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I used to feel that way too re: contact
I used to think its their bodies, let them do what they want. I live in lap dance heaven- Tampa Fl. But then I started seeing how it affected the industry. Ladies- we are going to have to make a choice here. Change is happening and we can either take control and start doing less contact and keep our clubs open. Or we can let the politians do it for us and close us down, put us jail and give us criminal backgrounds. This is what is happening! Open your eyes, start paying attention to the news in other cities and you will see. The men will come in and pay for what ever we offer them. Sure it will be a shock at first but they went decades w/o being able to touch and they will get used to it again. The only way to keep our industry alive is to take back our power from the owners, the customers and most importantly the politians! We ARE the product. Without us there is no point.
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
Star,
By the way, honey, I do read the news and have seen first hand the law changes in some cities.
Do you really think that the politicians are going to leave us alone just because there is no touching? They don't like our industry and will find any reason they want to shut us down. I know, they scream about the contact, but do you honestly think that their motive to get rid of us stems just from that?
How long have you been dancing?
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
Hi hon,
Last question first- I have been dancing 6 years.
I do realize that politicians ( who use us to get their names in the news, sex sells as you know, it is like a witch hunt!) will try to close us down no matter what. BUT- I think it will drop by like 80% if contact wasn't in the picture. My reasoning here is that since prostituion is illegal everywhere except outside L.V. they wouldn't have anything tangible to attach their arguements to- and that is what they are saying contact dancing are- and in some cases it is true.
Almost all of the cases that haven't included contact issues have failed in court. All they have been able to do is make us wear pasties and g-strings (Eirie, PA case) and ban alcohol- that arguement is along the lines of using woman/nudity for the purpose of selling products. Our right to preform has been clearly established by the supreme courts.
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
HI if you guys don't mind i would like to add my opion to this topic,
First off i am new to exotic dancing. I have been dancing now for about two months at a upscale gentlmen's club. I dance in minnesota so i am not that familliar with how dances are in more libral states like nevada, florida or texas but i do know in most clubs i have checked out might as well be in those states because i feel the basically go way beyond dancing you might as well be getting the guy off with your hand because that was all i mostly have seen the girls do. It really pissed me off because there is no talent or art or even sexiness in it. A dance should be a dance, a tease and i personaly think that we are compromising ourselves for the customer. Star i think you are right if we keep the contact to a minninum the customers will still pay for it and we will be the ones who benifit. I dont really do lap dancing at my club we do table dancing. Where there is very little contact like we can touch their face, leg or shoulder. We can only have one knee on their leg at once and i really perfer it that way. I know some girls who think they might make more money rubbing their boobs in the guys face but i honestly can't comment on how much they make because i have never worked in that kind of club so i can not compare what they make to what i do. All i can say is i am satisfied with what i make and can go home to my boyfriend without feeling like i just cheated on him. All i can say is i am pretty tired of how stripping has turned into. You dont know how sick i am of hearing "well, in texas they do this and that and blah blah blah" I just wish all clubs were non contact or at least very minimal contact. I think it would elimanate alot of the bullshit customers think they can get away with. We are the ones in control a customer should be ashamed to ask or expect something more than just to be entertained. We are strip clubs not brothels. Just thought i would share my feelings. thanks!!
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
YES! It is about time for us to reclaim the stage and be allowed to focus on our performance. I am tired of being judged and getting paid according to how far I'll compromise myself, how many rules I can get away with breaking, and how much pride I can swallow! This industry is about due for a major turnaround ( dare I say the word revolution? ) I have been dancing for 8 years, and every year I see less and less dancing going on and more lapgrinding. I have spoken to many customers who actually prefer an oldfashioned, teasing tabledance to someone mechanically grinding against their crotch while staring off into space....
I will never forget talking to a dancer from another ( unnamed ) club, who told me that she has her regular customers wear condoms under their clothes during lapdances so that she wouldn't come in contact with "anything"!
Gross...
Now, even though I know that this is an extreme example, we have to draw the line somewhere!
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
(Well, I have been in discussions with Star before on this issue, and I believe she knows my basic stance on said issue.)
I'll add this:
I wouldn't say the owners are a main CAUSE of the level of contact in clubs today. More-so it's a case of them not doing anything to control, nor reverse it.
It's to be seen that competition plays no small part in the rise in contact, etc. for the $.
Contact (extras, etc.), for the most part, draws customers. The owners realize this, and are there to line their pockets. Therefore, why would they stand in the way of something that makes them $$$.
