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Manipulation
All this talk in the Keeping a High Spending Regular thread, brought me to this question:
What practices do you consider to be over the line in terms of deception or manipulation?
And what things cause you to do them to a particular customer?
For example, when un-provoked, e.g. (he's an asshole and pushing for it), will you tell a guy you wanted to see him outside of the club?
In one particular case, I had a favorite (and she still would be if I could get to see her) who said she wanted to hang out and go to other clubs with me. I never asked. I took it on face value, but put no real stock in it. However, I did ask her if she still wanted to do it a couple of times after that and she never committed to a time, so I dropped it. No real emotion on my part. I wrote it off as SS. She was worth it as she was satisfying another need, that of counseling. So we went on for months after that until she left to go to another club. To me, this is a little over the line.
Don't go wild with dissecting my example.
>>>Sad<<<
:D
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Re:Manipulation
Hey Sad, how have you been? ;D I have kind of been MIA on this board lately...
So, to answer your question:
I think that if a guy comes into a club just for drinks and entertainment, and doesn't ask the girls out or anything, and a DANCER asks that GUY out, just to lead him on and get more money out of him, then that is over the line, and not cool.
On the other hand, if there is a customer who patronizes a club more or less to try to get the dancers to go out with him, have sex with him, whatever... then that is a whole different situation. If a customer comes into the club with the mindset "I am only going to spend money on these girls if I have a chance with them," the dancers' choices are to either lead the guy on a bit and make some decent money, or tell the guy that she isn't interested and to probably not make any money of the guy at all. When customers put a dancer in this situation, it really isn't fair to the dancer, who is only trying to do her job. So some dancers don't play fair either if they are stuck in this position.
I don't think that Emily is at all wrong for trying to get as much money from this guy as she can by leading him on a bit. HE is trying to get sex from her, which is not what strip clubs are for. I am sure that if Emily could get the same amount of money from this guy WITHOUT having to lead him on, then she wouldn't lead him on. I don't think that most dancers WANT to lead guys like this on, but they don't really have a choice if they want to make the big $$$. (this is just my opinion!)
For the record, I have never told a guy, unprovoked, that I would like to meet him outside of the club, just so I could make some extra money off him. However, there was one guy who had a reputation for going from one dancer to the next, asking out each one, and when they said "no" he would move on to the next one. So when he came to me, and told me that he wanted me to be his girlfriend, I told him I wasn't ready for a boyfriend. He told me that when I was ready, to keep him in mind, and I said okay. So week after week, he would come into my club, and ask if I was ready for a boyfriend, and I always said no. He asked me if I liked him as a boyfriend, and I said no, but that maybe someday I would (even though there was no way in hell I would EVER date this guy). He even asked me flat out if he had a chance in the world with me, and I would reply "Maybe someday." He didn't even spend THAT much money on me, like $40-60 every week when he came in. Finally, he got SO annoying, asking me the same stuff week after week...He starting telling me he loved me and talking about our future together :o, AND I starting going out with someone else. So he came in one night, asking me to go to a concert with him and I broke the news to him... I have a man, nothing is happening with us. He started crying hysterically in the club, and later told me that if he knew that we wouldn't end up together that he wouldnt have spent so much time and money on me. Well ya know what...tough shit. He shouldn't have been trying to pick up dancers while they are trying to WORK!! Now, I didn't WANT to lead him on, but look at all the money I would have lost out on if I told him right from the start, "Listen buddy, you are never gonna be my boyfriend, no way, no how..." I don't think what I did was over the top.
Oh, and another thing I would consider to be over the top is emotionally leading a customer on...telling him he must be your soulmate, that you are in love with him, etc...even if he does harass you to go out with him, dancers don't have to take things THAT far.
