I ran across a website about "feminist strippers" which I do not understand because it seems like a contradiction. In an attempt to try to understand the author's point of view, I read the majority of her website and I was not able to understand. I cut and pasted text from her website and replied with comments and questions. I would love to receive objective feedback concerning this topic.
Alysabeth’s website: http://www.geocities.com/alysabethc/strippers.html
(Note: Text surrounded with << >>'s are direct quotes taken from Alysabeth's website)
Dear Alysabeth:
I really enjoyed reading some of the articles that you have posted on your website.
You wrote:
<<Discourse is the way to bridge that gap, or to meet somewhere in the middle. Are understanding and civility not preferable to discord and separation? Is that not what humane, thinking people strive to achieve? I help myself when I seek that end.>>
Your words, which I've posted directly above, explain why I am writing to you.
<<Consequently, if a man has promised his partner that he won't look at girlie mags any more because he knows it hurts her feelings, then he probably shouldn't do it. Sure, he should try to get to the bottom of why she feels that way and work to change her mind, or at least let her know that he feels constrained and uncomfortable with the promise he's made. Ultimately, though, he has to face the fact that if he breaks it, it's broken, regardless of why.>>
When I read the above statement, I was able to understand that people resent others when they are forced to do something that they would not want to do. That is just basic human nature and for most people it is just common sense. According to what you've written, you seem to feel that women should not change the minds of men but men should work to change the minds of women. Why do you feel that way? If the female presented this issue in a relationship, isn't she trying to get to the bottom of why he and/or she felt a certain way? Granted, some women might do that for the sole purpose of controlling him, which would be wrong. If that is the problem then that is a completely different issue which retaliation of any sort, especially trying to control her by changing her mind, could not solve. Therefore, prematurely discounting her thoughts and feelings by automatically assuming that her mind needs to be changed is just plain wrong. To believe that women need to be changed means you assume they are wrong, that is just gossip and spreading rumors since you cannot possibly know. Trying to humiliate women by automatically making them wrong will not work....sorry but try again!!
It is even more interesting to me that in your first sentence you state that if a man has promised "then he probably shouldn't do it," then in your last sentence, you state that "ultimately" if he breaks it, it doesn't matter why (in other words he shouldn't do it if he promised not to). Is that not a contradiction or have I misunderstood?
<<Now it's up to you to figure out whether or not the promise you've asked him to make is a practical one, and whether or not a fantasy life with some scenarios that don't directly involve you - and that do involve other people and outlandish situations - is acceptable. You wonder how someone can view pornography and still remain faithful; It's my belief that you've answered your own question: I think fantasy and all of the things that inspire it are a large part of what makes it possible to stay with one person for a long time. The first and simplest point to be made, a no-brainer really, is that the girls in the magazines and the clubs are no real threat to your relationship.>>
I am not sure why it wouldn't be practical and how it would not directly involve or possibly be a threat toward others? Before you answer, I would like to explain my thinking here. According to what you wrote and from things that I have read on this and similar topics, it seems obvious that men feel some sort of connection when they are visually stimulated. At the same time, women tend to feel their connections when they are emotionally stimulated. I personally believe that it has more to do with culture (environment) than nature but that is another story. I also believe that people tend to view things from their own perspective rather than putting themselves in the other person's shoes. I believe that you can agree with that considering that seems to be a basic theme throughout your website. From that single perspective and consideration, women see porno and strip clubs as "no big deal" because they have a hard time understanding why men get so excited over them.
With that in mind, I would like to give an example from a female perspective. Since women feel connected emotionally we cannot fully imagine what it feels like to be connected physically. For women to feel connected emotionally, they like to have deep and meaningful conversations with men. (I say 'men' since I am trying to parallel the strip club experience b/c men go there to see women).
Another way of putting it....suppose a man had $50 to spend on his desires so he went out and bought an electric screwdriver b/c he loves tools. If he then bought his wife an electric screwdriver with the $50 that she could spend on her desires she most likely would be unhappy. She most likely wouldn't dislike the screwdriver and would likely use it and even need it in the future (everyone uses a screwdriver at one point or another) but if she could choose how to spend the money based on her desires she most likely would buy something like Estee Lauder make-up instead. In other words, if both could have their desires met based on a certain worth (limited dollar amount), the make-up and screwdriver would be equal for fulfilling their desires.
For women to feel deeply connected through understanding and being appreciated by another man they usually have to date them. I'm sure there are other ways for that to occur but traditionally women have to date men for that to happen. So the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men (he is visually stimulated while she is emotionally stimulated). So when you look at this from a female perspective, when men go to strip clubs, they are cheating.
