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At my club, the most beautiful and graceful dancers are all African American and I can only stand back and admire what those girls do with their amazing bodies.
This brings me to an unpleasant story: I was taking a cab home one night during a slow time our club was going through and was asking the cab driver about how the clubs in town were doing in general. He says to me that I will never make money at my club because it it "too black"!!!!! I really had to ask him where he got that one since there are only four African American girls there total out of the whole group of girls, and he tells me that that is enough to "ruin" the club, etc. etc. I have to say, I had quite the screaming fit at that driver and I would never ride with him again. Talk about ignorant and bigotted!! It makes me especially happy after that ride to see my beautiful co-workers making bank night after night.
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Here is an example of overt discrimination I am facing right now in trying to get a club booking at Moulin Rouge in Missoula MT.
They only book dancers through an agent D-Lux entertainment in Washington State. Typically to get bookings in Montana, the dakotas an other midwest areas you e-mail or send a picture and then call the club back and book an available week over the phone.
I called the guy back before thanksgiving and he said his partner had my picture an they would call me in 2 days. Then I called in 4 days as I had not heard from them and the guy put me through the 3rd degree. he said i looked fat in the picture. I wear a size 7-8. I don't look fat. Then he wanted to know how long my legs were, my bust and hip size and asked me how well I could perform on stage as they liked their girls to put on a show and the girls that didn't couldn't go on stage.
He is full of shit. Rochelle on this board recommended this club and I have booked other clubs in thearea with no problem. They are usually happy to have women of color since Montana is 99.5% white. I am sure Rochelle did not go through this to get bookings and those bastards are going to get hell from me and yes I am going to threaten them with being bigots!
If I owned a club and had all white dancers I would make damn sure I brought in other race girls who were a size 9-10 or under who looked nice as often as posible. i woul not want to be accused of being prejudiced.
This crap is just why there are ghettos in this country. People of color are not given equal opportunities and in theend when you hold people back the entire economy suffers.
The customers for themost part in that area respond well to women of color as there are black males in Montana but few black women.
It's the damn people running the clubs who need to be given attitude adjustments.
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Thanks to all posters for giving us a candid and honest talk on a difficult topic. As a child of the segregated South who will be 57 next month, I thought some of these attitudes would be dead by now. How dumb of me. Ken Burns, who did the excellent documentary for PBS on baseball, said in an interview that he started to tell the story of racial history in America and found that the best way to tell it was through a history of baseball, a major form of entertainment that was rigidly segregated for a long time. ( Look at Hollywood and don't tell me that the twin Oscars to Halle Berry and Denzel Washington solved the problem of racism in the motion picture industry. People hire friends and family and blacks are neither.) Strip club managers have fears that they cannot speak to other than saying, "This is a business."
Here's my uneducated guess as to what the club manager is thinking: The vast majority of customers are white men. When white men get a few drinks, they can get loose and crude about issues of race. Most guys are cool, but not all. Some drunks openly resent seeing a black guy get a lap dance from a stunning blonde. Managers know that they have to keep the club white to keep the money coming in and keep the crowd cool. After all, people are drinking a lot and someone might say something out of line and who knows what will happen with a bunch of guys drinking and some racial incident breaks out.
Too many black dancers will draw too many black men, which will scare off the white guys with the big money. White people generally avoid going any place where black men might gather. So a strip club that starts attracting groups of black men to see black dancers will start losing money, because white men will go elsewhere. And groups of black men getting dances from white dancers just might make some--not all--white patrons uncomfortable. So, just don't hire black dancers and keep the number of black customers to a minimum.
If you find this difficult to accept, look at housing, hiring, education and mortgage lending practices. Why should strip clubs be immune from the clear patterns of the rest of the businesses in society? In downtown Detroit there are two very popular after work watering holes--one is always full of black professionals, only, and the other one, three blocks away, is always full of whites only. We've got a long way to go.
Don't go to the NAACP because most of their money comes from the black churches who are actively fighting strip clubs in major cities.
