the law i believe) this one seems a bit far fetched though. how would you prove somebody had lied to you? and how far does this go? is it only about important things like or could it be down to something stupid like " you said you liked nirvana just to get in bed with me, but you really like britney spears!"?
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Perhaps the government will provide a chaperone for every phase of the relationship, make sure everyone is treated with respect, help put the condom on, etc.
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how would you prove somebody had lied to you? and how far does this go?
Again, my specific concern is how this could potentially be applied by unhappy Sugar Daddies. In that situation, a case could easily be made that the Sugar Baby 'lied' in regard to her true intentions ... failing to mention an adult industry work history, lying in regard to her 'romantic' versus mercenary motivations, failure to mention other sex partners, etc.
Lately, new laws seem to focus on protection of 'victims' - and clever Sugar Daddies could easily maneuver themselves into a 'victim' role. But in 'real world' terms, this could create a new method of 'victimizing' Sugar Babies - by giving them a choice of 'voluntarily' paying back moneys provided by the former Sugar Daddy, versus the possibility of facing criminal charges for 'rape by fraud'.
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Does it really help anyone to label any behavior where one party is unhappy as "Rape", or doesn't it just make actual Rape and sexual assault that much harder to prosecute?
I think it sets a terrible precedent for everyone. The way it is presented virtually anyone with an axe to grind can charge their ex/partner with "Rape by Fraud". No, this leaves the door wide open for some terrible policy and because of that it will almost definitely make lawyers rich with very little "justice" being served to the jilted.
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Actually, this one IIRC got rolling a bit before the Title IX "Only Yes Means Yes" affirmative-consent standard, just that only recently both began getting traction beyond isolated local instances.
It is not entirely unprecedented to incorporate an element of sexual assault by deception -- the notion being that consent has been vitiated by misdirection. For example, many state Penal Codes have for a long time included a provision of a form of statutory offence along the lines of "the offender, by disguise or deception, leads the victim to believe it is her spouse she is consenting to" (and at least around where I live that has been interpreted to extend to "committed partners" as well as spouses). Around here that gets you the regular charge of rape a.k.a. Sexual Battery.
In Ye Olde Tymes, our Penal Code had the crime of "Seduction" or "Defilement" which once you got through the convoluted archaic legalese said that if an adult man got it on with a girl who was above the AoC but still a legal "minor" (i.e. 16-21) and "of good moral reputation" (the known slutty girls were out of luck, I suppose) through false promises of marriage, you were liable for a lesser penalty, 3 to 5 years and a hefty fine. Unless you went ahead and married her anyway. This was obviously a statute for the protection of "the better families" and was rightfully done away with.
Now, going back to the first example that IS in the books -- notice that that refers in essence to rape through identity theft -- the offender would be falsely assuming the identity of someone real who the victim already has vetted as a sex partner and freely given real consent.
Now, this is IMO a very different thing than "He said he had a bachelor’s in accounting from NYU and was, in fact, a high school dropout" . Up until now, the general rule for consent law was that once you went past the Age-of-Consent threshold, and even more so if you also were past the legal-adult age, the Law would (supposedly) punish someone who violated that consent through force, threat, coercion or taking advantage of permanent or temporary impairment, but if we had two mentally competent adults involved, then it was Buyer Beware and up to everyone to do "due diligence".
If anything, ISTM making misrepresentation in the course of the sexual exchange equal to "rape" (first degree sexual battery, or however it's coded in your state or country) represents an distortion of the concept of Rape. Maybe we should make this conduct have some sort of consequence, but really, 10-to-20 years PMITA hard time because someone believed your BS "game"? (OK, so if you're Bernie Maddoff and destroyed billions in wealth and ruined thousands of people and brought down dozens of institutions in the process... but because one person who normally wouldn't give you the time of day dropped his/her pants when you faked being an ex-SEAL hedge fund exec Harvard grad?) And yes, like Melonie very sagaciously points out: if the law is to be fair, it has to cut both ways. (But to use her example, really how much sympathy you all think advocates of these laws have for Sugarbabies? Some of the supporting factions may consider the Sugarbabies' very existence some sort of affront.)
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If anything, ISTM making misrepresentation in the course of the sexual exchange equal to "rape" (first degree sexual battery, or however it's coded in your state or country) represents an distortion of the concept of Rape. Maybe we should make this conduct have some sort of consequence, but really, 10-to-20 years PMITA hard time because someone believed your BS "game"? (OK, so if you're Bernie Maddoff and destroyed billions in wealth and ruined thousands of people and brought down dozens of institutions in the process... but because one person who normally wouldn't give you the time of day dropped his/her pants when you faked being an ex-SEAL hedge fund exec Harvard grad?)
