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Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Ok so the manager rounded up all the girls last night to tell them of a new policy. They are having the customer after he gets dances go to the bar and pay the barista for the dances then we get our money at the end of the night after fees.
how it used to be is we handled all the money ourselves then tipped out at the end of the shift. This was great because you make most of your money by tips and by "mis counting" songs...like you did 10 dances ($400) but charged him 11 and therefore that 1 song u don't have to pay back to the club (my club takes $14 out of every dance) so you keep the whole $40.
This new way makes it impossible to get tipped and you can't miscount a song or 2
this is is seriously where most of the girls get their money because money in la is rough.
is this normal?! I'm freaking the f out
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
I've never heard of that... sounds like a giant time-wasting pain in the ass.
Personally that kind of micromanaging policy would make me move clubs.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Wait ... having the customer not only pay AFTER dances -- as in, not paying upfront -- but also having him fork it over to a staff member who is not there to keep an accurate count of how many dances he got?
That's a migraine & a half waiting to happen for mgmt, not to mention dancers, if customers figure out that they can dispute dance counts in their own favour & claim that they don't have to pay for X number of dances.
One club I worked at briefly had a setup that I thought was good for every1 -- dancers, mgmt & customers. Dances were I think $25 & $5 of that went to the club. There was a lady who sat near the private dance area w/ stashes of poker chips. Dancer+customer were given a chip for each dance, then could trade up (get different coloured chips) for increments of 5 or 10 dances, then when you're done, you take the customer to the bar, show them your chips, customer pays, & at the end of the nite you cash in your chips w/ the appropriate club cuts taken out already. Dancer still has her chips up to cashing-in time so every1 can make sure the totals add up as they should. This system also didn't prevent the customer from tipping on top of the dance price if desired.
Would it be possible to propose a similar system in your club? It's easily the most transparent method I've seen -- even if you have an official 'dance counter' making slash marks or Xs on a piece of paper, when shit gets busy, even the best dance counters can make errors. It would also cut down on dancers & customers trying to rip each other off. One would think many customers would be inclined to spend more if they can see that the risk of a super-inflated dance tab is minimised.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
RIGHT?! I dont even know HOW to get tips this way.:bomb:
Im looking at other clubs but its hard. This one made me really happy....the other ones ive been reading has WORSE managment and LESS money potential. But I guess it cant hurt to try. I was thinking of looking at Four Play....I dunno. Ive only worked at this club never any other clubs.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
There are a lot of threads in HH abt increasing tips. I'm sure you can find smtg in there that will work for your club's setup.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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Originally Posted by
Aniela
There are a lot of threads in HH abt increasing tips. I'm sure you can find smtg in there that will work for your club's setup.
Great advice! looking now....
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Since your Siggy indicates you're from California, I'll offer the following wild speculation regarding a possible reason for this change based on previous discussions with California business acquaintances.
The California DOL and Cal state franchise tax board have been pretty intense about the direct transfer of money from customers to dancers. The change just made by your club would route all customer moneys except tips through the club's payroll system. This in turn would ...
- allow the club to account for all customer moneys paid out to dancers at the end of the night as dancer income ( as opposed to taxable club income ), which guarantees the Cal FTB and IRS will receive reports of that dancer income.
- allow the club to prove that dancer earnings are above minimum wage level in the event of an 'employee' dancer lawsuit
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
wow Melonie that makes sense why they would do that. Still it kind of ruins my money...like by hundreds.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
^^^ well, nothing is stopping you from hitting up the customer for 'cash' in addition to the cost of the dance. But, generally speaking, customers are only willing to deal with a second, all 'cash', transaction if 'extras' are involved.
In terms of ruining your money, indeed this change will eliminate your ability to 'miscalculate' on the number of dances thus having to pay the club's 'cut' of those dances. However, this change will also eliminate your ability to 'forget' to report some of your dancing income on your federal and cal state tax returns. Thus, besides taking home a reduced amount of money at the end of the night, the IRS and Cal FTB are now certain to eventually come looking to collect a combined 30%+ of the money you did actually leave the club with at the end of the night.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Hell no, I'd move. They are taking $14 freaking dollars out of your dance??? That's ridiculous!
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
I have only worked in one that sort of operated like that. It was my first and my last time working there. I would switch clubs.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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Originally Posted by
NightGoddess
Hell no, I'd move. They are taking $14 freaking dollars out of your dance??? That's ridiculous!
Well, her dances are $40, so she's still getting $26...