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oh, now that is just SICK! Aggieed, you and any other offended customers really need to get into the face of the owner/manager and make some noisy complaints... not patronizing the club chain without letting them know you're offended doesn't help the ethnic dancers and doesn't give those clubs any incentive to change their evil ways.
i'm a white dancer, but i've seen the racism that goes on in clubs. i've found it disturbing even when it's very subtle, but this outrageous open bigotry is just beyond offensive. >:(
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Aggieed. You are right. I was once at a club that was majority was white. I could dance to any kind of music (I dont know about country) but some customer that were interest to me were black and they wasnt not feeling the music I think it was techno. But they left which cost me some money.
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The sad fact is that no matter how hard some of us might want to try, there are always going to be people out there that want to denigrate others be it height, weight, race, skin color, religion, or occupation. When discrimination appears it is up to each one of us to take the next step to ensure that it does not continue.
As a white business owner I can only tell you that race is an issue that I will not touch without four attorneys and a videotographer in the room and Jessie Jackson answering the questions for me.
The behavior that the door men and the club managers have displayed is shocking to me and I am really surprised that you are putting up with it as you have so many avenues open to you to stop this kind of thing.
Even if it is not what you say it is there are multiple agencies and groups that can make it so expensive for these clubs that they will shut down.
I know all too well just how easy you can sue them as at least three to four times a year I am sued for wrongful discharge, sexual harassment, and discrimination by ethnic employees and they are usually women. The ironic part is that we always win as I have never hired a single employee and I am never involved in the management of the restaurants and until I am summoned to the deposition I do not even know what the woman look like until we meet for the first time. We have a very strict policy that any employee that engages in any form of discrimination be it against the customer or another employee is suspended pending termination right there on the first offense.
I would not let the fact that these are dance clubs dissuade you from going after them as once one or two are put out of business the rest will start to take notice very quickly as discrimination has no place in business here in America.
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Afer gettng te third degree and being persistent the booking agent of Moulin Rouge in Missoula MT finally gave me a booking.
It takes a lot of persistence to make it in the door of a lot of clubs . Once I get into a place for a few days usually everyone treats me fine and I have heard this line a million times "you don't seem black".
This is a battle that we as ethnic women will continue to have to fight and not jut settle for the bottom rung clubs because they will hire almost
anyone.
Don't give up guys. Be persistent in attempting to get in the clubs of your choice and don't be afraid to pull your race card out if you are given the run around and you see virtually no women of color dancing in the club.
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Maybe Trent Lott should have taken Strom Thurmond to a "no problem" club for his birthday.
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Hello,
I'm new to this board and I'm happy to have found it. I'm a former dancer who has been out of the business for quite some time now. I spent some time reading many of the threads here and saw this one and just had to jump in.
*sigh* I see that racism is STILL a big factor in the business and reading this thread brought up some not so pleasant memories.
I will say, however, that the bulk of this BS is happens here in the US. When I left the country to work elsewhere, it was MUCH less a concern. I definitely found that when I worked outside of the continental US, my money increased like nobody's business. True, there were instances where I would encounter racism, but it was so rare that I was able to blow it off a lot easier.
Trust me, try going over the border. It really did help.
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:DDX7 Welcome
You must clue me in! Where did you dance outside of the US? I was always hesitant on traveling because I didn't want to get the run around the way I do here in CA. I also tried Vegas and couldnt get hired. The bad experiences Ive had made me not even think about traveling!
What places like black women!! cause CA and Vegas are shady. I too have called clubs to inquire about their hiring only to be told that they werent hiring when I actually went to the door and they saw my black face. :-/Believe me I am a 10. I have a track star body natural 34D chest killer thighs and was just accepted by a modeling agency ;D :D 8) ;D, but cant afford the comp card so I need some cash!! Please give me the low down on how I would find gigs outside of the US.
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Clarice:
Thanks for the welcome.
In my experience, heading north of the border is the best way to go. Sure, I'd wait til this SARS things dies down a bit up there, but once it does, it'll definitley be worth it to go up there and work.
The clubs are classier, there's less judgement from the populace, the money is better, the guys are nicer, you name it. You can go through an agency that will book you. Going that route, you don't even have to pay the agency, the club pays!
