Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
I am going to bring up a topic because I find it interesting, and I am NOT trying to piss anyone off so if it starts to turn ugly I'm dropping it. I figure we are all adults here and can talk about something a tad controversial without blowing our collective cool over it. 8)
So, having said that, what is the general consensus around these parts regarding the notion that "dating outside the club" was, for many, sugar dating before they called it that?
When I "dated" dancers on the regular the "relationships" I found there were two kinds of thinking by the dancers I saw about this kind of "dating".
One group saw it as precisely what it was, friendly business but business. They conducted it as such. They were pretty upfront about what they expected and not at all pretentious about the nature of what was going on. It was what it was and while not as cut and dry as seeing an actual escort had much of the same "look and feel", including the aspect of their seeing me as a "client" of their services.
The other group bore all the same aspects of sugar dating of today, when actually dating a real "sugar baby". They refused to seem themselves as escorts. They were dancers who had friends they saw outside the club, because they were friends. They had sex with these friends. These friends helped them pay bills and "stuff", but the money was because they were "friends" not because they were having sex. Because of this though they couldn't very well see me as a client, because if I am "client" they weren't 'seeing a friend", they were escorts seeing a client.
This was, of course, the magical thinking that was predominant when the term "sugar baby" and "sugar dating" came into being. "Real" sugar babies were defined by their refusal to acknowledge this was a 'sex in exchange for capital' thinking. They practice 'delusional thinking' to separate themselves from what was actually taking place, as far as I saw it. To be candid I had no notion of challenging that way of perceiving what was going on, because it benefited me not to be viewed as a 'client".
Now we've all been around long enough that we know all sorts of folks in this biz who exchange money for sex and sex for money. All the way from one edge of it, dancers who are escorts using the clubs to screen clients they see outside the club though the LDs and CCs to weed out the crazies, to the Ladies who insist they aren't escorting when they see men outside the club who just do them "favors" but they happen to have sex with, and all points in between. We also all know guys who see both kinds of dancers outside of the clubs.
So, since we all live in our glass houses and to the "straight laced" folk who think we are all going to hell we are all equally bad, without being judgey can we manage a discussion about what we think about this...
Questions: While it would probably be ideal to keep cathouses as cathouses and strip-clubs as strip-clubs that isn't what our world has become. Many clubs merge the two to some degree, if not on site then off. So, how does everyone deal in such an environment so we all don't get in each others way and everyone gets some of what they want without too badly offending anyone else?
What do you think about the nature of what I have labeled "delusional thinking" in denial of admission that accepting money for sex is escorting? Is it safe for women and/or men to partake in such thinking to keep themselves from dealing with concepts they don't want to deal with, or to maintain situations they find easier to cope with or get better results as far as having the type of "relationships" they want with less mental anguish?
if not, how would you change it so it could...if you would change it?
What do you think about strip-clubs being the origins of 'sugar dating' before the websites showed up?
Does 'sugar dating' occur less out of the clubs now that these sites exist?
With SESTA-FOSTA killing off the PMB sites where "webcorts" use to get most of their business, driving that traffic over to the "sugar" sites like "seeking", what do the dancers that are on those sites think about all those escorts showing up on what they might feel is their terrain?
Feel free to post your own questions to the topic if you have any to add to the discussion.
I just thought this might be interesting to discuss. I hope it jostles synapses and not hotspots.
wishing well...
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Quick note to the mod:
While this is about other work, I just realized it might be better suited to "Industry Insight' forum.
I leave it up to you whether to move it or leave it here.
Thank you.
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
You should already know controversial topics can’t be handled here. Lol!
I’m kidding ... sort of.
Anyways I don’t have much to add since I always “clocked out” so to speak after work so no extracurriculars for me (not knocking anyone who does though).
If I were in the position I wouldn’t see sugaring as sex for money because sugar babies spend more time with the guys so it’s less “transactional” although i think ANY relationship where you wouldn’t be around the guy if he weren’t funding your lifestyle is in a sense transactional so in theory all women (except women who are head of households working vanilla jobs) are “escorting“ to some degree.
