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feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
i dont know about everyone else here, but since i have been dancing i have had more than my share of confrontations with other women who looked down on me because of my job and preceded to recite some no doubt prepaired argument about why what i do is WRONG and demeaning to women and disrespectful to MYSELF.
they label themselves as feminists but then continue to bash other WOMEN because of their occupation in adult entertainment or the fact that they have had plastic surgery (specifically implants) or something else.
i dont know why i made this thread - i just got into a bit of an argument with a holier than thou woman today who thinks she is better than i am because im a stripper and shes a prude.
im sure this thread has been made before but it would make me feel better to know what EXACTLY everyone else think a progressive "feminist" woman is supposed to think, and why women that look down on us because of our job think we are different than them or that what we do is BAD.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
well let's see, there are radical feminists (which vary widely within the label itself), liberal wefare feminists, marxist feminists, socialist feminists, multi-racial feminists.....I could keep going, but I'll spare you. I'm currently taking a class in gender and feminist studies so I'm fairly versed in this topic at the moment. It's not a femenists vs stripper thing at all. Many feminists, including myself, are for social reform ESPECIALLY in the sex industry. But, there are feminists that are completely opposed to the entire industry.
For example, Katherine McKinnen and Andrea Dworkin created and supported an ordinance for Minneapolis in the 1980's. They believed that "porn is the root of virtually all forms of exploitation and discrimination against women." Their proposed legislation would allow people to sue the makers, seller, distributers, etc of porn. It did not make the act of MAKING porn a CRIMINAL act, instead it was aimed at removing materials from public use (censoring it basically). It was actually PASSED but was vetoed by the mayor. In the end, it was deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
There was also a movement to define "pornography" and to ban what was deemed "pornography." The definition that was created (I'm sorry I don't remember by who) was the following: "[pornography is the] sexually explicit subordination of women, graphically depicted, whether in pictures or in words that also includes:
-women portrayed as sex objects that like humiliation
-women presented as dehumanized objects
-women as objects that enjoy rape
-women as objects that are physically hurt, tied up, etc
-contains women in postures of sexual sumbission
-body parts such as breasts, vagina, etc with women reduced to those body parts
-women presented as whores by nature
-women penetrated by objects or animals
-scenes of degredation, injury, torture, inferiority, etc which is made sexual"
This created a new functional definition of "pornography" which aimed its sights on banning material that portrayed women as dehumanized sex objects. The women believed this type of porn "creates and maintains civil inequality of the sexes"--it promotes contempt and fosters aggression, harms women's civil rights, damages women's ability to function in society (damages relationships, opportunities, etc), and ultimately "undermines women's equal exercise of rights to speech and action guaranteed to all citizens under the constitution and laws." However, if you're like one of my classmates, you're thinking "but the women in the porns are just ACTING! It's not really degrading the woman, she's getting paid and she doesn't HAVE to do it." But that's not their point. Their point is that if some corporate guy watches porn that degrades women, his sense of a woman's abilities and place in society is going to change. He is going to see women as sex objects, not people. Then, when you as a woman, apply for a job at his firm, he takes a look at your ass and tits and says, "sorry, but we've already filled the position" and he gives it to a man instead. You, the innocent woman applying for the job, is hurt by the degrading nature of porn.
Ok, now you're saying, but that's for PORN. Trust me, people with views like this don't discriminate that much. They see strippers as a form of porn, just like anything else that is "lewd and degrading."
What's my point. Well, I guess it's just that, when these people attack you for doing what you do, understand where they are coming from. True, some women that call themselves feminists are just snotty self-absorbed bitches and they really don't know what they are talking about and speak completely out of ignorance. But there ARE some highly educated women who have practical reasons for disliking the industry. However, those are usually the ones that say "it's not you, it's society." My advice, look up some information on radical feminism or any other form of feminism that doesn't focus on the sex industry as a problematic point. Then, when these awful women verbally assault you, you can counter with a completely educated answer, pointing out that there are many things other than stripping to blame for the inequality of the sexes. I suggest you tackle a subject that all women can relate to--motherhood--and look at the research that notes THAT as the source of all women's oppression (look up "Radical Libertarian Feminism," Shulamith Firestone's "The Dialectic of Sex," and Piercy's "Women on the Edge of Time.")
Go get 'em girls!!!!
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
Yea, people like this piss me off beyond belief, obviously (AMERICAN). Ha. I just wouldn't even give her the time of day. I say that, but when I am approached by it, I become consumed in arguments. I shouldn't give them the time of day, because chances of changing their closed minds are slim to none. Some do it in the name of feminism, but I consider myself more of a feminist than they will ever be. There will be women that don't like us or what we do... lots of them. Some of them are jealous at our independence and strength, I believe. Some are brain-washed. Each one has their own reasons to dislike us. I have just accepted the fact that they exist, and go on about my business. They aren't feminists by my definition.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I think a person can be highly 'educated' and still be ignorant as the day is long. Do they have any hard evidence that porn actually fosters aggression or violence toward women? Men saw women as sex objects LONG before porn came along. Men see women as sex objects whether or not the idea is 'promoted' in the sex industry. People are sexual beings. We are the only animal that mates just for the pleasure of it. In any society where its members mate for pleasure, those members are going to have innate tendencies to objectify others. Human nature cannot be changed. Women do it too!
