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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Sure you weren't trying to draw the inference Eagle. That's why you then plowed right ahead to claim that we would have had an even greater death rate if we followed the Swedish model. A passive aggressive inference is still an inference, even if you try to disown it as such.
To your other points, there is no way whatsoever to know the veracity of your claims and all your angst ridden hyperbole doesn't make any of that more right Dr. Eagle, nor do your broad sweeping generalities about what you believe "doctors and scientists overwhelming agree" on. But the most angst ridden of those same experts claimed that Florida would have 100,000 deaths because they closed too late and look how that went. And putting aside your dubious claim about the quality of the Swedish healthcare system, there are many other differences between Sweden.
I've never heard anyone say FL would have 100,000 deaths. You probably made that up. By practically every measurement, Sweden is better off than the US, in terms of dealing with COVID-19 sickness. They have a lower poverty rate, more physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 people, a much lower obesity rate, and is less densely populated than most major American cities. If the US followed the same policies as Sweden, you would expect us to have a much higher death rate, not lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
Florida, with 22 million people, including a large elderly population and plenty of poor people, is a prime example of a more nuanced approach. The state closed later than most states, is opening earlier and, even during the worst of it, imposed a "lockdown" that was far less draconian than most states. How many people died in Florida? Not the 100,000 predicted by many pundits, but less than 2,300.
Florida is much less densely populated than NYC. I don't know of anyone who predicted 100,000 deaths there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
These never-ending lockdowns are what happens when decision making is made by frightened people acting out of panic. I'm sure that all of this is very emotionally satisfying to those who are naturally fearful and seek justification to continue to behave so, but the hard evidence here in the U.S suggests that climate and population density were the two primary determinants of infection spread and that age was the primary factor in mortality. The same evidence also now suggests that we could have prevented tens of thousands of deaths if we had simply locked down the nursing homes sooner, as FL did.
No, the lockdowns are based on sound science, The policies you advocate have already failed. Sweden now has over 4,200 deaths, including 95 this past day, while neighboring Norway has 235, yet you insist we should be following Sweden's model, and not Norway's. That would only result in more deaths than we're having already.
Approximately 1/3 of deaths occurred in nursing homes, which is very high, but even if we exclude all nursing home deaths, the US would have had approximately 70,000 deaths from the virus, which is still extremely high.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
But let's say you are right and people will huddle in their homes even if we open up. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it. Some business income is better than none and each person should decide when the right time is for him/her.
No, each person should not decide when the right time is for him/her because they're not just harming themselves if they catch the virus, they're endangering the lives of others. Doctors, nurses, and grocery store workers shouldn't have their lives endangered by people who refuse to act responsibly. Too many of them have died already.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
I’m curious as to going out to eat at restaurants.... what do y’all do to protect yourself?
Do you go to restaurants less crowded? Eat outside? Or y’all still getting it togo?
I got another invite to dine in but I’m honestly questioning it.
Everybody wears a mask unless actually eating or drinking. Lot of spacing. Limits of no more than 4 to a table. Tables at least 6 feet apart.
They are going to have to do something with the bathrooms to limit use to one or two people at a time - no lines for the ladies room.
Eating outside is MUCH less risky. And they will have to do much more sanitizing. Many restaurants in Georgia and Florida are already doing these things.
Vegas just came out with new guidelines for casinos limiting number of people at blackjack and poker tables etc.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
I’m curious as to going out to eat at restaurants.... what do y’all do to protect yourself?
Do you go to restaurants less crowded? Eat outside? Or y’all still getting it togo?
I got another invite to dine in but I’m honestly questioning it.
i went yesterday to a sit down restaurant and it was so weird. All the workers had masks and they had booths were u couldn’t sit at. Our lil group didn’t wear masks and the menu was limited. There were maybe 6 tables being used. I felt safe eating inside - my kid came with us and he hasn’t been to any stores in the past 2 months. So for me to let my kid come with me was a big deal. But I know the people who I went with have been social distancing, just like we have. I don’t plan on doing this weekly.. I rather do togo if anything but I needed to feel normal. But honestly if there were more people inside I would of not stayed.