Also, you can freelance if you want to. That's when you just bounce from club to club til you find a place that suits you. Most club owners were open to freelancers because it's a way for them to constantly get new girls. It works out for you because you're not obligated to stay if things don't work out. Also, they don't have all these assinine payouts to the house. You may pay the DJ, but that was about it. Plus, at some clubs you get a paycheck.
Like here in the states, I made most of my money off of white men and others. The black men up there are supportive though, and you won't have to deal with that "ism" that's so prevalent among the brothers here in the states. Something about the absence of opression does that to a man. ;) The white (Canadian), German, and French men LOVE black women. Trust me on that.
Stage wise, be prepared to step up your routine a bit more. The girls up there are quite polished in the way they move on stage. It's more about the strut and the stage presence. Even the house girls have that about them. In all honestly, I can barely remember any girl up there doing the "dance-stop-bend over" deal. Part of that has to do with the fact that there is no tipping at the stage. That's just not the way things are done up there. You make money by way of table dances (and lap dances if they have that up there now).
So, by all means, don't be afraid to leave the US for work.
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Thanks for the advice
But where north of the border? Canada?, Alaska?, have you actually gone to europe too? sounds a bit intimidating! but $ here is rediculous so, Ill try it. What agency would you suggest? or how do I locate a dancing agency?
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While I agree with everything posted in this thread in principle, one undeniable fact is consistently being overlooked - the fact that percentage of local population does not equate with percentage of customer club spending ...
The original post about a city with 30% hispanics, 10% blacks and 5% asians ( = 55% white) would indicate that 45% of the population was ethnic. But somewhere somehow an assumption crept in the equation that this relates directly to dance club customer spending habits and therefore to the earnings potential of ethnic dancers.
If you rework that same city on the basis of % of population PLUS club spending habits you wind up with a different picture - say a club has 100 customers based on the above population percentages
30 hispanics * $40 average spending = $1200
10 blacks * $60 average spending = $ 600
5 asians * $ 400 average spending = $2000
55 whites * $ 250 average spending = $ 13,750
hispanics 1200/17550 = 6.8% of spending
blacks 600/17550 = 3.4% of spending
asians 2000/17550 = 11.4% of spending
whites 13750/17550 = 78.4% of spending
based on the spending percentages, for a 50 dancer club this would equate to 3-4 hispanic dancers, 2 black dancers, 6 asian dancers and 39 white dancers. Please understand I'm not advocating that this basis should be followed for dancer selection !!! But I am saying that clubowners often do assume that customers of different ethnicity tend to spend differerent amounts of money and also have different preferences in regard to the ethnicity of dancers they prefer to spend money on.
The SCORES system takes these sort of decisions out of the clubowner's hands and leaves them with the club customers. SCORES will hire dancers of any ethnicity as long as they meet certain basic requirements in regard to appearance, social skills, dancing skills etc. After a "training period" SCORES dancers are then all charged $200+ per shift as a stage fee and get an equal opportunity shot at earning money from the club's customers. Girls that do consistently earn enough money to cover the high stage fee stick around, but girls that cannot earn enough to cover the high stage fee quickly leave to avoid losing money. The ethnic breakdown of dancers in SCORES is therefore totally determined by the spending preferences of the customers and not determined in any way by the hiring and firing decisions of club management! And it just so happens that the percentage of black SCORES dancers is well below the black percentage of population in New York City.
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SCAM. This is what gives lawyers a bad name.
Civil suits don't need the cash upfront in almost every case and with every reputable attorney. If he thinks, truly believes as claimed, that there is a civil rights case here then he would do it for a percentage at the end, less expenses off the top.
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(You must clue me in! Where did you dance outside of the US? I was always hesitant on traveling because I didn't want to get the run around the way I do here in CA)
Hey Clarice,
Where have you tried to work in CA? Are you in the North or South? I have been a CA dancer off and on for almost nine years. I have sort of an ethnic look, I am European Spanish/Irish/American. Right now I work in So. Cal. I have been to a few clubs, although I have worked in only two down here. I don't know what your ethnic background is, but there are a lot of clubs that hire a variety of different types. I have some info. on Northern CA clubs as well, if you are located up there.