Therein lies the problem.
I am by no means implying that the dancers are the cause.
It's a chain reaction that involves owners, dancers, and customers alike.
And of course, there's society in the 21st century that drives the 'vehicle'.
I like how, in your post Star, you directed your concern towards the customers as well; if not directly.
The "pimp owners" (as another animate poster elsewhere labelled them) are simply providing the public with a product/service (excuse my simplified labelling), in hopes of making a buck.
This IS a business.
If the dancers offer a more desirable product, and the customer responds with interest, the dominoes fall.
If the customer requests extra service and the dancer responds, you have the same thing.
The owners are simply riding along. (Most anyways. I won't say all.)
The idea that "there will always be another, new dancer to replace that one" is true.
How do you reach these not-yet dancers right now? (Besides places such as this web-site, and others similar, you don't)
Given at this point in time, in most places, the dancers out-number the customers; it's a fine time to place positive influence on the driving force behind the rise in contact.
(The customers.)
~Tre
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
What if there were a place (say Nevada) that had establishments with varying levels of contact, with everything from go-go dancing/non contact to full-on legal brothel? Customers and employees could pick whatever level of contact they're comfortable with and visit/work at that place. Assuming each place were legal, would this solution make everyone happy? Or for some reason would customers looking for slight contact go to a non-contact club, and dancers willing to do slight contact work at a non-contact place, etc.? It seems like it could work in theory, but what does everyone think about it working in practice?
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
What you've described is basically the way it is now.
Though not necessarily officially categorized as such.
The rub is (using your categories), the go-go bars nearly cease to exist due to lack of draw; The no-to-low contact places are being pressured by the high-contact clubs and their patrons and dancers to push the level of contact their dancers/club offers in order to compete.
(Whew; long sentence) ::)
Highly unlikely that a situation such as the one you described will ever happen (again).
As it is now, the customers who do prefer a low-to-no contact club do tend to stick to these clubs, but the problem being this customer type is a dying breed.
In most places, the high-contact clubs, and legal brothels will be full of customers who can get their rocks off for a moderate price; while the no-contact clubs offering merely dances for close to the same price quickly starve.
The majority of the dancers will follow the money as well, or starve themselves.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
star we have debated this before. hey i am all for no contact dancing.. but untill it is a COUNTRYWIDE ordinance it isnt going to work untill the SUPREME COURT says that all dances have to be no contact. any dancer/club uprising wont work... why?? because customer x will say hey i'll go to memphis, kentucky, miami, tampa, keywest, houston ect,ect and get my contact dance. yes if ALL clubs were no contact they would have no choice and appreciate what they got in the way of no contact. dancers riseing up and rebelling... wont work club owners see dollars signs and current trends and will follow suit. girls that say hey i wont do .. insert action.. will be replaced by 20 that will do those things. i would love to go back to no contact, but untill a NATIONAL law is put in effect it wont happen. my 2 cents and yes i have been around a long time and have seen it all. star if intrested email me, i'm not against you , just know at this point it is hard to change things..... [email protected]
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
I was talking to a club regular about this and he mentioned a phenomenon he called "comfort creep" -- girls start doing worse and worse dances the longer they work there, and this lowers the bar further and further. A year or two ago, he said, at my club the dances involved very little contact. Then girls started doing a little sideways rubbing, then it was a little butt grinding, and now it's degenerated to the point where if you don't grind hardcore, it's very difficult to make money. Every girl at my club has had a guy come during a dance at least once.
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
Hi Ed,
I agree with you, but most dancers don't. Now just be prepared for a hell of a lot of loud, winey, bitchie dancers to respond to your post.
The fact is most dancers/strippers do not want to do contact. I could care less because I'm a very affectionate person who enjoys giving pleasure to my customers. But to most dancers on this board they would consider me a whore because I give contact, and dare I say it, I enjoy it. DEAR GOD!! How Appauling! Gee! I wonder why there opinions don't bother me? Could it be that I don't go around complaining about life and how hard and unfair it can be........posibbly. :)
Don't waste your breath Ed. I use to try to argue my point to a lot of them and it was just a waste of time.
The, "I'm not a "Dirty Girl"/ "Dirty Dancer", cry, from many dancers will be heard till the end of time. ;)
My opinion is they have there views and I have mine. Mine may be the better one but, hey, that's neither here nor there. ;) :D
I'm pretty sure I've offended a few dancers here, but guess what? I don't care. ;D
There will probably be a bunch of posts now about how dancers like me are the demise of the industry. Well, So it is written, so it is done, say it the queen. So as one of my peers had once said, "Let them eat cake".