What we been doing with my parents is grabbing food Togo and then eating outside 6 ft apart :( busting out the fan for next week cuz it’s gonna be hotttt AF.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
I've never heard anyone say FL would have 100,000 deaths. You probably made that up. By practically every measurement, Sweden is better off than the US, in terms of being negatively affected by COVID-19. They have a lower poverty rate, more physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 people, a much lower obesity rate, and is less densely populated than major American cities. If the US followed the same policies as Sweden, you would expect us to have a much higher death rate, not lower.
Florida is much less densely populated than NYC. I don't know of anyone who predicted 100,000 deaths there.
No, the lockdowns are based on sound science, The policies you advocate have already failed. Sweden now has over 4,200 deaths, including 95 this passed day, while neighboring Norway has 235, yet you insist we should be following Sweden's model, and not Norway's. That would only result in more deaths than we're having already.
Approximately 1/3 of deaths occurred in nursing homes, which is very high, but even if we exclude all nursing home deaths, the US would have had approximately 70,000 deaths from the virus, which is still extremely high.
No, each person should not decide when the right time is for him/her because they're not just harming themselves if they catch the virus, they're endangering the lives of others. Doctors, nurses, and grocery store workers shouldn't have their lives endangered by people who refuse to act responsibly. Too many of them have died already.
If you want to talk about responsibility and accountability why not start with Cuomo, Murphy , DeBlasio and a host of others ?
If people are wearing a mask and gloves, socially distancing etc., avoiding crowds etc., washing hands and sanitizing then how are they getting infected ? The answer is that for the most part they are not.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
There are a lot of rituals and sacraments that cannot be performed over an Internet connection, so this has indeed disrupted religious practices. Baptisms have been postponed; marriages have been rescheduled; confessions cannot occur; the Eucharist (extremely important to Catholics) cannot be received; first communions and confirmations were delayed; the Torah cannot be touched or carried; holy water cannot be obtained; religious education classes were modified and/or cancelled, etc., etc.
So this has indeed been a tremendous hardship upon religious communities and I agree with Eric wholeheartedly on the absurdity of the contradictions.
Liquor and weed stores IMO aren’t essential but they managed to stay open because they don’t draw crowds and the service can be done curbside/contactless.
I hate to sound like I’m bragging but our church here is very innovative and they have adapted very well keeping things going despite the building being closed to public. They are delivering meals to elderly/sick/etc, all classes and service are online for now.
As far as baptisms, marriages, etc. I don’t have much to say on that except to say while I personally could get a religious service i Really good wanted done (in a non conventional way), I could see where more traditional type folks prefer it to be done in the traditional way - in person.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
If you want to talk about responsibility and accountability why not start with Cuomo, Murphy , DeBlasio and a host of others ?
If people are wearing a mask and gloves, socially distancing etc., avoiding crowds etc., washing hands and sanitizing then how are they getting infected ? The answer is that for the most part they are not.
I could be wrong but think that’s the point he’s trying to make. Is that there is a subsection of people who don’t like/want to wear masks in public AND ignoring social distancing.
I almost punched two dudes for walking up behind me all in my damn personal space like they lost their everlasting minds. Thankfully I had a mask on.
Also there were tons of crowds all over the country this past weekend on Memorial Day.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
While it started DURING W.W. I , the Spanish Flu peaked in late 1918 and early 1919 , AFTER the war had ended.
The casualties from the Hong Kong Flu epidemic of 1968-9 totaled over a million people.Sweden has a larger population than Norway and (as you have written ) a state of the art health care system with very extensive and accurate reporting. But the Swedes have acknowledged that their numbers are probably OVER -inclusive. If you die of a heart attack and are Covid positive you are listed as dying from Covid. Same if you had a stroke or a fat embolism and are Covid positive.
How do you explain Florida ? Governor DeSantis took steps to protect the nursing homes ( Unlike Cuomo , Murphy , Pritzker and a number of other Blue State Governors ) and their death rate is relatively low.
Yes, yes, I know that California's death rate is low ( 3,700 ) and they totally shut down. New York has about 23,000 deaths with comparable numbers in N.J. , Illinois, and Pennsylvania. New York has 6% of the U.S. population but almost 25% of total deaths. Even allowing for the imbecilic requirement that Covid positive patients be put into nursing homes which btw , had a LOT of serious problems BEFORE this pandemic.
