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To grind or not to grind?
I was reading with interest and eventually boredom (it got really long winded) the topic on Ummm... I came. I'd like to know who thinks what about grinding. Surely there's a fine line between the art of "striptease" and contact? Some clubs allow it, some don't but dancers seem to have different views on it. If grinding is acceptable to lots of dancers, what does the definition dirty dancer mean to you? Lots of dancers complain about dirty dancers, and I have to agree, it hurts the clean ones, but if it's a grinding club, how do you define it?
I'm curious to know who thinks what, if anyone would like to share their opinion.
Oh, and for the record, absolutely YUK to that other thread which I'm totally not interested in reviving. Hence the reason for this one!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I think grinding has gone a long way to ruining the business, and leads, at least indirectly, into the proliferation of extras.
Most of my co-workers and friends would be very upset if they weren't allowed to do it--not because they love rubbing dick that much (sorry guys). They would be upset because it's now the only way to make money in most clubs.
There are very few true stripclubs left, they should be called grindclubs. At best focus on the stage is considerably reduced, as the guys are thinking of who they can get the best grinding from. At worst the guys don't give a fuck who's on stage, or how she's dancing, they are much more concerned with who might jerk them off. Check out Stripclublist to see what I mean--you NEVER hear about how so-and-so is a great or a sexy dancer, it's always so-and-so gives a good grind, or maybe even sucks dick. Or "This club is great for contact", and so forth. Even StripClubJunkie will show evidence of this trend in customer expectations. How many threads are devoted to actual stripping, and how many to lap-dancing?
When did this start? It's too late to reverse the trend, I know, any club that tried this would be driven out of business rapidly.
Now you have so many clubs where there are girls giving moderate to extreme extras, forcing clean dancers to rub dicks more and more thoroughly, and allow more and more groping--leading inevitably to fingering attempts--just to keep the customers (the few that aren't really there for handjobs) happy. Then one day the rent and the car payment is due, no one wants a dance because they can't get enough "mileage", and the dancer either has to knuckle under to this shit, or find another job real fast.
I now hate to talk to newbies on SW, who like the idea of dancing erotically onstage or maybe in close proximity to customers--most of them will shortly discover that the way they will actually make money is by rubbing dicks more or less discretely. I still love working with newbies, but when they ask about lap-dances, I tell them to talk to the other dancers about it.
I actually love working the crowd and get along very well with most customers in the club, but my contempt for the kind of losers that post about this shit is growing steadily. This is one of the biggest reasons I generally cannot stomach going into SCJ, in spite of the many fine friends I have made in chat from there.
I would have been shocked to hear myself say all this four years ago when I started DJing. I have sold a hell of a lot of lapdances--in one club there would always be a fucking line for the VIP room after I gave my speil--and I will no doubt sell many more. But I am starting to feel like a pimp about it, at times.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I hate to grind and only do it for a few seconds and then move on. A dirty girl in my opinion is a girl that lets a guy touch her boobies, suck on her nips, knead her a**, finger her, kiss her. Or she rubs her boobies on a guys di*k, rubs her pu**y on a guys di*k, rubs her hands on a guys di*k (either outside or inside the pants) gives blowjobs, handjobs, or has sex with a guy. Or a girl that is obviously grinding to get a guy off.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
Club dancing and grinding, NO. It's not fair for one reason for the "clean" dancers, it's also not allowed in alot of clubs.
Now i do private shows, and i admit i grind! They have clothes on, i am watching them, i only do it for a few, and stop. Too much risk for a long term ld.
Just enough for more tipout!!!!
Pamela
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
he simple definition of a "dirty" dancer is one who gives two levels of contact more than you do.
My area is fairly middle of the road. The more (nudity/beautiful girls) you have, the less you give. The less you have (bikini bar/dancers past their prime) then the more you give.
The nude bars are no-alcohol, no-contact but hey... they're nude. Nude dancers here view contact as dirty.
The bikini bars are medium- to high-contact, depending upon the girl you get (with varying mild extras, always discrete enough that no one ever sees it... I know because I never saw it). They view toplessness as expected, with the occassional flash of the kitty or nipple sucking as no biggie, though if anyone sees it you'll be harassed out of the bar. Anything above that is dirty.
The best club in town is low- to medium-contact, the request for extras is laughed at. Anything above high contact is seen as dirty.