Kisses to all,
Candice
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
I work at a pasties, thong no contact club, strictly enforced, i just recently started working on my off days from my home club at a full nude, full contact bar.... these r two different worlds, most of the girls in my home club are classy, intelligent and goal oriented, the other club on the other hand, the girls are smoking pot and who knows what else, drinking till drunk and senile, very brash and forward..... now... Im a kinda middle of the road kinda girl, I dont mind some contact (boobs/Butt/grind) but dont be trying to insert or grab crotch ect. and if a customer keeps his hands to himself he gets alot more contact from me than if he is playing octopus LOL BUt I always try to do my stage show/dances/conversation with some class, I think perhaps if we girls as a whole conducted ourselves as classy yet naughty, gave a bit of contact but not so much it seemed as if we were trickin and perhaps put a bit more seductiveness instead of all out sleeze into our dancing that maybe things would be better, now this is just my opinion so it means nothing. this is a hard business to even begin to think about cleaning up, its just not a feasable thing to do. i think we just need to hope it doesnt get worse ya know?
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
A good point, Allota.
One that many often forget. Most of the time dancers are comparing things now to the way they were 10 years ago.
With the growth, and changes in society, the way sex (and sexuality) is viewed now is much different. Viewed more openly, and accepted.
In the direction the industry is headed, imagine the way things will be 10 years from now.
Of course it's merely speculation about the way things might be in the future, but many dancers are quite lucky to have what they have now.
Most of the talk is about how (we) must get things back to the way they were; it will never happen.
A much more feasible plan would be to stop things now, where they are.
Also highly unlikely, but certainly not as impossible as reverting.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Like Candice, I sometimes enjoy the contact, but I have a problem with men expecting they can do whatever they like to my body. A few weeks ago, my nipples were so sore at the end of the night (and Yes I do tell them to take it easy) that I actually started crying on my last dance and told the guy I"d had enough.
Lap dancing is illegal in every city on Ontario through city by-laws but pretty much every club is full contact. I've been in the business since 86 so I"ve watched the devolution of the business because of this and a few other factors. At the club I just got fired from tonight, I am the only dancer there who did a good show. The rest walk around to shitty music and bore the fuck out of everyone including me.
The other club I work at has about 5 great dancers out of say 50. the rest...
Candice made an excellent point about the lack of manpower enforcing laws.
And I do like the suggestion of having bars where there are varying degrees of contact. Such is not the case here in Ontario. It's all or nothing. And there are raids or talk of raids often eough to make me nervous.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
I should also add that club management makes absolutely no effort to let the customers know that what they are doing is in fact illegal.
I should also add that the dirty dancer/clean dancer forced dichotomy has pissed me off for some time now too. divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.
And for the lady who mentioned that magical word "REVOLUTION" , know that if you try and try, if you go out on a limb for the fruit, you CAN make changes in this industry.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
if we all stuck together and all did the same thing we'd all make money
but well all know thats not going to happen :(
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
All I want to say here is that contact should be kept to minimum in the clubs, but the owners do play a HUGE part in how much goes on. I had a manager explain to me once, that in hard economic times, owners actually tell him to relax the rules a bit in order to maintain profits. He went on to say that equally, in harder economic times, dancers also complain alot more about rules being too tight. Of course there are those of us who aren't willing to compromise ourselves for a buck, but the hard truth is that the majority of owners and dancers will relax their own standards when faced with the prospect of not being able to pay the bills. We experience men asking for more than is 'allowed' for a price all the time, and when money is tight, more is 'allowed'. Just like in any other business, when business slumps, service increases in efforts to keep the profits. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a basic fact of any business, adult or otherwise.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
Wow, I missed this thread entirely! I also agree with it entirely. IMHO these changes in club culture are pushing US clubs to follow in the footsteps of European clubs toward a two tier system. To accomodate the upscale businessmen and tourists we'll wind up with a handful of upscale no contact "show clubs" employing only the best of the best looking dancers. To accomodate everyone else we'll wind up with very high contact "sleaze clubs" which push, bend or totally disregard the limits of local laws. Present "neighborhood clubs" which can't offer the best of the best looking dancers, and which won't offer the very high levels of contact, will wind up out of business.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
Hi Candice. I must admit that I am surprised that you enjoy the contact because, as you said, most dancers don't. To me that is a question like are you turned on my dancing? Well, yeah, sometimes, but I can't offer any promises. And, honestly, it sounds like their opinions bother you a little.