Sweden has twice as many people as Norway and approximately 18 times as many deaths. COVID-19 can cause heart attacks and strokes, even in young people. COIVID-19 can cause serious harm to people, even in cases where it doesn't kill them. The rapper Scarface caught the virus. He survived, but suffered kidney failure and is on dialysis.
https://www.billboard.com/articles/c...ilure-dialysis
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
If you want to talk about responsibility and accountability why not start with Cuomo, Murphy , DeBlasio and a host of others ?
I never said the above people don't bear any responsibility for what happened. NY and NJ should definitely have shut down sooner than they did. What's being discussed here is what we should be doing now, not who is responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
If people are wearing a mask and gloves, socially distancing etc., avoiding crowds etc., washing hands and sanitizing then how are they getting infected ? The answer is that for the most part they are not.
I don't have a problem opening businesses that could be operated safely, but for businesses where wearing a mask would not be possible or enforceable, such as bars, dine-in restaurants, or movies, I don't see how these businesses could operate safely.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
I could be wrong but think that’s the point he’s trying to make. Is that there is a subsection of people who don’t like/want to wear masks in public AND ignoring social distancing.
I almost punched two dudes for walking up behind me all in my damn personal space like they lost their everlasting minds. Thankfully I had a mask on.
Also there were tons of crowds all over the country this past weekend on Memorial Day.
Yes, that's my point.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
As far as baptisms, marriages, etc. I don’t have much to say on that except to say while I personally could get a religious service i Really good wanted done (in a non conventional way), I could see where more traditional type folks prefer it to be done in the traditional way - in person.
In some religions, including the Catholic faith, these things must be done in person. This is not a breezy preference issue. So when the churches are closed, these things are simply not done, period.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
There are a lot of rituals and sacraments that cannot be performed over an Internet connection, so this has indeed disrupted religious practices. Baptisms have been postponed; marriages have been rescheduled; confessions cannot occur; the Eucharist (extremely important to Catholics) cannot be received; first communions and confirmations were delayed; the Torah cannot be touched or carried; holy water cannot be obtained; religious education classes were modified and/or cancelled, etc., etc.
So this has indeed been a tremendous hardship upon religious communities and I agree with Eric wholeheartedly on the absurdity of the contradictions.
No religious ritual is worth dying for. Approximately 90% of Churches shut down. A small percentage, mostly in the Bible belt remained opened. Of those churches that remained open, over 30 pastors have died from the virus. People who go to church aren't just endangering their own lives, they're endangering the lives of others.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
and the Jewish Religion prohibits the practice of any rituals that endanger lives.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
I’m curious as to going out to eat at restaurants.... what do y’all do to protect yourself?
Do you go to restaurants less crowded? Eat outside? Or y’all still getting it togo?
I got another invite to dine in but I’m honestly questioning it.
Right now, it's probably best to avoid dining in at restaurants. If you're in a state where restaurants are allowed to open, I suggest waiting at least 6 - 8 weeks and looking at the trends in your state, to see if the number of cases and deaths are increasing or decreasing, and how many there are. Unfortunately, some states are making decisions based on politics rather than safety.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
I've never heard anyone say FL would have 100,000 deaths. You probably made that up. By practically every measurement, Sweden is better off than the US, in terms of being negatively affected by COVID-19. They have a lower poverty rate, more physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 people, a much lower obesity rate, and is less densely populated than major American cities. If the US followed the same policies as Sweden, you would expect us to have a much higher death rate, not lower.
Florida is much less densely populated than NYC. I don't know of anyone who predicted 100,000 deaths there.
No, the lockdowns are based on sound science, The policies you advocate have already failed. Sweden now has over 4,200 deaths, including 95 this past day, while neighboring Norway has 235, yet you insist we should be following Sweden's model, and not Norway's. That would only result in more deaths than we're having already.
Approximately 1/3 of deaths occurred in nursing homes, which is very high, but even if we exclude all nursing home deaths, the US would have had approximately 70,000 deaths from the virus, which is still extremely high.