>>Added: IMO the women who look down on us and lobby against the sex industry are just a bunch of jealous bitches who need to get laid!
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I think some other primates also mate for sexual pleasure, but I could be wrong, its been 8 years since I took physical anthroplogy.
Strip clubs/porn capitalize on the stratification between the sexes, not generate it. Many factors propogate sexual discrimination and objectification of women......I guess its important to see which part of the process this industry lies in. While not reinventing the wheel for gender equality, the strip club industry is more of a trend-reactive establishment.
I've already made my points about this subject in the other thread. I am not a feminist, I am a capitalist. I want to be able to use my sexuality to get what I want, but I don't want to be thrown away by society in 15 years when I am no longer as firm. Makes for quite a dilemna.....
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
:gasp: WHAT?! Men see women as sex objects?!!
:sarcastic:
Sorry, I couldn't help it.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I was not going to respond to this unitl I saw the word "everyone" in this
Quote:
what EXACTLY everyone else think a progressive "feminist" woman is supposed to think
In my interpretation a feminist is a self-confident, self actualized person, so a feminist can think whatever she damn well pleases. Sanctimonious hypocrisy is not the sole pervue of any group. Tell the thought-Nazi's to cram it where the lunar surface fails to reflect light.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
Andrea Dworkin is not a feminist. Dworkin hates capitalism intensely. She does not want to see a woman, or man for that matter, prosper economically. Her entire program is to deny women an avenue to participate successfully in the capitalist system.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
A feminist is someone who wants to see the social, political, and economic equality of women. I'm a feminist.
It strikes me that one of the benefits of feminism should be self-actualization. So if a woman feels fulfilled and makes good money at being a stripper, and exploiting the sex-objectification mentality of males, my idea of feminism is that she should be able to do that, within the limits of the law.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
Sexuality in this society is imbalance. North America doesn't know how to deal with sexuality and erotism. On one side you have prudism and on the other hard porn. Stripping is somewhere pass the midle being pulled towards porn more and more. Hard porn exists because of demands those demands exists because of sex being suppressed by prudism and some religious believes.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGirl link=board=27;threadid=8388;start=msg98658#msg9865 8 date=1082354810
"[pornography is the] sexually explicit subordination of women, graphically depicted, whether in pictures or in words that also includes:.....
thats a messed up definiton.... so by this definition gay porn is not actually porn... its just one guy with his penis up another guys butt huh?.... weird....
and the sexual pleasure thing....
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/pleasure.htm
i consiter myself an equalist... prolly because of all the mean feminists i have met.....
and oceana, well said...
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
SCGirl is right there are many different types of feminism. I am a self-identified feminist of color (many might call me a womanist) who wants to be a stripper. Does that mean that I am a hypocrite? Absolutely not, more often then not those women who are saying those things to you are practicing and relating to a type of feminism that pertains to there own perceptions of how life should be. They get off on exercising the same type of judgement towards women that men (the supposed enemy) have been doing before them. In other words they do not realize that other women live in ways that are completely different from themselves. Women are not monlithic. Meaning, that if I find some sort of power, any kind of power, in what I am doing including financial power, then it shouldn't be looked at as an assault against all women. I believe that women should be able to exercise their god(dess) given right to do what they feel is appropriate for their personal welfare. How we define "personal welfare" is up to the individual as long as I am not made to be held up to the same standards, because as I have said previously, women live different lives. I do not like someone else telling me what is wrong and right and I try not to judge others in the same way.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
to me a feminist is a woman that looks out for all women's rights. she shouldn't judge whether you can have rights by what you do for a living. feminism can mean many things, but I would doubt it means looking down on you b/c of your profession even though that is what she's doing. in a confrontation situation, it sounds like she's using the word "feminism" as a crutch b/c she is a prude and doesn't like what you're doing. if she's really a feminist, then all she should do is help create more rights for dancers. that's not what she's doing, so.....not a feminist and that's her way of making her opinion right. make sense?
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
Feminism has nothing to do with what these "women" are talking about. What they SHOULD be calling themselves are "Sexually Repressed Women". They are women who do not know how to express their sexuality, they have issues with other women doing it, and the only thing that they can think of to call themselves are "feminists". It's only an uneducated response on their behalf. But, as with most holier than thou doomsayers...everything you say to them, no matter how intelligent are words of the devil. I just let them spout off...laugh...and walk away with a little swing of the hips, toss of the hair, and the decency not to call them out in public.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I am a Feminist!
