Wow, even with sex workers.
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It's not really about the strip club attendance for you though, it's that you go for emotionally unstable dancers in great need of money and then somehow expect them to not be a mess when you push them to do things OTC you know they probably wouldn't have done otherwise.
Point here is I think it could be possible for you to attend the strip clubs without feeling guilt or have it affect your humanity much, you would just have to either 1, only ask the dancers for things that fit their job description or 2, simply seek out the dancers that are comfortable and happy with OTC work when you want OTC.
Either option will create way less drama, annoyance and tears for everyone involved than the tactic you describe here.
To go for dancers who are in a vulnerable situation is just asking for trouble, it's completely unnecessary, and yes it could also be considered the wrong thing to do so it's understandable you feel guilt tbh.
Funny, I've been to TUSCL (or whatever the hell the name of it is) and there is old Rick Dugan, posting and getting trolled by some lowlife asshole. That site, which I think is 90% chest thumping fibsters, has an almost oppressive atmosphere of cruelty and coldness, mixed with a level of poverty that ought to induce self-reflection. But RD posts essentially the same stuff there that he does here.
Fundamentally, he seems to be honest. I say "seems" because who the hell knows. And you all must know that any blue with a conscience has asked himself, "am I hurting someone here".
Putting that aside for the moment, the answer, RD, I suggest, is that, as you once told me, you know exactly what you are doing. I think, reading between the lines, you are as concerned by the potential for losing control of your own life as you are by the feelings of the women in this scenario. The disruption in a teacup is fascinating, but if I understand your circumstances correctly, you might be elevating your own risk.
I should have quoted the person I was replying to
The pity hustle is bold also because we have all seen it in real life as well. My natural reaction is just to talk to a girl that is crying, by which I mean just listening quietly while she vents, that way she is better off than before, but she is not getting anything else.Quote:
whether she is going for the pity hustle or not.
Bingo. That said I do think there is a percentage, always ranging from 51% about money, to 100% of it being all.Quote:
is the fact that knowing it's solely about money for the woman is a huge turn-off.
DoņaDiabla, as an apex blue whale ;) it would be an honor to be deep hustled by an apex predator such as yourself(?), I consent to it because I have no dependents, my savings exist only to be re-invested or for entertainment, and lastly I can emotionally handle anything.
The important thing is that you are questioning your reaction and boundaries. The first girl I wouldn't feel bad about, the second two are obv uncomfortable so although I don't think your a monster I'd steer clear of them since they obviously aren't 100%.
If I were you, I wouldn't take strippers out of the club at all. They are just dancers for entertainment, nothing more nothing less.
If you want to have a more private session with a woman you need to call a call girl. A call girl is a different breed. Call girls are tough cookies who have completely crossed over and have no guilt or qualms about what they do so they're not going to be bothering you later or crying on your shoulders giving you a sob story.
Just like men who have guilt paying for sex you have women who have guilt for selling sex and that's the issue with the girls you're dealing with.
I always say that my problems and friendships end the second I walk through the door. No, Rick you're not a monster. I hope one day I get the pleasure of meeting you because you seem like a cool guy. Come to think of it, most if not all of the blues have been awesome.
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments. There are too many to respond to individually, but I did want to take an opportunity to respond to some of the themes.
For those who keep suggesting that I am specifically targeting vulnerable women, asked and answered in post 15. Oh, and to the one person who suggested that I am deranged because I am ok with fucking someone who is participating only because she needs the money, you just maligned the underlying premise of the entire escort industry. I am ok with the notion that I might not be the first or even 20th choice for someone 20+ years my junior. Would it be better if I was one of those goofballs who not only wants to fuck a much younger woman, but also gets emotional about it and needs her to pretend that she is as eager as me?
As far as switching from OTC with dancers to escorts, that isn't going to happen, for a lot of reasons. There have been endless debates on this topic over the years on here and I certainly see both sides. But suffice it to say that what I do works best for me, or at least it does most of the time.
Those who raised the holidays as an additional stress factor are probably right on the money, though I'm not ready to completely discount my own role just yet. Maybe they did pick some coldness from me. I am still trying to work it out, but these were good starts.
For blues who thought this was a good opportunity to come on here and whine some more, either directly or by lecturing dancers as to what is or is not ok, that is not what this was for. This was a simple self reflection question. I also don't buy this notion that dancers are supposed to also act like these guys' personal bankers and voluntarily turn away money because some guys may spend too much.