I also have serious questions about the business 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. Everybody always says, oh, before 9/11 everyone was making money, before lapdancing everyone was making money in 1978 everyone was making money. Frankly, I have read some accounts of people who started dancing in the 70's. Money, working conditions etc., no better than now. They were never employees like at a company - there were never benefits, there was never sick leave and some clubs were just as tacky or gross as any club today. This sense that if we take it backwards we'll all be happy is not going to get us anywhere. And really when you think about it, how long did anyone think that guys were going to fork over $20.00 after $20.00 to see a topless girl repeatedly twist her hips a foot away? I mean, once I can see. I could see buying one such dance. Maybe even twice. But then you've seen it! Why in the name of god would any drop $200.00 on that? I don't think the alternative has be to hard core, but there has to be some reason to purchase more.
Varying degrees of contact? What's the point? I mean aren't most the girls here complaining about the fact that men don't want to pay for low/no contact when they can have full contact? What good is that going to do anyone except the full contact ladies who already have the "upper hand"? (I'm not sure they in fact do, but is seems to be an a priori assumption here, so I'm going with it.)
Further, Star, what the politicians could "latch on to" would be some statute in local or state laws that refers to "community standards."
And ladies, remember that while we are performers, we are also sex workers. If we weren't selling a sexual commodity we wouldn't have to work naked.
Love to all
Jenny
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
what an informative post jenny
its girls like u ,melonie and others that keep me coming back to this site :)
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
I am and have been a no contact dancer for years. I will stay that way. Period. If a guy wants contact take another girl who will let him touch a bit. I can thank the way i was thinking when i got into this business for keeping me this way. (honestly, because i tried laps, once, forget it.) I never gave myself enough credit i thought. I would at times think how much more clientel i could get if i did laps, VIP. But then i look at the guys who are my regulars, and the new ones that i add on the list, and i never see them with a contact girl. I will stick with them! Guys have morals too, and some just like us, don't want to be touched, they don't want to touch. I asked my 3 nights a week regular "why he does not ever get lap dances and such," he just plainly said that "he is very visual, an extreme voyeur, and loves to be able to see very well at every move a woman is making. He loves stages. Now that makes sense to me. He is married and told me his wife gives him the sexual stimulation, he is there for the sexual energy. I loved hearing that. Not all guys are like him...a rare gem, for a stage dancer like me. I raise my hand being one not to complian about no contact. I do well with being a no contact dancer. But being that person i have to work hard, dress as different as i can, constantly. And not be shy, smile flirt and be a go getter! Yes we still have guys out there who are no contact guys. get inside their head, make them feel special, like them. Don't ask, tell them what you are going to do for them. With a regular i spend about 20 minutes chatting, with a new guy maybe 10. If he becomes a regular i will spend 20 minutes with him as well. Some of these guya are lonely, and generous, they will pay for your time to chat, knowing you could have been working on stage.
Thats pretty much how my dancing job has taken me. Not to mention dancing has taught me to be a people person, and to respect evryone, and their opinions about dancing. Pamela ;)
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
hell ya - enforce the law. PERIOD. I agree with you 100% - so many clubs turn a blind eye for whatever reason...I have been ragging on the enforcement issue for what seems forever, it takes the responsibility from the girl to lay it on the line and possibly lose the customer, if a bouncer is circulating in the VIP rooms...doing the occasional tap on the customers shoulder with a no-no look on his face is enough to deter the direction the groping is going, in any event there will always be a nasty girl to make it difficult for the cleaner girls, but I always try to make lemonade with the thought that she helps bring the boys in, it doesnt mean I gotta be dirty, and I can probably squeeze a dance or two out of each one before they all know it! ANyhow - I think the snowball is fast becoming an avalanche and no end in site... cooperation amongst clubs -- and dancers AND the law, has always been issue.