Allright, I hope this helped. ;)
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Re:Manipulation
I think that a dancer telling the customer that she'll do X activity for Y $$$ would be over the line if she has no intentions of going through with it. No matter what it is she said she'd do. Extras, dating outside the club, going to dinner, whatever. The above is over the line if customer asks for the activity and especially if the dancer offers it without being asked.
Now if the customer is being exceptionally rude, harassing, threatening, etc. then I think the dancer is probably justified in misleading the customer to take his money. However, I think that it's a dangerous situation for the dancer's reputation at the least and her life at the most if the guy gets really angry about being deceived. I don't generally reccomend it.
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Re:Manipulation
We are professional and as such, should not use manipulative tactics to make our money. I, personally, even believe that telling a guy who asks if I can meet him after work "MAYBE" is crossing the line. Unfortunately, according to the dictionary, this would be included in the definition of "hustle" which means "to convince by questionable means." Do some ladies do this? Of course. Do they need to do this to make a living? Absolutely not.
Manipulation is not part of our job. We are there for the "fantasy" of a lovely lady being by a man's side, on his lap, on stage, whatever...we do not get paid for crushing someone's hopes of getting laid that night. Our job is to entertain, be eye candy, and show a good time IN THE CLUB, and that's it!
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Re:Manipulation
Thanks for your responses and stories. I hope for more.
Hi Theresa!! I posted on Bella's thread that I missed her face, but not having really seen her, I've only missed a verbal/digital one. I hope to get back to actually see yours again sometime.
It does sound like you ladies have followed some reasonable standards about how to operate, which is not particularly predatory other than what should be the norm in a strip club.
However in much the same way that a customer, who does not go in with predatory ideas, allows the lines to become blurred (when looking at too much charm and beauty) and over time goes RIL, the lines are often blurred for the dancer and she unncecessarily applies predatory techniques.
There are girls and often whole groups in clubs which use this promise-type manipulation as a tool to make money, even when a customer really does not have any predatory intentions. What I am saying is that, although the asshole may deserve what he gets, what about the next customer?
I know that the sheer weight of dealing with so many customers who are trying to get you out of club and have sex with you is daunting. I think that sometimes the next guy gets the same treatment anyway.
My ex-ATF calculated, for what it's worth, that 75% of the customers she meets fell into the asshole category. True or not, that means that a girl has to be ready to treat the other 25% with reasonable candor and belief that he is not after more than just a dance.
Having listened to her stories for so many years in-club, out-of-club on the phone that, although some of the time she was applying the asshole principle to lots of players trying to even get stuff for a buck, there were other times when a guy was just loaded and it was possible to either promise something or over-charge. Bear in mind, she was someone I considered a good friend and we often overlook things for friends and just call it part of the business.
And in one club I had the promise-type thing tried by more than one dancer. I didn't ask.
But the next girl that tries that will probably get from me, name the time and the place, if you are serious and if you don't show, sayonara, just to prove a point. ;) 8)
>>>Sad<<<
:)
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Re:Manipulation
I'm pretty straight up, I don't present that I will do anything that I won't. If a customer asks me if I'll see him outside the club I say no. If he pushes it and tries to be manipulative or rude about it I will usually say, well, maybe, I don't know, and act like I've never done it before and I'm just nervous. He thinks if he keeps me in the champagne room talking about it long enough I'll agree to it and I think he gets what he deserves.
I do compliment my customers, "you've got incredible eyes," "mmm... you have really good hands," that type of thing. Younger guys tend to read too much into that and I'll usually give them a reality check, "honey I don't see customers outide of the club" or something like that.
Lena
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Re:Manipulation
I didn't spend all these years studying business for nothing....
All is fair in the game of love...including lies... PL's are just as often to spew out the equivalent....
My goals is profit maximization in a short time....but I also am opposed to propogating mysoginy just because I have used my feminine wiles to show someone a good time...mysogynists are the ASPD fuckers who want to damage and corrupt fresh young girls into doing something they are not ready to do....the balance is ooooooh so delicate and fundamantally undescribable....