At the end of the day, there is no escaping the fact that there is a natural predatory element to strip club environments. With 3 girls crying in 2 weeks, I really wanted to reflect on whether I was getting TOO predatory. Maybe, as one poster suggested, I feel some of that thinking bleeding over into my broader life and it made me pause.
Anyway, this was a lot to think about and thank you again for your thoughts.
I'm late to the party, but my 2 cents... and I'm afraid this will sound harsh and that some of my own gender will not be pleased:
I think you had a perfectly natural reaction to be annoyed. You are paying for sex, which is a service, and you expected it to not come with a side of sobbing. No professional escort or 'extras stripper' would have reacted that way in front of a client.
As far as them being vulnerable.. They chose to become extras girls/'escorts' when they left the club. It takes a thick skin and some discipline to successfully be in this industry. The club is full of predatory men, it's a job hazard. This is what may piss off some pinks, but I have no real sympathy for girls that do things like that and then cry that the guy coerced them or something.
You need a backbone and the ability to say NO, and if it is outside of your personal values to do OTC, then don't fucking do it.
And the whole 'holiday' excuse... Ugh. God forbid you have to buy your kids small gifts and explain that it's tough this year. These ladies could also have taken another option; donating plasma, selling unused items at home, babysitting, cleaning houses... and really, how much money do you really have to spend on a present? I spent $9 on a game for my nephew and it was the hit of Christmas. Even with 4 kids, I'm sure these girls could have gotten a little more creative and made something work with $40 or $50 and NOT had to do OTC that made them so upset. So no, no real sympathy on that end either.
I don't think this situation rick describes is coercion in the sense of anything forcefull blatantly against their will but making decisions when you are stressed out trying to get your immediate needs met is going to cloud your judgment.
This thread is a great reminder of the customer mind set.
No matter what they say or how nice they seem it's just business. Your always replaceable.
I do have some sympathy for the girls. Sometimes losing a good customer stings.
But business is business.
Very true. This is discretionary entertainment and, as we all know, even the best regular has a shelf life. For me, even under the best of circumstances, where she is beautiful and is thoroughly entertaining me ITC and OTC, I cannot make it more than 8 months before I am looking for a new favorite and I haven't had one who could keep my attention for even half that long since I left the northeast (man do I miss the beautiful and lively Italian and Latina girls in the northeast clubs). Simply put, I get bored and yearn for variety.
But that also cuts both ways. Girls disappear from regulars' lives all the time without a trace. They are also prone to jumping ship when a bigger ship passes by and honks a horn. So while a favorite may be emotionally invested in my money, I operate under no illusion that the investment extends to me as a person. Unless of course I am mistaken and the invitations to my former favorites' kids birthday parties or family barbecues are on their way even as I type this, but I won't hold my breath. ;)
At the end of the day these are transitory commercial relationships involving mutual benefit. It is unhealthy for either side to become too reliant upon a fav/reg situation because it will inevitably end at some point. Over the 20 years I have been doing this, I've seen countless dramatic moments with dancers becoming too emotional over the loss of a regular's money or customers losing their damned minds over dancers who they became too attached to. As the Spanish say, no bueno.
Question. Do you think they were crying over loosing out on future money with you or these women actually got comfortable and attached emotionally to you? Cause from what you said it seemed like the latter. I do think it could be possible for a woman whose never done otc before to go in thinking she could be just straight transactional but end up catching feelings especially if the guy has a magnetizing personality or the woman is projecting her Pretty Woman type fantasies in real life .
Also you never mentioned what happened with the first woman to cause her to get reprimanded by management
Sorry Rick, to me it sounds like you're grooming ladies, since you decribed the three women as not regular extras girls. And trying to make a mutually beneficial "transaction" with a dancer who you know needs the money and is having issues, and seems torn... ergh. And I get it, it's a club, it's a hustle, but were also talking about people, and your response to her being upset DOES make me think you might need to step away and reevaluate exactly what you, personally, are getting out of these transactions, beyond the "transaction"...