No, each person should not decide when the right time is for him/her because they're not just harming themselves if they catch the virus, they're endangering the lives of others. Doctors, nurses, and grocery store workers shouldn't have their lives endangered by people who refuse to act responsibly. Too many of them have died already.
So more people died from a contagious virus because they weren't forced to lock down. What a stunner. ;)
The problem is your metric of success vs. failure. It only measures one statistic while ignoring everything else. What we should be asking ourselves is: How much poverty and economic carnage did Sweden avoid for years to come and how many lives will that save alone? How many less suicides and ODs will they experience? What is the value of the lost education and growth activities for millions of children who would have never gotten that time back? How many people didn't die because they were able to keep getting cancer screenings, heart checks and other necessary medical support?
I suspect that, when all is tallied up a year or longer from now, people are going to look back and wonder if the cure did more harm than the disease. The Swedes seemed to take that view and thus far they are happy with the results.
And your numbers on nursing home deaths are bad. That percentage would be a lot higher if NY wasn't fudging the numbers by excluding old people transferred from nursing homes to hospitals to die. Google it. While you're at it, Google Florida death estimates April 2020 and you'll find those too, though I'm guessing that some of the more shameful news sources have yanked those stories offline after being embarrassed.
So yes, protect the nursing homes and provide additional resources to high risk groups and let everyone else make their own decisions. We already do it every day in endless other situations where harm to ourselves and potentially others is involved. We can't stay bunkered forever.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
No religious ritual is worth dying for. Approximately 90% of Churches shut down. A small percentage, mostly in the Bible belt remained opened. Of those churches that remained open, over 30 pastors have died from the virus. People who go to church aren't just endangering their own lives, they're endangering the lives of others.
You don't have the right to make that decision and neither does the government. More state governments should consider themselves lucky that churches didn't decide to sue them for Constitutional infringements. Florida didn't even try to suppress churches because DeSantis recognized his Constitutional limits, though most in FL chose to close anyway. With respect to those small churches in the bible belt, everyone who took those risks were grown adults who knew the risks but went anyway.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
In some religions, including the Catholic faith, these things must be done in person. This is not a breezy preference issue. So when the churches are closed, these things are simply not done, period.
I used to practice Catholicism as a child because my family was raised catholic
I enjoyed it but......
And one of the grossest things they did was communion where everyone would go up and drink out the same cup (insert gag me emoji). Idk if they still do that but I cringe at the germ levels.
Anyhow now I’m curious about this topic so ask my friends who practice Catholicism. I just wonder if some things are being done where the church leaders could safely go to peoples homes/backyards vs having the people pack into a crowded building.
My point is people are getting creative about safely doing important events in person.
I’ve seen one school doing a drive through graduation when other schools cancelled graduation
I’ve seen judges pull out folding tables in court parking lots to keep court proceedings going
Etc.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
You don't have the right to make that decision and neither does the government. More state governments should consider themselves lucky that churches didn't decide to sue them for Constitutional infringements. Florida didn't even try to suppress churches because DeSantis recognized his Constitutional limits, though most in FL chose to close anyway. With respect to those small churches in the bible belt, everyone who took those risks were grown adults who knew the risks but went anyway.
The Supreme Court has ruled religious beliefs or rituals are not exempt from the law. Congress then passed a law that they are exempt, except in cases where they're harmful. There's no question that holding in-person religious services during an epidemic is harmful.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Be careful out here.
Sadly he’s not the only pastor that has contracted coronavirus but unfortunately he succumbed to the virus
https://youtu.be/VWcajDiGAq0
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Very sad. Over 30 pastors in the Bible belt have died from coronavirus.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...ng-guidelines/
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Stoner
How do you explain Florida ? Governor DeSantis took steps to protect the nursing homes ( Unlike Cuomo , Murphy , Pritzker and a number of other Blue State Governors ) and their death rate is relatively low.
Florida has been under-reporting COVID-19 deaths.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ths-in-Florida
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
Oh my goodness NO! Why aren't CNN, CNBC and the other marginally more reputable national media outlets all over this??? This conspiracy has to be exposed immediately.