You can in-box me or email me at [email protected] for more info.
Cheers,
Corey
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Clarice:
Yes, Canada. I've never worked in Europe or Alaska, but I've heard really good things about Alaska. Ditto for Guam.
What I'd do is save a little money and take a vacation to Toronto. Spend some time checking out some of the places. Talk to the girls. They're really down to earth up there.
When I first started up there, you didn't need a license. After a while though, you did have to get one. It's a good investment.
Also, I once had to get a letter from an employer stating that yes they did want to hire me, then go back over the border to the US and come into Canada again. It's a small technicality, but if you take care of it up front, you won't have to worry about being shut out of a club when you're in the middle of making money. That happened to me at Runway 66 and I was not happy. LOL! Someone heard my accent and the manager came and talked to me.
Agencies: When you go up there to visit, ask the girls. They'll give you the lowdown. These are NOT escort services! They are agencies that the clubs pay to book dancers. The clubs see it as a worthwhile investment to deal with them because they can get quality dancers and not have to deal with just any old girl off the street.
Like I said, I've been of the biz for a long, long, while now, but here are some of the names of clubs that I remember off the top of my head. All money makers.
Chez Paris
Brass Rail
Latin Quarter
Runway 66
Cannon Ball (I think that was the name).
I've been other places too, but I don't want to put too much info on the web. If you have an email addy, I can hit you up there.
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The only thing I have to say to Melonie's comment is that granted the white men will spend more as that is the case on any good in this country as there are more whites here than other races and they control most of the wealth.
But what we as dancers are saying is that WHITE men buy 90% of the dances from women of color. White men like women other than their race and that is what your survey doesn't consider.
it's not about each race of customer buying dances from their own race. We live in a society where racial mixing is more common now.
So when you say that a club only needs 2 black girls and 6 asian and 39 whites, that white figure needs to be dropped by about 10 girls.
White men like women of color. And men like older dancers too, not just all college aged girls. And every black girl is not the same. there are many with attitudes and many customers tell me I have a pleasant attitude. We are all different. You can't clump all people of a race together. put me in Scores and I bet I can do well, but I've past my time for working in a club like that.
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Tina, if you check my post I specifically said that I think dancer descrimination is wrong and I was not advocating that any club should use the spending factor, all I was saying is that SOME clubowners do take such factors into consideration. Obviously, white customers buy dances from black dancers, the same as black customers buy dances from white dancers. My only point was this - based on financial and racial breakdown in some cities, I do agree that it is unreasonable to assume that a club should hire 40% black/hispanic dancers just because 40% of the city's general population is black/hispanic ! The population data does not necessarily correlate to club customers, and correlates even less when clubowners factor in that black/hispanic customers do not spend at equal levels as white or asian customers.
Every club has its own unique percentage of black/hispanic/asian/white dancers which will equate to maximum earnings potential for the dancers and for the club, based on the club's own customer base and the preferences of those customers. If the actual number of dancers strays too far from that ideal percentage, everybody's earnings potential goes down, including the black dancers. My comment about the SCORES approach was only that they are the only club that I know of which provides every dancer regardless of race with an equal chance to earn money from their customer base. But they're also one of the only clubs I know of where it's very possible for a dancer to LOSE MONEY due to the astronomical stage fee if she doesn't earn enough from the club's customer base to cover it, which automatically results in "financially unpopular" dancers having to look for a different club to work in! Because of this unique setup, the racial composition of SCORES dancers is totally determined by the preferences of SCORES customers and not by club management. Even so, there aren't that many black dancers at SCORES compared to the black population percentage of New York City (although there are a few black SCORES dancers who do extremely well). As to the actual reason for this, I have no idea other than to assume that if all black dancers who tried dancing at SCORES were earning money they would continue to work there.