Myself, I give medium contact without nudity. The bikini stays on at all times.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
It's almost impossible to generalize about this topic. There is just too much variation from state to state, town to town and club to club. What's standard procedure in one town would get the club shut down in another. Even within the same town what's standard procedure in one club would get you thrown out of another. There's usually a huge difference in the amount of contact between the big glitzy night-club-with-booze-and-stage-show clubs than in the small BYOB LD factories. I'm sure the customer expectations are very different too. A girl working in a club pretty much has to do whatever the norm is in that club or she won't make much money. Choose a state/town/club that's right for you.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
Lap dances are meant to be a tease, if a gal has a problem with many customers spooging on her, then she's grinding too much and needs to back off. Definitely the sign of a dirty dancer. Really, it can happen occasionally, as we never know when a customer who hasn't had sex in years is going to come in and pathetically pop after a few songs. That's not our fault, but dirty dancers grinding away for whole songs at a time are really bringing the industry down.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
Thanks for all the positive responses! I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks striptease should be just that. It's a dying art form! I bet Betty Page never ground. (is that the past tense of grind :-)?) I guess I should of posted this on the club chat or dancer forums, but I inadvertantly posted it on the customer one. It just makes me frustrated when the rules are clearly laid out in a club, of no contact, but it still seems there is. It's really a fine line. :(
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I find it really bizarre the way some dancers complain about what other dancers are doing. I would expect dancers of all people to be among the least judgmental people in society but that's clearly not the case. For those of you who criticize others for doing things you don't do, don't you realize that's exactly what you hate about the way society treats you? Lighten up, stop being so judgmental of people whose views differ from yours. Everybody has different rules, it's part of what makes life fun. Accept it. Embrace it.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
The thing is, dancers are judgmental! I'm sure it stems from they fact that they have to work hard to make their own money. They all complain about each other, whos doing what, who stole whos client etc. It's a defense mechanism, and it comes from competition!
Okay, not all of them complain... but a lot do!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
The clubs near me are all "grind-the-whole-song" type clubs. I have a hard time figuring out certain things about those clubs (acceptable behavior within following the rules), since they seem so different than the clubs at which you ladies work and the experiences y'all share. So I have questions, but they tend to be touchy subjects which send people on rants about this or that at their clubs instead of answering the question about Club XYZ based on the rules of Club XYZ. I'm patient though, and I'll keep reading. Maybe one of these years I'll figure it all out.
-lestat1
7 years going to clubs and still a newbie!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. FONDL imagine you are a male stripper. Your job has always been to entertain the ladies, mostly middleaged and older, out of shape, homely gals. You don't mind that and you do your show and take your money home gladly. Lately things are different though because they have hired some new guys that are willing to cunnilingus the women in the lap dance area. So a 50 yr. old unattractive woman approaches you and says "what else do I get?" I guess you would just accept it and embrace it??? Pun intended!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
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Originally Posted by jennymodel link=board=8;threadid=5864;start=msg63727#msg63727 date=1074296663
Lately things are different though because they have hired some new guys that are willing to cunnilingus the women in the lap dance area. So a 50 yr. old unattractive woman approaches you and says "what else do I get?" I guess you would just accept it and embrace it??? Pun intended!
I just had a terrible flashback to the movie Kingpin. But hey, at least I can now tell people when I last vomited :o
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
That's such a great example JennyModel. Very well put, really funny and kind of ties in to the original thread I read, that made me ask the questions in this one!
Ummm... I came; was the name of it, or some such awful thing!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I think the point is grinding sets a new "standard" for the club just like "extras" do in certain clubs and it ruins it for dancers who do not wish to do this new standard.
But you could extend the same argument to other more subtle things like letting the customer slide that five spot between your g-string. There is probably always some activity that one dancer doesn't want to do that will upset her if another one does.
I understand if the line is drawn at extras but some of the fun in checking out a new club for a guy is seeing what the rules are "no touching", dancer can touch customer, etc.
The bottom line is there are city laws that are either enforced like in San Jose where NO touching whatsoever is allowed (guys must put there hands at there side and if they touch a bouncer promptly warns them) or they are not enforced (or there aren't laws to begin with) like in San Francisco where touching is the norm and as I commented in another post, extras are prevalent (in some of the clubs).
The solution is either not to work in the cities where local ordinances aren't strict enough for your taste. San Francisco is a very liberal city. They have legalized medical marijuana and I could see this city decrimilizing prostitution in the future...
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I'm not a grinder and get a bit pissy when others are doing it. Now I'm not an air dancer anymore but i really miss the days when i made better money being an air dance. I'm more of the brush up type. This whole grinding the guy untill he has to releive himself makes me sick. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A FANTASY!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
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So a 50 yr. old unattractive woman approaches you and says "what else do I get?" I guess you would just accept it and embrace it???
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OK, imagining I was 19-25 again.. probably, yeah. I mean, how unattractive are we talking?
I do agree with your general point, though. The other dancers' behavior affects the way you wind up having to do your job. It's like professional athletes taking steroids, it doesn't affect just them.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
This may sound bad, truth is we need to change wit the times, or we fall way behind and lose alot of money. I hated ld's, did not do them for years. Then started to air dance, then ld's came along for me. I almost was not even touching the guy, it kinda made me sick, i LOVED the stage.
Now i do pvt. shows and make alot more money when i do one. I admit i grind laps, i love it. I make more money this way.
