-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
I really think the OP assumes that because he is always very patient and 'respectful' and polite with his OTC maneuvering that his behavior is therefor completely acceptable. Because he is 'acting like a gentleman,' but his manners aren't the issue. If I was not into the idea of OTC and had a guy at my club that was waiting and watching and waiting and watching and waiting and watching till he felt like he could 'catch me at the right time'(the OP's words) so he could finally persuade me to go OTC for him...........I would be so creeped and out and would never go near him. But I assume that's because--unlike the women he was targeting--I am not one to get taken advantage of.
Oh please taken advantage of. These are grown women who get offered money for a service and can just say no thank you if it creeps them out or makes them uncomfortable. I have no problem with the rest of what you have been saying but these girls are taken advantage of about as much as any man that walks into a club. This is ADULT work and both sides go into it expecting to be dealing with other adults who can make decisions for themselves.
As to the original question I don't think it makes you a sociopath. The club is pretty much dog eat dog. If you aren't hardened to certain things you will end up being the one "taken advantage of". JMO
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
I really think the OP assumes that because he is always very patient and 'respectful' and polite with his OTC maneuvering that his behavior is therefor completely acceptable. Because he is 'acting like a gentleman,' but his manners aren't the issue. If I was not into the idea of OTC and had a guy at my club that was waiting and watching and waiting and watching and waiting and watching till he felt like he could 'catch me at the right time'(the OP's words) so he could finally persuade me to go OTC for him...........I would be so creeped and out and would never go near him. But I assume that's because--unlike the women he was targeting--I am not one to get taken advantage of.
OR...
Maybe I just assumed that they were grown adults who could make grown-up decisions. Saying that they were being "taken advantage of" diminishes them and every other woman who ever decides to sell sex to make ends meet. There is a big difference between making it easy to say yes, even including being there at the right time, and trying to control/groom someone. I'm sure that many of them had other options besides going OTC with me - I was just the most convenient option at that moment.
And if that bothers you, then so be it. I was hoping to have this discussion without too much debate over the morality of hustles on either side of the tip rail, be they attempts of guys to get XYZ from girls or strippers attempting to max value from their customers, but I am starting to see that this is going to be impossible.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbleHead
Oh please taken advantage of. These are grown women who get offered money for a service and can just say no thank you if it creeps them out or makes them uncomfortable.
And to purposely approach women who would normally say no to these offers during times when you know they're desperate and more likely to unwillingly accept still makes someone a creep IMO. It's entrapment. Are the women smart for caving in or for ending up in the situation in the first place? No. Does that make the OP and less of a creep? Not in my book.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Saying that they were being "taken advantage of" diminishes them and every other woman who ever decides to sell sex to make ends meet.
I would completely disagree. The women you are dealing with do not represent the entirety of escorting, and you and your tactics do not represent the entirety of escorting clientele. So not sure how you think I am diminishing the entire escort industry.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
And to purposely approach women who would normally say no to these offers during times when you know they're desperate and more likely to unwillingly accept still makes someone a creep IMO. It's entrapment. Are the women smart for caving in or for ending up in the situation in the first place? No. Does that make the OP and less of a creep? Not in my book.
Actually Genoveve, they approach me. Always. I don't chase strippers. I also don't specifically seek out vulnerable ones, as I've told you 3 times now.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
And if that bothers you, then so be it. I was hoping to have this discussion without too much debate over the morality of hustles on either side of the tip rail, be they attempts of guys to get XYZ from girls or strippers attempting to max value from their customers, but I am starting to see that this is going to be impossible.
Well you asked if we thought that your long term stripclub attendance could be negatively impacting your humanity, and based off of your quotes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Now to get some of the obvious out of the way, none of these three do this as a matter of course. Suffice it to say that I'm a long time regular at their clubs and know the landscape about as well as any customer can. The first two did so because I caught them at the right time - they are both mothers and need extra stuff at certain times of year for their kids. The third is in the same boat and was facing a holiday without Xmas presents for her kids. Now maybe pity hustling was part of the angle for at least the third one, but I know for a fact that her need was real enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
The worst part though is that, in the moment, all I could think about is how all of this crying was dampening my fun buzz. I wasn't angry, but rather just cold. Over the years, I have also found myself getting ever better at assessing and even manipulating OTC targets through quiet kindness, even as that kindness was only surface deep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
I've made no bones about the fact that, if I am enjoying a girl ITC and I sense the opportunity to take it further, I'll make the move. And yes, sometimes I will wait in the weeds until she is comfortable with me and she finds herself needing more than she can make ITC, for whatever reason.
I would say yes.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
I also don't specifically seek out vulnerable ones, as I've told you 3 times now.
Then why do your own words contradict that?