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Melonie, I always find your comments full of insights. They made me think about how staff and other dancers affect choices.... I like dancers who are pretty, slender, bright and unassuming. In one club my fav is young, white and centerfold material. If I walk in the door, a bouncer or waitress will find her for me. They'll call the dressing room and do whatever it takes. Dancers and staff will tell me I have perfect taste.... In another club my fav is young and white with small boobs. When I walk in, no one looks for her. Dancers will joke with me and ask why I don't want a "real woman."... In a third club my fav is black and lots of fun. Waitresses and other dancers kid me about my "ghetto girl" and invariably point out white dancers I might like. I call them on it, but the comments always keep coming back.... I can see the players within the SC system pushing customers toward a standard white centerfold image. Even the subtle looks make me feel like a different person in each club. I can imagine how less secure customers would handle this.
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Wow..... thanks for getting this thread going, Tina. I'm not "ethnic" ("Swedish girls of the world UNITE and overthrow the oppressors!!!") but I HAVE seen it first hand. In Phonex, black girls got MARGINALLY hired (a couple of "tokens") but treated like shit by most of the other dancers. I made friends with one black girl who worked the same nights, and she was the sweetest person working there -- one of the few girls I could really trust to watch my back (if you KNOW what I mean).
On the other hand -- Hispanic girls need not apply at CERTAIN clubs. If the club got hispanic customers, then sure, they would hire hispanic dancers. However, LOTS of clubs had this mental idea that either they catered to hispanic customers or they didn't, and if they DID, then they thought they would chase off their anglo customers. Thus, they either DID or they DIDN'T. If you were a hispanic dancer, you could either work at some clubs or not work at others..... Unfortunately, the clubs that would hire hispanic girls seemed to be the raunchier or seedier clubs. The better "show" bars would rather hire Martian girls than hispanic girls.
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I agree Susan that hispanic dancers have every bit as much of a problem with clubowners as black dancers do. But I can guarantee you that, from a clubowner's point of view, they feel they are totally justified in limiting the black/hispanic dancer percentage. I can't tell you how many times I have heard club management getting on the case of black/hispanic dancers for high mileage, drugs, boyfriend problems in the clubs etc. On the other hand, on those occasions where there actually were high mileage, drug and boyfriend problems in the club the black/hispanic dancers tended to have a pretty high degree of involvement (not to say that white or asian dancers are problem-free for sure). But your comment about black/hispanic dancers being for the most part relegated to second tier clubs, and the fact that second tier clubs are more prone to high mileage, drug and boyfriend problems, would make any racial assumptions about dancers on the part of the clubowners totally invalid. On the flip side, second tier clubs tend to have a higher percentage of black/hispanic club customers.
At any rate, this is a chicken and egg situation in regard to where the problem really starts. The fact is that a problem does exist, and there doesn't really appear to be any way out of it except the Atlanta answer - i.e. a club customer base which is racially diverse, where all club customers regardless of race have 'class' and spend significant amounts of money in the clubs! But as long as there are areas where white club customers comprise the majority of a club's customer base, and where white customers comprise an even larger majority of dollars spent in the club, and where black/hispanic vs white community relations are, shall we say, "less than perfectly peaceful", ethnic dancers are going to have an uphill time.
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Well, I guess I am in the minority. Although, I do come from a different ethnic background, European Spanish/Irish/American mix; the one thing that has NEVER happened to me was hassle by the management. I have worked in top tier clubs in CA and Houston and go-go clubs, which I guess would be second tier, I am not sure. Maybe I am being defensive but I have always been highly esteemed by the management of the clubs I have worked for over the last eight or so years and I have never , ever been accused of being a "high mileage person" or trouble maker, drug user,et.
Perhaps I am ranting, but I have been told by management at clubs where I have worked that I have won popularity lists due to my personality and approach and my ethnicity never entered into the equation.
Perhaps I am just tired. I can work with women from anywhere as long as they are courteous and clean. It is the "tweakers" that depress and scare me.
Just my rant,
Corey
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The biggest problem that needs to be addressed is that life experience causes more Hispanics and Blacks to be rough around the edges than whites.
This is a white dominated country so naturally you will have a larger percentage of white people who have been exposed to the better things in life than Hispanics and Blacks.