The rise of online apps for ONS has created a “microwave” culture who seeks to get their immediate needs met so these types of “sugar babies” are behaving more like escorts who don’t realize they’re interacting in a more quick transaction type nature.
But yeah there seems to be a lot of gray area and blurred lines when it comes to defining these areas of work.
What you describe as delusional thinking is in fact related to a concept called cognitive dissonance. A person feels negative emotions about some act they’re doing so they have two choices to relieve the negative emotions/feelings 1. Is to change the way they think about the act (“oh it’s not that bad I’m meeting John on the weekends because we go out and spend a lot of time together” or “he’s not a client he’s my sugar daddy” etc) or 2. Stop doing the actions that cause them emotional discomfort
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Without veering into argument territory- I think the idea is, a SD/sb arrangement has a sort of emotional component to it, and anything else does not.
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnuffleUffleGrass
Without veering into argument territory- I think the idea is, a SD/sb arrangement has a sort of emotional component to it, and anything else does not.
Absolutely. That's what keeps me from getting into it personally. Even if the emotions were only one sided (with him being attached) it just seems so messy. I stick to camming and clips and am pretty happy with that. Sugaring seems like so much work.
I do admire those who make it work for them and keep both the sugarbaby and daddy happy, seems like a really delicate balance.
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miss.a.p1600
You should already know controversial topics can’t be handled here. Lol!
I’m kidding ... sort of.
Anyways I don’t have much to add since I always “clocked out” so to speak after work so no extracurriculars for me (not knocking anyone who does though).
If I were in the position I wouldn’t see sugaring as sex for money because sugar babies spend more time with the guys so it’s less “transactional” although i think ANY relationship where you wouldn’t be around the guy if he weren’t funding your lifestyle is in a sense transactional so in theory all women (except women who are head of households working vanilla jobs) are “escorting“ to some degree.
The rise of online apps for ONS has created a “microwave” culture who seeks to get their immediate needs met so these types of “sugar babies” are behaving more like escorts who don’t realize they’re interacting in a more quick transaction type nature.
But yeah there seems to be a lot of gray area and blurred lines when it comes to defining these areas of work.
What you describe as delusional thinking is in fact related to a concept called cognitive dissonance. A person feels negative emotions about some act they’re doing so they have two choices to relieve the negative emotions/feelings 1. Is to change the way they think about the act (“oh it’s not that bad I’m meeting John on the weekends because we go out and spend a lot of time together” or “he’s not a client he’s my sugar daddy” etc) or 2. Stop doing the actions that cause them emotional discomfort
Yes, fully aware of the concept of "cognitive dissonance".
Now CD is generally used to define a negative emotional state that usually has a cascading, building, pattern that ends in either some form of catharsis or in mental breakdown. Do you think that, in these cases, that is always how it ends, or can it work out differently?
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnuffleUffleGrass
Without veering into argument territory- I think the idea is, a SD/sb arrangement has a sort of emotional component to it, and anything else does not.
I can argue that two ways, and both would have merit.
The emotional aspect is real. Therefore it is different in a real way.
The emotional aspect is an outward manifestation of the dissonance M.A.6100 is describing and lends credence to the illusion one or both may be fooling themselves with but isn't actually real at all.
Some combination of both?
Which do you think it is in the majority of the cases?
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
I was a sugar baby for years, and had 2 sugar daddies, both of whom I met at the clubs I worked at. I actually wrote an ebook about how to be a sugar baby which I published on Amazon in March. Here is how I would answer your questions:
-The way I was able to do it without offending or getting in any one's way was to be really secretive about it. And to be extremely selective with who I chose to see...I would not go after any man who was someone else's customer, or who was a good regular of the club. Both of my SD's were just occasional club patrons, they weren't really regulars of the club, or of any of the dancers. They came to the club with the intention of finding a sugar baby (me), so its not like I stole them away from the club, or from anyone. And no one knew about it.