All this time & I never knew what OTC meant.Just wow
I would have to agree with most of your statements about commercial relationships in this industry. Personally, I do not understand either side getting emotional detached to each other. However, I really do not understand the point of this thread if you felt this way. Frankly, I believe that you are over thinking your behavior towards these women.Personally, I felt they got stressed out and you got sick of their tears. They are only human and made a hustling mistake. Just pick strippers who are about their money and into entertaining. I just do not see this issue as philosophical debate about your humanity. :)
Yeah, I have to questioned your statements about the "pity hustle". I do not know about you but I have not seen many people use that hustle in real life. Frankly, I have seen some true hustlers and no one is using this weak hustle. Usually, the pity hustle is kind of a cop out because it does not take any real effort. It just a sob story, tears, and playing the victim role. It does not work on men who have been harden when seeing women's tears. :)
That is why I thought it was bold, meaning it was a last ditch attempt. Assuming it is a hustle of course suffice to say one should not assume the worst, only protect yourself from being taken advantage of.
Just to be clear the pity hustle is quite common in real life but from civie women, even friends and family do it. I don't know about pros so I defer to your opinion.
Again, that is what you have seen and your experience. In my culture, women do not cry to men about nothing nor seek their pity.This is frowned up in my culture. We do not use the pity hustle nor do people around me use such a hustle. When my ancestors were running brothels; the pity hustle was not allowed in their establishments because it was seen as a sign of a weak hustler. Because they felt that sex work should be fun, light-hearted, and make you a better hustler in life. However, this is just a cultural and taste thing. Just to be clear not everyone is from the same background as you are on SW, okay.:)
I think it's important to see what you yourself can change and what you can complain about - but no matter how much you complain it will stay the same.
When it comes to the girls of course you could argue that they put themselves in that situation, they should have done this or that instead, but does it even matter? People make bad decisions all the time, it's human, sometimes they try to handle something but they fail.
We could all be idealists with our heads in the clouds here and say get out of the industry if you can't handle it, and I mean I too say "don't do it, stay away" every now and then to newbies who show up with unrealistic expectations, but in the end it's also not realistic at all to expect everyone to follow that advice. In reality there will always be people who are in over their head. Who are desperate or self destructive or just unaware of their own limitations or unaware of other options. People who will eventually have to get out or take a serious look at themselves and what they are willing to do. You can't do anything to change this, you can complain and be annoyed all you want but it won't help. You might as well yell at clouds. They have to change themselves and many of them won't.
But while you can't force other people to act perfectly you CAN take a step back when you see there's a risk of overstepping someone else's comfort zone. You can make an effort to avoid these type of situations.
When there are plenty of people who have already made the choice to sell sex, do OTC, who are not new to it nor hesitating, instead they are experienced and comfortable enough with the idea to make it part of their career, there is the simple option of picking those people when you want that job done. Trying to get with torn dancers who have never done anything like that before is not a good idea and the easy solution is don't do it. Yes you can be annoyed that people try to do things they apparently were not ready to do, yes you can say you'd never be unprofessional like that in their situation, yes you can yell at clouds, but if that's all you do and you don't look at your own actions in this then expect to be disappointed again and again when reality hits you in the face.
It's about whether you will keep going like you had nothing to do with the outcome or whether you will make a change.
^^Yeah I find it odd that he asked if he is being inappropriate and should start paying more attention to his twinges of guilt, so then I say that IMO he should because I consider his behavior to be really inappropriate, and then he basically denies that he might be doing anything inappropriate. Like......okay. I also don't understand why he thinks that this proves that he isn't creepily grooming women:
^^Like I'm sorry(not really) but that explanation is extremely creepy to me and did nothing but confirm exactly what it is that I was having an issue with.
I took issue with the notion that I was specifically seeking out vulnerable women, which I think I addressed. But I also take objection to the notion that I am "grooming" them like some kind of pimp. It is your prerogative to view what I do in any way you want, including "creepy." But these are not 16 year old girls at the bus station and I certainly don't control them in any way. These are seasoned dancers and I am one of any number of customers who they could target on any given night. Seriously now.
I questioned myself only because of the 3 girls crying in 2 weeks. But honestly, I have been doing things this way for a very long time now and I've never had a string of these types of issues before now. The more I read here and think about it, the more I'm starting to wonder if maybe I just hit a bad patch.
I really think the OP assumes that because he is always very patient and 'respectful' and polite with his OTC maneuvering that his behavior is therefor completely acceptable. Because he is 'acting like a gentleman,' but his manners aren't the issue. If I was not into the idea of OTC and had a guy at my club that was waiting and watching and waiting and watching and waiting and watching till he felt like he could 'catch me at the right time'(the OP's words) so he could finally persuade me to go OTC for him...........I would be so creeped and out and would never go near him. But I assume that's because--unlike the women he was targeting--I am not one to get taken advantage of.