If you look at some of the reasons that you've written why this should be OK b/c according to you it would not be a threat, they would match things that could be written about women dating other men. If men are looking elsewhere by going to see strippers in order to feel a connection, which helps to fulfill them, then something must be lacking in them. Isn't that the reason why people cheat? Also, you mentioned that the men could only look and have limited touching but there would most likely be no sex and he most likely wouldn't marry the stripper. If a women dated other men, would that be OK if she didn't have sex with him? If she is already married, then chances are she most likely won't leave her husband for the men she dates. So, if men go to strip clubs, wouldn't it be a double standard if women were not allowed to equally indulge?
Not to mention that by suggesting that women should have no problem with men going to strip clubs, you are saying that women are 'rewarded' by men going to those clubs b/c then he will not cheat. Why are you trying to sabotage the goal of internal rewards that are brought about by a decent and healthy relationship? Aren't external rewards interfering with the relationship's earned benefits? If he already had internal benefits, he wouldn't need to be satisfied externally.
If a man looked at a woman in public and found her attractive b/c she had beautiful lips or something....in other words he became visually stimulated....then if he got rejected when he asked for her phone number he would be disappointed. In strip clubs, men do not get to have the women that they lust after yet they don't seem to feel disappointed after going (just a guess based on what I've read). According to you, they aren't really getting anything out of the experience b/c it is a fantasy. An argument could be that strip clubs are more 'honest' b/c the men do get something and they know in advance what they can and cannot get. Therefore, they are not disappointed. If it is 'honest' then how is it also a fantasy? A fantasy used to release stress often leads to addiction. Alcohol and drugs are examples of such things and people that have gone through 12 step programs will tell you that alcohol and drugs are a lie....in other words fantasy.....in other words dishonest. How strip clubs are dishonest is expressed well by reading Helen Longino's statement below.
Note the abuse and degradation in the portrayal of female sexuality in Helen Longino's description of typical pornographic books, magazines, and films:
Women are represented as passive and as slavishly dependent upon men. The role of female characters is limited to the provision of sexual services to men. To the extent that women's sexual pleasure is represented at all, it is subordinated to that of men and is never an end in itself as is the sexual pleasure of men. What pleases women is the use of their bodies to satisfy male desires. (Longino, 1980, p. 42)
Further, men that go to strip clubs are trying desperately to avoid a painful relationship with their object of desire. The man is terrified of being abandoned and humiliated, exposed for his flaws (which is why the exposed stripper is desirable and looked down upon) and then discarded for the reject that he believes he is. Objectification due to emotional detachment and exposed vulnerabilities (nakedness) allow for unchallenged possession - thus ultimate feelings of manhood. The men MUST then look down upon the strippers since for them, they claim to possess, or have access to higher morals and values. If they placed themselves on the same level as the whores, they would become vulnerable which they have successfully avoided. Therefore, strippers are props, visual aides, objects, and symbols used for a ritual act for the man to act out. He recreates past rejections but this time he is the star of the show. For him to be "the star" the strippers have to be the objects under him.....less thans....he works to "balance" the insecurities that he feels in the form of releasing various stages of anger, stress and envy. Repeated acts fail to alleviate the man's feelings. If that were not the case, and if strip clubs were actually beneficial then men couldn't become addicted to them. Addiction & addictive types of behaviors are out of control behaviors used when the person's life is filled with chaos. The person seeks a relief to that, not something that will cause it to become worse but the problem is that they aren't aware of how to effectively relieve their pains. What is objectionable about strip clubs, then, is its abusive and degrading portrayal of females and female sexuality, not its sexual content or explicitness. Strip clubs tell lies about women and promote destructive behaviors by providing a source of defense mechanisms. For something to be used as a defense mechanism, the man must not be able to feel empathy or compassion toward it which means he remains detached and must hold a "holier than thou" stance toward the strippers.
Why are they avoiding their feelings by doing such things? When people 'avoid' things it means they are running from something. If they are running from something, then they are not communicating well in their current relationship. When people hide from themselves, they also hide from others. So, going to strip clubs is avoiding being respectful to themselves and their wives or girlfriends. Therefore, it does involve others. I am not saying that strip clubs are to blame but at the same time they are not a cure or solution. Comfort (like alcohol and drugs can bring people) does not equal a solution.