Inside a club i have respect for other dancers, and would never do this. But the whole club scene is changing if you look around. It sucks, the clean "fantasy" dancers are being starved out because of this.
I don't see grinding as bad with both parties clothes on. But watch out for what may come. It's a judgment call. I see much grinding today, much.
Pamela
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I really cant come up with a tactful way to explain this, so I'll have to just be blunt...
A dancer that grinds a guy's swollen member through his pants really has zero division from a dancer that just pulls the thing out and gives him a handjob. The two are equal in my opinion. Actually, I take that back- the handjob I have more respect for as it makes no mistake or illusion for what's being performed, and generally involves substantially more safety (glove/condom).
The bottom line is- you are either selling sensual-fantasy, or you're selling sexual-stimulation. There is no soft boundry here (no pun intended).
Pamela is correct that it's more a sign of changing with the times. Whereas some girls are perfectly comfortable, enjoy and make more money providing sexual stimulation in one form or another, others are disgusted and repulsed by the idea. Grinding lapdances are just a way some strippers are working around club rules to provide extras, but it comes at the comfort level of their peers and an increased health and arrest risk for themselves (speaking of inside club occurances.. obviously pvt stuff the stripper has more control and can impose their own rules).
It's interesting that Mark brings up San Francisco "extras" clubs as, at least the ones with dancers that don't need to be in pitch black for any guy to even want to touch them. The absolute best sensual-fantasy, full contact lapdances can be obtained at these quality extras clubs. The women maintain a strict division between sensual and stimulation since providing sexual-stimulation at the lapdance phase could cost them the ability to hit the paydirt for a private booth sale. Accordingly, the lapdances are slower, less emphasis on trying to physically stimulate the patron in the groin and more a cause of stirring sensuality.
It's absolutely ironic and can only happen in San Francisco where a patron can visit a "Gentleman's" club where no extras are available or allowed, and have a lapdancer try to grind a guy to orgasm through his pants.. then walk 4 city blocks away to an extras-heavy sex club and actually obtain more Gentleman-like lapdances of sensuality and skill. Go figure.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I don't mind sitting down on a guy's lap and wiggling for a few seconds, but it's boring for him and me when all there is to the dance is my back to him and my ass shaking. Guys tell me all the time that they like my light touch and that I give great dances, and I don't do a whole lot of grinding. What I think they like is the intimacy I try to create with eye contact and sexy postures and light touches rather than treating them like some sort of mechanical bull.
That being said I think that grinding looks bad when it's all there is to the dance but in small doses it's ok.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I must admit I'm a grinding fan :yes: but not to the point of getting my weiner crushed :no: nor cumming in the process.
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Originally Posted by guywholikesdancers link=board=8;threadid=5864;start=msg63825#msg63825 date=1074340776
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So a 50 yr. old unattractive woman approaches you and says "what else do I get?" I guess you would just accept it and embrace it???
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OK, imagining I was 19-25 again.. probably, yeah. I mean, how unattractive are we talking?
How unattractive ?
Think Rossanne Barr or Janet Reno and little grey haired grandma's too or think of a 5'2 350 lbs woman with body oder and wiskers on her chin who DEMANDS to be sexually serviced. And if you don't service her she tries to force a finger or two up your ass anyway. >:(
That is the kind of stuff a dancer deals with now that contact is so common. It was one thing to stand in front of people like this and dance, quite another to have them touching and demanding to be touched.
But as Pam said a good dancer changes with the times, or moves on :-\
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
i DO NOT judge my fellow dancers. whatever amount of grinding or contact they want to give is fine with me as long as it is an accepeted practice where they work, not to be done where it isnt allowed/accepted.
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
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Originally Posted by velvet link=board=8;threadid=5864;start=msg63899#msg63899 date=1074365024
i DO NOT judge my fellow dancers. whatever amount of grinding or contact they want to give is fine with me as long as it is an accepeted practice where they work, not to be done where it isnt allowed/accepted.
I agree 100%. I only have a problem with extras or 'dirty dancing' if the girl is doing it where it is not generally accepted, simply because it screws up the whole demand
/ expectation standard when girls go too far in clubs. I realize some unscrupulous dancers like to invade lower contact clubs because they know they can generate distorted competitive advantage by providing services the other girls don't in those particular clubs, or that some girls with low skills realize they can compete with the better dancers if they provide more 'service'. Doesn't make it right or fair or acceptable. Either go with the norms at your club or find a club that fits your standards. Don't go to a low contact place and start grinding away or go to a standard grind club and start doing BJs. It is just not cool!
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Re:To grind or not to grind?
I grind. Not throughout the whole song, maybe half. How the hell else will you keep the customer spending lots of money on you if you don't grind at all? The customers have eyes, see? They look around and see guys with hands goodness knows where. They see grinding. If you are supersensual, you can get out of inappropriate fondling. To compete in many places, you have to grind. There are many different types of situations a dancer can be in. Many different options as well. I am glad Velvet is not judgemental.
JDS