Oh wait, that's because these conspiracy theories have been largely debunked. Local network news outlets have actually done a reconciliation between the 25 local ME offices' records and the statewide numbers and only found a marginal difference in reported cases. It also came out that the fired purported "data scientist" was a data input analyst with degrees in Journalism and Communications and had some mental issues that previously put her in criminal proceedings.
Eagle, you really need to find better sources than Kronos and Puffpost, lol. <3.3 GPA journalism majors from C schools are not usually reliable sources of data analysis. Just sayin'. ;)
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
Be careful out here.
Sadly he’s not the only pastor that has contracted coronavirus but unfortunately he succumbed to the virus
https://youtu.be/VWcajDiGAq0
I said I wished people who were blasting social distancing would get sick, but no it’s just sad they were brainwashed and it cost them their lives.
A friend of a friend was diagnosed with Covid-19. My friend tried to mom and told her wear a mask, but no one she was close to was taking seriously so she thought it was like a regular cold. She’s only a young lady, she didn’t really know better to question authority. She’s been in and out of the hospital with Covid and she’s only 24.
Wear your mask ladies and don’t let anyone brainwash you.
We really have to think critically and trust ourselves now more than ever.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
Right now, it's probably best to avoid dining in at restaurants. If you're in a state where restaurants are allowed to open, I suggest waiting at least 6 - 8 weeks and looking at the trends in your state, to see if the number of cases and deaths are increasing or decreasing, and how many there are. Unfortunately, some states are making decisions based on politics rather than safety.
6 to 8 WEEKS ???? On top of what they have already experienced ? Are you serious ? Just how much longer do you think they can hang on ? They were dealing with VERY tight profit margins BEFORE Covid.
Afaic it is ALL politics. States that have reopened are NOT experiencing the dramatic rise in cases that was predicted by the bureaucrats and technocrats.
If you are afraid to go to a bar or a restaurant then stay home. What about people willing to take the very small risk. And if it is outdoors it is almost zero.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickdugan
You don't have the right to make that decision and neither does the government. More state governments should consider themselves lucky that churches didn't decide to sue them for Constitutional infringements. Florida didn't even try to suppress churches because DeSantis recognized his Constitutional limits, though most in FL chose to close anyway. With respect to those small churches in the bible belt, everyone who took those risks were grown adults who knew the risks but went anyway.
There is a VERY strong First Amendment argument for churches to reopen. Most have closed voluntarily and most that have reopened have done so with distancing and other adjustments to minimize the risks of infection.
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Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eagle2
The Supreme Court has ruled religious beliefs or rituals are not exempt from the law. Congress then passed a law that they are exempt, except in cases where they're harmful. There's no question that holding in-person religious services during an epidemic is harmful.
Oh yes there is. Services without adjustments and elementary are potentially risky. Those with parishioners wearing masks and gloves and at Communion taking the host from the priest's gloved hands into their gloved hands has ZERO risk.
I am sorry but Covid is NOT cholera , typhoid , a norovirus or the flu. Yes it is highly contagious and potentially deadly IF you are old , already sick or have a weakened immune system. There are tests and effective treatments. Btw, I have spoken to a lot of treating doctors over the last two months. They ALL prescribe hydroxychloroquine , zinc and azithromycin to Covid patients with mild to moderate cases. They all say the regimen is effective and safe. The misinformation floating around thanks to doctors who do not treat and their media handmaidens has gotten out of control . ALL of the studies saying different are DEEPLY flawed.
The chances of catching Covid OUTDOORS are almost zero. Wearing a mask except when actually eating and drinking while spacing limits the risk to almost zero.Yet too much of the country is still shut down. For how much longer ? At what cost ? We are already looking at permanent damage that will take years to repair and undo.
Parts of NYC have already met all seven of Cuomo's metrics for reopening ( Staten Island ; parts of Manhattan , Brooklyn and Queens but sadly not the Bronx ).Cuomo says it is all or none. WHY ? Neither he nor the Village Idiot Mayor have ever worked a day in the private sector. They obviously think that Federal helicopters will be flying over NYC raining money. And most of the rest of the country justifiably asks : We should pay for that , why ?