-I don't think it is delusional thinking to NOT think that all money for sex is considered escorting...because sugar dating has a different dynamic then escorting. Its more of a relationship than a transaction. Yes the whole relationship is needs based and transactional, but your sugar daddy is not giving you money just for sex. Its more personal than that...he actually wants to take care of you, invest in you, and help you become successful and secure. Escorting is more cut and dried and transactional.
-Strip clubs have always and will always be a source for sugar daddies, escorting clients, etc. Even if its not supposed to be that way, its just the nature of the environment. There will always be men who go to clubs looking for sugar babies and escorts, and there will always be women who are willing to provide those services. It is what it is. Now its more difficult because a lot of clubs are being closed and the pandemic has made things more difficult for everyone. As for everyone flocking to sugar daddy websites because of SESTA/FOSTA...I feel like all women from all types of sex work have tried those sites at least once. Strippers and escorts alike. It is for everyone, no one owns it or can claim it as being their territory. People are going to use it however they want, theres nothing that can be done about it. I tried one of those sites and hated it, it was a huge disappointment and waste of time
*I hope all of my answers helped! Just my opinions by the way :)
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EastCoastDancer01
I was a sugar baby for years, and had 2 sugar daddies, both of whom I met at the clubs I worked at. I actually wrote an ebook about how to be a sugar baby which I published on Amazon in March. Here is how I would answer your questions:
-The way I was able to do it without offending or getting in any one's way was to be really secretive about it. And to be extremely selective with who I chose to see...I would not go after any man who was someone else's customer, or who was a good regular of the club. Both of my SD's were just occasional club patrons, they weren't really regulars of the club, or of any of the dancers. They came to the club with the intention of finding a sugar baby (me), so its not like I stole them away from the club, or from anyone. And no one knew about it.
-I don't think it is delusional thinking to NOT think that all money for sex is considered escorting...because sugar dating has a different dynamic then escorting. Its more of a relationship than a transaction. Yes the whole relationship is needs based and transactional, but your sugar daddy is not giving you money just for sex. Its more personal than that...he actually wants to take care of you, invest in you, and help you become successful and secure. Escorting is more cut and dried and transactional.
-Strip clubs have always and will always be a source for sugar daddies, escorting clients, etc. Even if its not supposed to be that way, its just the nature of the environment. There will always be men who go to clubs looking for sugar babies and escorts, and there will always be women who are willing to provide those services. It is what it is. Now its more difficult because a lot of clubs are being closed and the pandemic has made things more difficult for everyone. As for everyone flocking to sugar daddy websites because of SESTA/FOSTA...I feel like all women from all types of sex work have tried those sites at least once. Strippers and escorts alike. It is for everyone, no one owns it or can claim it as being their territory. People are going to use it however they want, theres nothing that can be done about it. I tried one of those sites and hated it, it was a huge disappointment and waste of time
*I hope all of my answers helped! Just my opinions by the way :)
Most of what is discussed about these "relationships" is opinion as it hasn't been very well studied in social science circles. Though it ought to be, as there is a lot going on worthy of study, and it is a legitimate social phenomenon that is impacting relationships between the sexes to at least a noticeable degree.
I have a strong inkling to how you feel on the subject, and thank you for responding, but what would you answer to this:
Quote:
-I don't think it is delusional thinking to NOT think that all money for sex is considered escorting...because sugar dating has a different dynamic then escorting. Its more of a relationship than a transaction. Yes the whole relationship is needs based and transactional, but your sugar daddy is not giving you money just for sex. Its more personal than that...he actually wants to take care of you, invest in you, and help you become successful and secure. Escorting is more cut and dried and transactional.
Can you still say that is the case when, if you take sex out of the equation, all the other bits of business you mention goes away. Yes, it may very well be more personal and he wants to take care of you [I find that may be overstating it to some extent], etc, but if you do not provide him sex does this all remain or does he find a reason to suddenly be somewhere else with someone else? And if that is the case, was it ever real?