<<A sincere compliment really is appreciated. Sure, we all hear how beautiful we are whenever we work, but if you mean it we can tell, and it can still make our day. However, you're not the first to tell us we're smart or to look at our eyes instead of our bodies (it's a titty bar, not an eyeball bar, for Pete's sake. When I was working nude I used to occasionally yell "LOOK AT IT!!!" to the eye-gazing Lotharios), or to 'treat us like a lady' (please...) or to respect us for who we 'really' are (peddle that 'I see the real you' stuff at the church singles social). Not only are you the thousandth person who's told us that, you're the seven-hundred-and-fiftieth to assume they were the first. We just laugh about stuff like that. Don't tell a stripper how surprised you are at her elegance or intelligence. All that really says is that you had such a low opinion of her and everyone like her to begin with that even her being functional is a surprise. DO tell her what you like about her. DO chat with her, tell her jokes, ask her about her day. Chances are she's in the business because she's a people person. You'd kind of have to be, wouldn't you think?>>
Above you mentioned some of the things you want from your customers....you want them to be respectful, honest, etc. You want to be respected for who you 'really' are but if you're a fantasy then HOW can you be respected for who you are? You claim on your website that people should go to strip clubs before judging them to see that the strippers are really people too and that it is all innocent fun. However, above you wrote that, "you had such a low opinion of her and everyone like her to begin with that even her being functional is a surprise," the men who say these things have done what you have suggested. The men do go to the clubs, they see what is going on, and from their perspective they have a low opinion of strippers.
<<There is, however, no such thing as respecting her 'too much' to keep availing yourself of her services. When a customer gets to know a stripper and then suddenly tells her that he's grown to think too highly of her to get dances, it doesn't flatter or touch her. That customer immediately becomes a total disappointment, someone who has completely missed the point. Do you respect your waiter friend too much to let him serve you? Do you refuse to eat what your chef friend cooks? A customer who becomes a real friend never loses sight of the fact that she's got a job to do and that it isn't degrading to her at all. He appreciates and respects what she's good at. Even if he grows to like and admire other things about her he still remembers that she's a good dancer and appreciates watching her. She's your friend now, yes - your NAKED friend! How great is THAT?>>
The above isn’t respecting her “too much” because before there was NO respect to begin with. If it really was respect, you wouldn’t be complaining about it. He is telling you that he didn’t respect you before. You wanted the men to be honest, then when he is you tell him to not say that because it isn’t respectful. What is he supposed to do, lie to you because you don’t want to hear the truth? That is what you are asking him to do here. Also, for the man to get to know you, he had to have many return visits to the club. In other words, men that often go to strip clubs do not respect you and that is what they are telling you. He is saying, I was able to get lap dances from you until I got to know you (which made you no longer a fantasy to him) and since I don’t respect women that do this, I can no longer purchase lap dances from you. Then you are saying to him, don’t say that because I don’t want to hear the truth because it is too painful for me to hear. For some reason you have ignored his perspective (even when he directly states what he thinks) and decide that the men somehow always respected you (based on YOUR perspective which was wishful thinking). Being his naked friend must not be that great to him like you had once thought it might be!! How is it that you think that customers like that have “missed the point” and most of society (especially women) have “missed the point” but you are correct about everything? I think you are lying to yourself because for some reason you do not see others’ perspectives even when they say things directly to you.
Also, he is telling you that when you were a fantasy to him (because he didn’t know you) you were less than him and he didn’t think of you as a human being. He is saying that he did not think of you as a human being until he got to know you. Isn’t that how human nature works? It is easier for us to dismiss those starving children in Africa or other misfortunate people until we start seeing their photos on TV or actually meet them or hear about one of their tragic stories. How can you expect to not be dismissed simply because you are human when that is not how humans think or operate? Sorry but you are making an undoable demand.
<<The stripper doesn't lose her hearing (Stripper-pattern deafness) or become stupid (the tragic Top Down Syndrome) when she's onstage: her IQ doesn't go down when her clothes come off; whether yours does or not is another story. She can tell you're talking about her, and turning slightly away and saying things about her to your friends under your breath won't hide what you're doing. She's not a zoo exhibit. She's a person, and someone who is providing you with a very specialized service - one you should appreciate, because it's a privilege. If you don't like the way one dancer looks, that's no reason for you to stop treating her like a human being. Not being physically attractive to you is not a transgression. If another girl is more your type, go tell her so, and buy a dance.>>
Strippers are just an exhibit because that is the entire point of them. They aren’t there to judge you by your human qualities since you are only a fantasy to them but yet you seem offended. You are not a person to them or they would not treat you so disrespectfully. Their actions show their perspective of you. They are there to be physically attracted to the exhibits, if they don’t like what they see, they have the right to express that…..they are humans beings after all. Why don’t you understand that? Zoo animals are only there to be looked at (for the most part) and that is all strippers are good for, so great analogy. Once it goes further than just looking (after they get to know you) they no longer want lap dances as has been expressed to you by the men. Once you become real then you are no longer fake, it really is that simple.