But I work in places where the most we keep is $20, so that still seems like a better cut to me, though I'm not sure how hard it is to actually sell $40 dances compared to $20 ones.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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Originally Posted by
Zekerella
Ok so the manager rounded up all the girls last night to tell them of a new policy. They are having the customer after he gets dances go to the bar and pay the barista for the dances then we get our money at the end of the night after fees.
how it used to be is we handled all the money ourselves then tipped out at the end of the shift. This was great because you make most of your money by tips and by "mis counting" songs...like you did 10 dances ($400) but charged him 11 and therefore that 1 song u don't have to pay back to the club (my club takes $14 out of every dance) so you keep the whole $40.
This new way makes it impossible to get tipped and you can't miscount a song or 2
this is is seriously where most of the girls get their money because money in la is rough.
is this normal?! I'm freaking the f out
Are they making you an employee? Because if you are on their payroll and receive either an hourly or daily rate, then the bar is within it's rights to implement this policy. If you are still considered an independent contractor, then this kind of micro-management of your sales income is illegal.
How I would handle this situation is that I'd insist the customer pay me directly, then I would walk with the customer to the barista to settle the bill. Or just tell the barista that the customer just handed you the money because he was in a hurry. Somehow I doubt you'll get fired for insisting on payment of dances BEFORE you start. It is a common practice to pay the dancer first, so plenty of customers are just ready to pay up front.
As far as miscounting songs in order to rip off the customer, this is just a bad business policy. A customer who feels ripped off by his lap dancer isn't going to be willing to buy lap dances as easily in the future. If you feel you can get more money out of the customer, just increase your per-dance fee. Or, you can sell dances in chunks of time (30 min. VIP, for example).
I work in a club with ridiculously complicated rules. I've got too much on my mind to remember all the rules (6 pages in 10pt font. Not joking.), so I just use common sense. I know I'm probably not doing business how they would prefer, but I keep bringing in the money so they keep letting me do my own thing. I obey the law and don't start shit with anyone, so they tolerate my blatant disregard of some policies.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Quote:
Are they making you an employee? Because if you are on their payroll and receive either an hourly or daily rate, then the bar is within it's rights to implement this policy. If you are still considered an independent contractor, then this kind of micro-management of your sales income is illegal.
This is precisely what the California DOL has arguably been pushing for ... 'statutory employee' status for all California dancers. That way 100% of dancer earnings ( including tips ) gets run through the club's payroll system, reported to the IRS and Cal FTB, and taxed. That way the Cal disability and unemployment insurance funds ( which are beyond broke ) get additional money from both the clubowners and the dancers.
It sounds like the clubowner in this particular case has taken a little bit of 'heat', and as a result is trying to implement a 'halfway measure' for CYA purposes in hopes of avoiding a lawsuit / DOL hearing regarding 'employee' status for the club's dancers.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
I do $40 dances and if I ever had to give that much away, I'd punch someone. In no way should a club be taking a dancer's dance money, it should be a flat percent tip out to the house or DJ and and that's it.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
^ You guys are used to keeping all $40 though, so anything less seems absurd. Perspective.
But I agree that percentages and dance cuts are ridiculous. I used to work in a club that wanted $5 out of every $25 dance and then 10% of everything after that, so it worked out that I kept $18/$25 of every VIP dance. Between those cuts and the house fee, the club kept around 30% of my gross. When a club is keeping that much of your gross, it becomes more of a pimp and less of a fair exchange for use of the space.
As far as the OP's situation, can you still ask the customer for a tip, maybe as you're walking back to the bar, or before you leave the dance area? I also kinda don't see why you can't still ask for a tip at the bar, or even have the bartender do it (it's common for VIP hosts to ask for tips on behalf of the dancer). The club isn't entitled to a cut of your TIP money. That's the gray area you can use to your advantage.
Agreed that it has tax implications... ask if they are going to be issuing 1099s for this money, so you can make sure your tax return matches up to their records.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
My favorite club was one with only 60$ nude dances, the club took half (we were employees so got paychecks), and customers paid the bar. I always got my tips right after the dance ended and then the guys had to walk over to the bar and pay for the actual dances. I made REALLY good money there. But if this is a new policy I could see customers being annoyed with it since they aren't used to it. Definitely try other clubs but I would continue to work there for a little while to see how it turns out.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
^^^ an acquaintance in California pointed out the following ...
(snip)Los Angeles, CA - (FOX 11 / CNS) - 4/23/15
A jury awarded $6.5 million Thursday to 249 exotic dancers who alleged the management of an Industry strip club illegally took tips they earned from private off-stage dances.
The jury deliberated for most of Tuesday and several hours Wednesday before signaling that they had reached a verdict in the case brought by the lead plaintiff and class representative, 29-year-old Quinece Hills, against Paradise Showgirls.