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
I would completely disagree. The women you are dealing with do not represent the entirety of escorting, and you and your tactics do not represent the entirety of escorting clientele. So not sure how you think I am diminishing the entire escort industry.
Oh, but you most certainly are diminishing them. You are taking the view that they are too weak or vulnerable to willingly agree to have sex for money simply because they need the money. You do realize that a high percentage of escorts end up escorting for that same reason, no?
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Oh, but you most certainly are diminishing them.
Still completely disagree and obviously I understand that escorts escort for money. Again why you are using my disapproval over your personal OTC tactics and experiences to say that I'm diminishing escorts I have no idea. I think you're just trying to change the subject tbh.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
Then why do your own words contradict that?
I think you need to read more carefully. I outlined their particular situations, but I said nothing about seeking them out or chasing them down. Each one sought me out, not the other way around. As I said above, I don't chase strippers, ever.
And now this thread has really gone off the cliff.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Well I will leave your thread alone since I really have no idea what you were hoping to hear and you obviously don't like what I have to say, plus I'm getting a little bored with repeatedly calling you a manipulative weirdo.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
Again why you are using my disapproval over your personal OTC tactics and experiences to say that I'm diminishing escorts I have no idea.
Because they are two sides of the same coin. You cannot claim that I am "entrapping" or "grooming" them without also taking the position that they were too vulnerable to make an adult decision when they said yes, which of course is absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
Well I will leave your thread alone since I really have no idea what you were hoping to hear and you obviously don't like what I have to say, plus I'm getting a little bored with repeatedly calling you a manipulative weirdo.
At least "manipulative weirdo" sounds like a step up from "creep", whether you intended it or not. ;)
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Because they are two sides of the same coin. You cannot claim that I am "entrapping" or "grooming" them without also taking the position that they were too vulnerable to make an adult decision when they said yes, which of course is absurd.
I never said the girls have no responsibility for making choices that weren't wise for them. But their responsibility doesn't negate your part in it what I consider to be your creepiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
At least "manipulative weirdo" sounds like a step up from "creep", whether you intended it or not. ;)
Tbh I wrote 'creep' then edited it to 'manipulative weirdo' for the sake of not being redundant. I went back to re-edit 'manipulative weirdo' to something softer but couldn't really think of anything.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
The easiest way to make sure it is not grooming (accidental grooming is possible) is talk to her the next time she approaches you and ask point blank if she is OK with your arrangement. If there is any EMOTIONAL hesitation then just end it right there.
They may be adults, but adults are not robots either, they sometimes say yes even if they are suffering with the decision inside.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
OK. For me (& I went back & reread the OP) there's some ' missing puzzle pieces' of which the 1st incident you don't want to elaborate on..
& in regards to the second incident, you said "she didn't want me or anyone else think she does this type of thing regularly"?
I subbed a couple words but that's the gist of it, did she tell you that or you assumed it?
Just a bit confused
Idk, in all sceneries we can get more than we bargained for?
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
I caught them at the right time... but I know for a fact that her need was real enough.... even manipulating OTC targets through quiet kindness, even as that kindness was only surface deep.
Sounds predatory. You mention being adults and while legally they may be, from your description it doesn't sound like mentally/emotionally the ones you deal with are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
At the end of the day these are transitory commercial relationships involving mutual benefit
IN theory yes, in practice not always. IME being an adult, or at least a compassionate one, is taking responsibility not just for your well-being but for those you interact with. There's a difference between agreeing to an act and being comfortable with the act, either during or after it. Now it's your prerogative to think otherwise. And more power to you if you feel like it aligns with your tenets. I don't.
Anyways good luck and just my 0.02
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whirlerz
OK. For me (& I went back & reread the OP) there's some ' missing puzzle pieces' of which the 1st incident you don't want to elaborate on..
& in regards to the second incident, you said "she didn't want me or anyone else think she does this type of thing regularly"?
I subbed a couple words but that's the gist of it, did she tell you that or you assumed it?
Just a bit confused
Idk, in all sceneries we can get more than we bargained for?
Ok, I will elaborate a little in the interest of fairness...
With girl #1, she was someone who I took OTC a few times some months back. She eventually left the club for a few months, but I had stopped seeing her OTC even before she left. Without getting too graphic, things were just not clicking with us OTC and I was paying her a decent amount of money for fairly lousy experiences. It is too bad because she is a beautiful girl, but it is what it is. However, she recently returned to the club and, for some reason, got it in her head that she just had to talk me out. She was drunk, which I'm sure was part of it. She spent an hour making a low-key scene at the bar, despite me repeatedly making it crystal clear that it was not going to happen. Finally, the bartender got fed up and went to talk to the manager, who came over and escorted her back to the dressing room. 15 minutes later she was on her way out the door.
With respect to girl #2, she actually told me that. I don't know why it came up when it did, after I had already taken her OTC 3 times prior, but it did.