I do know that I will be long gone before the full blown prostitution is prevelant within the walls of strip clubs I work at. It has a ring to it like the "old days" I read a canadian book (autobiographical) on a strippers life whereas it ranged from gogo waitresses to showgirls and then the actual feature on stage, all in one club the varying degrees of entertainment - like a scale....so maybe it will come to that on this level, there will be topless and full nude and then the finale of the prostitution dancer all in one club. It could happen I suppose? When I was in Australia there wasnt a club in the ENTIRE continent with the exception of the showbar(the Crazy Horse in Adelaide) I was working that wasnt a prostituion club! FULL ON! Yikes! And over in Europe, maybe one or two out of every ten nude bars was JUST a nude bar, in fact they had a code if the nude bar was called a nude "nightclub" it meant the girls inside were for HIRE. I worked one of the few nude only bars....what I am saying is sooner or later this is probably what we are coming to - us real nude entertainers are a dying breed. The whores are taking over, and I am at a loss for a solution - the enforcement issue - I guess will delay the inevitable but I am guessing this IS the direction our world is going. SAD isnt it?
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
Jenny hit on the true nature of what has changed over the past 10 years - the migration in the public consciousness from "entertainer" to "sex worker". Gypsy Rose Lee is probably rolling over in her grave today! But Gypsy Rose Lee would also be laughed off the stage today, or at the very least be starving to death.
I also wholeheartedly agree that the likely future of US clubs is in the direction of the two tier system of clubs in Europe, Australia etc. There will be top shelf show clubs for "entertainment" of upscale customers and tourists looking for the glamourous showgirls, employing only the best of the best looking girls. For everybody else, including girls who don't fall in the category of being the best of the best, there will be the "sex clubs". Whether or not society openly permits the sex as it does in Europe, or whether the sex occurs outside the public eye as in Australia or frankly in some clubs in the US already, is the only variable in the equation. The existing "neighborhood clubs" which can't offer the best of the best looking girls, and which won't offer the sex, will be out of business.
IMHO the "death blow" to the exotic dancing business was the negative publicity resulting from high profile club busts i.e. Atlanta's Gold Club. By connecting organized crime, prostitution, professional athletes etc, in one headline it seems to have permanently driven home the image of dance clubs as sleaze clubs in the mind of the American public, just like Hollywood had been saying all along. This spelled the end of the "fun times" in dance clubs for businessmen and their clients, this put up a "danger" sign for other professional athletes or professional "anything's" for that matter that going to dance clubs could result in negative publicity which may affect their own careers etc. This started the snowball effect which will lead to a handful of squeaky clean show clubs where the businessmen and professionals feel 'safe', and all of the other clubs which the businessmen and professionals avoid. As a result the other clubs must offer "more", or watch their earnings evaporate to the point of bankruptcy.
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Re: I used to feel that way too re: contact
Hi Melonie. I think what I meant is that exotic dancers have always been sex workers. I think they are also performers and entertainers; and I don't think this is something that has changed a lot. 10 years ago I don't anyone was saying that stripping was a valid art form - at least not more so than now. The public perception of stripping has always been whore: woman selling her body as sexual commodity to make a living. Gypsy Rose Lee was huge because she took off her clothes and showed more than other burlesque entertainers did, but there were, even in the days of vaudeville, burlesque entertainers in crappy conditions making shit money. GRL would be the fantastic, feature "10." But they had 7's and 8's then too.
Bottom line: I think that if you want the dancers to make change in this business you would need at least a city wide solidarity. That is at least an entire city of dancers willing to cut back on contact, let their earnings suffer for at least a year while the climate changes. I don't see that happening, myself, as most girls are in it for the quick money.
Leigh: I don't know if I'm willing to grant that it is sad. Inconvenient, maybe. You are in no position to judge other dancers. The name whore is probably equally applied to you by those outside the industry. Do you think you look so much more moral than a contact dancer from a person-on-the-street perspective? Do you think that limits should be pushed only the point that you are comfortable? That social mores should be suspended only as far you want? I do low contact myself, but when I signed up for this whole dancing thing I was willing to push boundaries of what was acceptable and not, and I don't know that I can bitch now because other people push farther than I did (even if I do sometimes want to). That kind of solidarity is going to get us nowhere.
Jenny
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Re: I used to feel that way too contact
Quote:
When I was in Australia there wasnt a club in the ENTIRE continent with the exception of the showbar(the Crazy Horse in Adelaide) I was working that wasnt a prostituion club! FULL ON! Yikes!
Australia has some of the most rigidly enforced laws in the world. You must be at least a foot from the customer at all times. Period. Undercover cops frequent the clubs. Of course, there are the trashy clubs that push the rule, but most, at least in my state, are happy to obey the law. Leigh, I don't know where you were dancing, but the information you got was seriously incorrect.
Brothels are legal in Australia. Why would a strip club risk closure and the applicable charges/fines/jail time when they could do it legally and more profitably?