The verdict was sealed until this morning because Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michelle Rosenblatt could not be present late Wednesday afternoon.
The class-action lawsuit was filed in May 2010 and the plaintiffs were all dancers who performed at Paradise Showgirls from May 2006 to the present, according to Hills' attorney, K.L. Myles.
The lawyer said state law is unique when it comes to strippers because it allows performers of private dances to treat money directly obtained from customers as gratuities.
"We're very pleased that we had such a thoughtful and conscientious jury,'' Myles said.
Club managers admitted that at the end of the strippers' shifts, they took $14 of the $40 the dancers obtained from lap dances and $100 of the cash the performers obtained for "VIP dances'' that involved longer sessions with customers in a private room, Myles said.
She said a future hearing will be held in which the plaintiffs will ask the judge to issue an injunction against Paradise Showgirls to stop the practice of collecting portions of the dancers' tips.
Club attorney Ernest Franceschi said the award was about half of what the plaintiffs sought. He said there would be an appeal and that it may be years before many of the constitutional issues are resolved.(snip)
This is clearly a case of the club taking legal 'heat' i.e. a class action lawsuit which was just decided in favor of the dancers ( at least in part ) at the local court level. The club has announced that it will file an appeal, thus it may take years before the issue is officially decided one way or another. However, the threat of a court injunction undoubtedly motivated club management to try and stop the practice of club customer money passing directly into the hands of dancers ... which under ( unique ) California law is presently considered to be dancer tip income which is legally beyond the reach of California clubowners ( at least until the appeal is decided ).
It would not be surprising to see many other California strip clubs attempt to similarly change present situations where customer money now passes directly into the hands of dancers, as a result of this court decision.
It would also not be surprising for the Cal FTB and IRS to follow up this court decision with an audit of the club, as well as an audit of past and present dancers, given that the 'public record' of the court case has just provided hard numbers regarding how much money the 249 dancers participating in the class action lawsuit were earning. Based on the actual $6.5 million award being about half of what dancers had asked for in the class action suit, some simple math shows average dancer earnings level from private dances and VIP's alone was $13 million * $40/$14 / 249 = $150,000 each over the time period covered by the lawsuit. I don't know if the IRS and Cal FTB could audit all the way back to 2006, but they could certainly go back three years.
Don't forget that this court ruling also officially judges that the entire $40 per private dance which customers paid directly to dancers was in fact ( taxable ) dancer income, even if the dancers didn't actually receive the whole $40 because the club 'illegally' took $14 of that $40 ( money spent on 'illegal' items can't be used as a legitimate tax deduction ). So this court case has the potential for opening up a Pandora's Box of tax issues for California dancers. If there is a good side, if and when the class action lawsuit dancers do actually receive any money ( pending a successful appeal ), that money will have already been taxed thus no additional taxes will be due on the settlement payments.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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Originally Posted by
NightGoddess
Hell no, I'd move. They are taking $14 freaking dollars out of your dance??? That's ridiculous!
This is the standard for Southern California if not the entire state. ALL clubs are like this!
OP, where do you work?! (If you don't mind me asking...) I'm going to be looking for a new club and I do NOT want to work in a place like this. I completely agree with you that the overcharging hustle is necessary.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
In addition to Melonie's theory, it could be that a lot of customers have complained to management about how you girls "make most of your money" and they are trying to deal with it in a way that is fair for both parties. I have heard a lot about LA and the environment there and it sounds a lot like Toronto...overrun with girls, super competitive, lots of extras etc. I also know a lot of girls there would do the exact same thing, dancers will call it overcounting and customers will call it ROBing. Now, you're going to do whatever you've gotta do, but let me tell you, I get sooooooo sick of hearing stories from customers about how Girl X took him for 4 dances, charged him for 7, and cleaned him out for the night. It's not fair to the customer, and the other girls that he may have wanted to go for dances with that another girl takes all his money without earning it. Hey, if your customer wants to stay in the back for 20 songs, awesome, but don't overcharge, it gives customers a bad vibe, makes them feel taken advantage of, and much less likely to return to the club (or any club for that matter) in the future. Ths tactic may help you make money immediately but it is short sighted. AND it make you less credible when you actually DO lose track of songs. I hate when that happens and I have to chose between either getting more money and having the customer think I'm a ROB and possibly never taking me for a dance again, and being shorted. If customers weren't constantly being ripped off by this tactic they'd probably be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt when this happens, but instead we're viewed as being sneaky. Sorry for the mini rant but this issue is one of my biggest peeves in the industry aside from extras and just wanted to point out how it can hurt ALL of our incomes in the long run. It sucks that your club takes $14 out of every song but I mean, that's still $26 for you which is more than the standard $20 a song so while this may be an annoying thing to deal with, I think you still come out ahead of the game. And the plus side is that you don't have to argue with guys that try and rip YOU off right?