In a higher end club it takes an ethnic dancer who moved up from the barriers that holds their race down and who is used to being around white people of all types and not just their own race and who is articulate and polished to hold their own there.
Many girls in this business white and otherwise need to attend a "charm school" held by club management to teach them proper etiquette and work ethics.
All blacks and hispanics are not ghetto and barrio material and all should not be discriminated against because the stereotype of our races is bad.
There are many fucked up white dancers who call their guy old man and vice versa old lady who are the scum of scum and every club is full of them, even the higher end ones.
This business is going to attract a higher number of "down on their luck" people of all races than most mainstream jobs, you know that.
And if blacks and hispanics are only used to their race because they haven't had the opportunity to live in integrated areas with parents who made it to the middle and upper middle classes then they are likely to harbor an attitude when club "issues" arise.
Clubs will ALWAYS have problems with dancers. Most dancers have an attitude no matter what color they are and this board is made up of a somewhat higher caliber dancer than the average club workplace.
I am always told I don't act like lots of black dancers and am mellow. There are nice hispanic girls too. You can't judge girls, just hire em and if they don't work out, let em go until you find the ones that are good reliable workers.
I just worked with a black girl in Montana last week who told me she doesn't associate with blacks or have black. She is just a showoff and I run circles around her when it comes to selling dances. I am reliable and don't cause problems and get along well at most clubs I work at. Should I be discriminated against because some other black girls are fuck ups?
Some white girls use the clubs to set up dates in. Does that mean all white girls should be discriminated against because of the actions of a few?
Until white business people wake up and realize that their race caused ghettos, and the crime that comes from them and works to help those people rise up, race wars in this country will become more and more prevalent. and black and hispanic people need to work together to create wealth and run professionally operated businesses so that they are not dependent on the white man for their livelihood.
I'm tired of having to prove myself and kiss someones ass to ge hired and when I retire from this will not ever do it again. All blacks are not the same.
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Yes, yes, yes Tina I agree with virtually everything that you say. The only comment where I would beg to differ is your advice to clubowners that ... " I am always told I don't act like lots of black dancers and am mellow. There are nice hispanic girls too. You can't judge girls, just hire em and if they don't work out, let em go until you find the ones that are good reliable workers. " I agree with you that there certainly are nice, reliable black and hispanic dancers. I also agree that it would be a good thing if clubowners gave all dancers a chance by hiring them and "letting them go" if things didn't work out. This is exactly what I was talking about when I posted about how it works at SCORES. Dancers at SCORES who don't work out, though, don't have to be "let go" - they CHOOSE to leave on their own because they're unable to earn enough money from the customer base to cover the stage fee and still have any money left over for themselves. This means that there are no "incidents" when a dancer chooses to leave, and it also means that there aren't any SCORES dancers continuing to work in a situation which is "not working out" (not for very long anyhow).
But we both know that SCORES setup is not typical of most clubs. In most clubs, something entirely different often happens. If a clubowner hires a dancer who "doesn't work out", it's often very difficult for the clubowner to fire her without risking some sort of incident or backlash, particularly if that dancer is ethnic and if that dancer has not done something grievously wrong which would be legal grounds for immediate dismissal in the straight world. Instead what usually happens is that the dancer in question keeps working at the club, keeps earning significantly less than the other dancers, usually exhibiting lots of attitude both to the club customers who don't prefer to spend money on her and to the other dancers, sometimes offering higher mileage in an attempt to raise her income etc. This is not a good situation for the dancer in question, for the other dancers, for the club customers who don't prefer to spend money on her, or for the clubowner. When the dancer in question finally decides to leave on her own, the clubowner will certainly remember what happened with the previous dancer when looking at hiring a new girl to take her place. A clubowner making a hiring decision based on this memory is certainly prejudicial if YOU happen to be one of the group of new girls auditioning for the clubowner - but then again as you correctly point out, you and virtually every other girl that posts on this BBS is not exactly typical of your average dancer. But I have to agree that there's absolutely no way that you can demonstrate the fact that you are "different" than the last girl to a clubowner during a 5 minute audition.