To be candid I have remained friendly with the SB's I have been involved with and maintain email contact with the majority of them even now. Keeping up with each others lives. However those relationship always ended organically. Job opportunities, more substantial relationships with men their own age, changing graduate and postgraduate universities placement, etc. It wasn't ever the sex stopped but there was still proximity, sort of thing. Even when it was simply, "it was time to move on" an opportunity presented itself for a natural segway that kept things light and easy. On a couple of the occasions I was introduced to a replacement candidate by the woman moving on, and she was given a recommend to her on my behalf as being the type of fellow she'd like to know. This without me asking... in fact, I found it, while complimentary, rather extraordinary when it occurred, and when it happened more than once I found myself at a loss to be able to explain it?
Anyway, I'm diverging from the point... sorry: Is it really more than enhanced escorting, despite what you suggest to the contrary, if you take sex out of the picture and everything else you mention comes to a screeching halt?
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
+ 1 to all East Coast mentioned !
These can be SUCH frustrating things to negotiate without some clear " lines " and they grey area involved.
I think you kind of have to embrace that ( on both sides ) if this is something you want to do.
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
To weigh in; having been involved repeatedly in all these types of relationships, as, if we're being honest, most blues have, it is my firm opinion that sugar babies are NOT escorts. Long term SD/SB relationships often take on some of the aspects of friendships, though both parties are wise to remember the base of the relationship is money. A sugar baby simply gives the SD an advantage because of the imbalance of wealth. Many relationship partners do this: I challenge anyone to realistically argue that wealth reduces one's available pool of partners. Sugar relationships are more transactional by choice, or sometimes, tragically, by necessity, but I've met lots of people that get into vanilla relationships because they need something other than love.
From long debate on here we've established that roughly 10% of sugar relationships are actually non-sexual. Those are very hard to get and to maintain, but they do happen. I've seen many a marriage that is cold and acrimonious. My point is, none of these human interactions can be pigeonholed or narrowly defined.
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
Just mho but there was a time when Sugar Babies were known as mistresses. Long term , exclusive or semi-exclusive relationships that filled needs on both sides. Most mistresses then ( and now , I guess ) would be seriously offended to be known as or equated with prostitutes.
As for dancers , aside from occasional take-out I had three long term , serious relationships. One is still a close friend with whom I stay in touch. The other two have moved on and have no interest in even maintaining a friendship. In all three money was a part of the relationship but not on a session or hourly or daily basis. I was actually engaged to one. It was more a question of going places together ; going to the beach ; going on vacation and then other things like helping out with an expensive car repair ; buying a dress for a formal affair to go to together ( I had a hell of a time finding shoes to match my bag LOL . Just kidding. I look lousy in floor length anyway.) Time and events proved ( at least to my satisfaction ) that it was not my wallet driving the relationship ; that the ladies genuinely liked me and enjoyed my company. In and out of the bedroom . Niot that I ever really added it up or kept score but I was certainly satisfied with what I was getting out of these relationships. I never felt cheated or shortchanged.
At present I have not ventured into the SB/SD world. Not knocking it but it just seems so mercenary i.e. transactional ; clearly quid pro quo. Not passing judgement in the slightest. I am a confirmed libertarian and not judging at all. Partly , the average SB seems to be rather young and unrealistic. Just my impression.
Submitted for whatever it's worth.
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
^^That makes sense - I don't think the websites realistically reflect the whole state of affairs (literally!) but I've heard bad things in the last three or four years
Re: Lets get a little real about sugar dating...
I'm watching Hustlers the movie and reflecting on the old days. I've been on a lot of sugar dates most of which never left the restaurant and only had 1 sugar relationship (which I look back on fondly) and honestly I've been scammed / bribed into a transaction 3 or 4 times
In short everything has changed everywhere from stripping to sugar dating to escorting. In my opinion none of the above are worth the time any more. ESPECIALLY the websites just a bunch of cheap tricks. I do also agree that sugar dating is dating just without the emotional aspect.