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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Originally Posted by
Odette
In addition to Melonie's theory, it could be that a lot of customers have complained to management about how you girls "make most of your money" and they are trying to deal with it in a way that is fair for both parties. I have heard a lot about LA and the environment there and it sounds a lot like Toronto...overrun with girls, super competitive, lots of extras etc. I also know a lot of girls there would do the exact same thing, dancers will call it overcounting and customers will call it ROBing. Now, you're going to do whatever you've gotta do, but let me tell you, I get sooooooo sick of hearing stories from customers about how Girl X took him for 4 dances, charged him for 7, and cleaned him out for the night. It's not fair to the customer, and the other girls that he may have wanted to go for dances with that another girl takes all his money without earning it. Hey, if your customer wants to stay in the back for 20 songs, awesome, but don't overcharge, it gives customers a bad vibe, makes them feel taken advantage of, and much less likely to return to the club (or any club for that matter) in the future. Ths tactic may help you make money immediately but it is short sighted. AND it make you less credible when you actually DO lose track of songs. I hate when that happens and I have to chose between either getting more money and having the customer think I'm a ROB and possibly never taking me for a dance again, and being shorted. If customers weren't constantly being ripped off by this tactic they'd probably be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt when this happens, but instead we're viewed as being sneaky. Sorry for the mini rant but this issue is one of my biggest peeves in the industry aside from extras and just wanted to point out how it can hurt ALL of our incomes in the long run. It sucks that your club takes $14 out of every song but I mean, that's still $26 for you which is more than the standard $20 a song so while this may be an annoying thing to deal with, I think you still come out ahead of the game. And the plus side is that you don't have to argue with guys that try and rip YOU off right?
This is making me think of the 'Why do guys get so offended when asked to pay upfront?' thread from awhile back. i would think a 'pay upfront' policy would cut out a lot of the ripping-off attempts of both sides.
Lots of ROB customers, & unfortunately, lots of ROB dancers. They really just perpetuate each other. But God forbid girls made any effort to improve their sales skills instead of resorting to simple thievery.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Wow. They assured us that we still are independent contractors aka under the table if we choose to be...but all this info is making my head spin!
I'm not making $26 actually I'm making $20. $14 taken out per dance by club then tip out = almost exactly $20/dance.
I also am a newer dancer (6months) and havnt thought about long term effects of my miscount ing. It's a regular practice done by all dancers here at my club so I never thought twice about it esp since I don't have regulars yet.
I think my plan is to wait a week or 2 to see how bad it effects my money then it start to look at 4play....I heard its good there and I have the look they want I believe. Could lose 5lbs but if they deny me I can lose it and try again. I really liked my club a lot and hopefully I can work it out and stay tho.
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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Originally Posted by
Melonie
Don't forget that this court ruling also officially judges that the entire $40 per private dance which customers paid directly to dancers was in fact ( taxable ) dancer income, even if the dancers didn't actually receive the whole $40 because the club 'illegally' took $14 of that $40 ( money spent on 'illegal' items can't be used as a legitimate tax deduction ). So this court case has the potential for opening up a Pandora's Box of tax issues for California dancers.
This is very important. At my club, we get taxed on the $26, not the $40, however, plenty of dancers are hit so hard by tipping out that they are earning less per dance than the amount they are being taxed for. Not me, because, yeah, I fucking overcharge, but I see it happen all the time at the end of the night. I'm sure as fuck not paying taxes on money I'm not allowed to take home. Tip outs are outrageous here and I kind of hate everyone in other states who only has to pay a $100 house fee and a 10% dj tip or whatever.
At one club I worked at, house fees and dance cuts were around 40% of your nightly earnings, while the tip out was around 25%-30%. Yeah, that adds up to the club taking at least 60% of your money. Still surprised we take an extra $40 when we can?
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
Girls come saavvee meeee! Lol. Problem solved Ill just take over the club ha! Just kidding. Like I said I'll just play it out and stay positive! And confident!! I think my strategy is to say after the dance "you can kindly pay me my tip for the dance now. Then pay for the dances at the bar" and try and work it that way. Maybe this will be good for my tips who knows!
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Re: Is this normal I'm freaking out!
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They assured us that we still are independent contractors aka under the table if we choose to be...but all this info is making my head spin!
It's probable that the Cal FTB won't place much stock in the club's 'assurances'. Just sayin' ...