Unfortunately, that appears to be EXACTLY what these new 'rape by fraud' statutes are doing. And while the stated intent seems to be protection of girls who have consented to sex based on 'fraudulent' information ( supposedly being an ex-SEAL, hedge fund manager, Harvard grad etc. ), the new 'rape by fraud' statutes could also 'cut the other way' in regard to guys who provided money / gifts / perks to girls based on similar 'fraudulent' information i.e. supposedly having genuine 'romantic' interest in the guy.
If nothing else, these new 'rape by fraud' statutes provide a strong incentive for girls seeking Sugar Baby status to use an organized 'service' such as Seeking Arrangements. With the initial hook-up stemming directly from an organized 'service' such as Seeking Arrangements, there would be virtually no way for an unhappy Sugar Daddy to make the case that he has been the victim of 'fraudulent' intent on the part of the Sugar Baby, thus no way for the unhappy Sugar Daddy to credibly bring 'rape by fraud' charges against the Sugar Baby after the fact, because Seeking Arrangements essentially formalizes the SD / SB nature of any 'relationship' between the two parties.
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Ah, yes... we're killing off some of the last of the old "romantic"::) self-delusions...
"I know she only wants me for my money and the opportunity to meet celebs, and she knows I only want her 'cause she's 19 and each tit is the size of my head. But it feels SO GOOD to hear her say that she digs older distinguished gentlemen who know how to take care of a girl, and that my dick is humongous, and that she believes I am seeking to give her a worldly education and she's grateful for it and looks forward to taking care of me, while looking so adorable saying all that BS with a straight face!" :D
Now we're going to have to break kayfabe right from the start. Then watch those same Powers That Be crack down on SeekingArrangements and the like for being fronts for "undesirable" activities.
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Something contract-like might be required. I don't know if the site would hold up that well as proof of anything, although it couldn't hurt. People's secondary intentions in any social activity are very difficult to prove. A person might take up getting in shape at a popular gym with the real purpose of dating, for example. It would be very difficult to prove if they won't admit to it.
I think it is very interesting how the two sexes lie differently and it kind of gets to the heart of this. Men lie to elevate their status, women lie to preserve relationships. I think it is fair to characterize a male liars stories as a bit worse as they can lead to quite a lot of harm. A woman may be a far more casual liar, but outside of cheating less likely to do serious harm.
This is very liberal use of the word "Rape", although in the case of a male saying anything to get a woman in bed it is done to bypass her selection process so it isn't completely crazy. If the law were just called "Sexual Fraud", it would take on a very different meaning.
That sort of automatically makes this a law about men deceiving women. I am sympathetic, there have been some horror stories of these relationships when the woman finds out her SO is actually a big fucking fake and their entire relationship is a lie; usually after years of stringing the woman along. There are far less publicized stories of some sad men who have a wife that sleeps around on them and none of their children are his own. The first example fits neatly with this law, but I'm not sure the second does even though significant harm has been done by "Fraud" in both cases.
I'm guessing there will need to be some sort of metrics to actually prosecute something like this. As I said earlier I think the precedent is terrible. The victims deserve a means to get something, but it seems like a civil matter and calling it Rape (even though I think I understand where they are coming from) seems like attaching wording to get attention and support for it.
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This is very liberal use of the word "Rape", although in the case of a male saying anything to get a woman in bed it is done to bypass her selection process so it isn't completely crazy. If the law were just called "Sexual Fraud", it would take on a very different meaning.
That sort of automatically makes this a law about men deceiving women.
Logically speaking, yes. But legally speaking, no. Under 'equal treatment' statutes, undoubtedly women 'deceiving' men would be equally culpable. And the disappointed Sugar Daddies will have the means to lawyer up ... potentially offering the ex-Sugar Babies a faustian choice of returning some of the previously provided 'gifts, versus facing potential criminal charges.
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There are also laws on the books allowing someone who is married to sue the the person their partner has had an affair with for financial damages. This would have affected me a while back as I started a relationship with a woman who I later found out was married. She did not divulge this information until after a few months of dating and being sexually active. Once I found out I ended things on the spot.
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I think the USA is getting too ridiculous and strict. Good thing you moved Melonie;)