Hope that helps provide a little clarity.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
And to purposely approach women who would normally say no to these offers during times when you know they're desperate and more likely to unwillingly accept still makes someone a creep IMO. It's entrapment. Are the women smart for caving in or for ending up in the situation in the first place? No. Does that make the OP and less of a creep? Not in my book.
And if he instead said "hey you need money, let's rob a bank" and they took him up on it, which they normally wouldn't, does it make them any less culpable? No, they made the choice knowing full well that they may not be comfortable with the outcome.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
^^^google Stockholm syndrome because yes people can make choice they wouldn't normally make, like robbing a bank, for a number of reasons
these women made "choices" under duress (stressed about needing money for bills and for gifts for their kids).
When you make a choices to get your basic needs met it's not the same as making a well thought out clear headed choice.
Robbing a bank for the hell of it vs Robbing a bank to help pay for an expensive medicine your kid needs - the choice is the same but the reason behind it is different
Many women will do shit they deep down don't want to do to provide for their kids/family. Then realize during or after the fact they are in over their head.
Choice is not that clear cut. Many factors go into decision making.
Plus 3 women in a row ?!? and the common denominator is one man aka rick dugans
Not every woman in the club is a stone cold hardened seasoned & experienced. Some have these things call emotions. Some of the males in the thread must not have ever had a rough day at work that affected them emotionally?!?
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbleHead
And if he instead said "hey you need money, let's rob a bank" and they took him up on it, which they normally wouldn't, does it make them any less culpable? No, they made the choice knowing full well that they may not be comfortable with the outcome.
Well to that I would again say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
I never said the girls have no responsibility for making choices that weren't wise for them. But their responsibility doesn't negate your part in it what I consider to be your creepiness.
Wouldn't make the OP any less of a bank robber.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
^^^google Stockholm syndrome because yes people can make choice they wouldn't normally make, like robbing a bank, for a number of reasons
these women made "choices" under duress (stressed about needing money for bills and for gifts for their kids).
When you make a choices to get your basic needs met it's not the same as making a well thought out clear headed choice.
Robbing a bank for the hell of it vs Robbing a bank to help pay for an expensive medicine your kid needs - the choice is the same but the reason behind it is different
Many women will do shit they deep down don't want to do to provide for their kids/family. Then realize during or after the fact they are in over their head.
Choice is not that clear cut. Many factors go into decision making.
Plus 3 women in a row ?!? and the common denominator is one man aka rick dugans
Not every woman in the club is a stone cold hardened seasoned & experienced. Some have these things call emotions. Some of the males in the thread must not have ever had a rough day at work that affected them emotionally?!?
Ridiculous. Comparing wanting Christmas presents to needing medicine and otc to Stockholm Syndrome.
Anyway the only wording I took issue with in this thread was that these girls are being taken advantage of. They are (non captive) adults with a choice. If anything the OP is taking advantage of timing but he's no more taking advantage of the girls than a dancer is taking advantage of a customer who is horny by draining his wallet.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
Well to that I would again say:
Wouldn't make the OP any less of a bank robber.
But you did indirectly say he was taking advantage of them.
And yes he would be a bank robber. I don't think the OP has ever argued that he isn't a "bank robber" but is he a creepy "bank robber"? lol
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbleHead
But you did indirectly say he was taking advantage of them.
I think I was pretty direct about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbleHead
And yes he would be a bank robber. I don't think the OP has ever argued that he isn't a "bank robber" but is he a creepy "bank robber"? lol
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of my back-and-forth with the OP involves me saying he is a creepy manipulator and him arguing that he's not. Someone get this guy the Cliff Notes.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
I was comparing Stockholm syndrome to the bank robbing situation you suggested. And describing how choice and free will is not that cut and dry.
Of course medicine is necessary but gifts are not however women will do whatever it takes to provide for their kids - even if it's something they deep down they aren't interested in/don't want to do. When it comes to making your kids happy you'll do just about anything.
Me personally I've made shitty choices when I was feeling stressed and vulnerable. And I had one day out of 3 years where I lost my shit and cried at the club.
But What's ridiculous is you failed to read his first post on page one.
He clearly outlined how he knew which ones to target, knew they NEEDED the money, 3 girls cried as a result of interacting with him, AND he felt not one bit of guilt or compassion as long as his needs were met. I'm not trying to label anyone I don't know well but This behavior described is trenching into sociopathy/narcissism waters.
-
Re: Customer and Dancer Humanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genoveve
I think I was pretty direct about it.
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of my back-and-forth with the OP involves me saying he is a creepy manipulator and him arguing that he's not. Someone get this guy the Cliff Notes.
Don't need Cliff Notes. Like I said the only issue I've had with anything you've said was about these girls being taken advantage of and that's the only thing I've really addressed.