A lot of the strippers I know are strong confident women who demand equality.
I have found that the women who are against strippers have never been in a strip club!!! They have never enjoyed watching porn with their mates, have never lived out a dirty fantasy full of animal lust, have never felt the power or enjoyment that sexuality brings. Its all just natural!!
Men are bigger than us and they are different than us and its ok to acknowledge that as well. Their minds are also very visual and they enjoy naked women who want to have adult fun.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I used to be like those women you are talking about when I was a teenager but the funny thing is for as much as I preached about how sexist it was I secretly fantasied about it and wanted to be a dancer forever. Then I really got into Courtney Love and her music and read up on her alot and she used to be a stripper and suddenly feminist and stripper(or adult entertainer) did not have to be seperate I realised. In fact I think dancers are truly "feminists" and the women who bitch about it are no diffrent that militant right-wing christians who tell us how to run our lives. Those women I think who are the most adamant about being against it secretly are jelouse and they wish they had enough guts to do it themselves. It is pretty sad in a way that they don't have enough confidence to realise that they really envy the strippers and are hiding behind this false argument of "feminisim". Just remember that whenever you get in a confrontation again. They secretly envy us very much. :D
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ami link=board=27;threadid=8388;start=msg98786#msg9878 6 date=1082395598
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGirl link=board=27;threadid=8388;start=msg98658#msg9865 8 date=1082354810
"[pornography is the] sexually explicit subordination of women, graphically depicted, whether in pictures or in words that also includes:.....
thats a messed up definiton.... so by this definition gay porn is not actually porn... its just one guy with his penis up another guys butt huh?.... weird....
Yep, you got it! We fought about this whole subject during one of my classes....people got so angry. I think the thing that is tough to wrap your head around is that they wanted to CHANGE the definition of pornography. By changing it to include things that were ONLY derogatory to WOMEN, they felt that they would have a more stable ground for banning it. You're right, by their definition, what we call "gay porn" is not "porn" at all....it may be lewd or obscene or "adult," but it's not "porn" and, therefore, doesn't have to be banned. Don't ask me why they felt the need to neglect gay porn, I don't know, I asked the same question myself. The whole thing seems pretty damn lame to me!
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
OK. I have to add this:
Feminists are people who claim that women should be in control of their life and in control of their choices...and possible equall to men in every situation...Right?
Women in stripclubs are ultimetly controling men by using their sexuality to control and manupulate men.We (women) are in control!!! And we get payed more than men in this job so we are the ultimate feminists. To me anyway.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
"Strippers" are some of the smartest women on the planet. Ignorance can be cured, but, stupidity can't. Humans are simply ignorant entities. We try to teach other humans about our choice. It is a choice. Some people don't realize this, we like our job (for the most part). We are actresses, we are fantasies, we are leaders, and we are who we are. Humans! Just like the housewife (that many of us are) next door with her 2 dogs and perfect "yuppie" life. Before we became that we were the same. We will be the same biologicaly for the rest or our lives. The point of life is to survive and learn. So look past the people who pass judgement and look on to that man sitting over there with his scotch and tonic, and, go take his money. Stop worrying about others opinions. We all got 'em and they all stink.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
No time to read all this right now (but I will later).
For me, I have more identities than "woman." and I feel oppressions are related. So, while stripping may very well be degrading to me as a woman sometimes, it is almost always EMPOWERING AS FUCK to me as a working-class woman.
more later!
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I've often wondered what "Feminist Studies" is or
"Black Studies" for that matter. from everything I've seen and heard from "professors" in these academic
fields they are mostly ADVOCACY programs as opposed
to something really SCHOLASTIC.
Now all you "feminists" out there who can't wait to rip
me a new one for posting the above just indulge me
for a few moments. There are certainly many History;
Sociology; Political Science and other fields that can
adequately address such things as historical oppression
of women; Blacks ; Asians and other groups. They have
sound research and scholarship to support the theses
presented. My problem with "advocacy scholars" like
Leonard Jeffries with his "melanin makes Black people
smarter" bilge or Dworkin & McKinnon with their "all
heterosexual sex is RAPE" garbage is that there is
NO EVIDENCE to support these theories. Melanin is
skin coloring and has nothing to do with brain function.
If Dworkin & McKinnon had their way and things were
carried to their logical extreme all procreation would
occur via artificial insemination to avoid any risk of
"trauma" or feelings of "subjugation" for the woman.
Remember those wonderful gals: Women Against
Pornography? Initially I was supportive of their efforts
to educate women about some of the horrible extreme
garbage out there in the Porn World. I personally
wouldn't miss graphic depictions of violence and
degradation towards women. To me, a lot of that
stuff had all the allure of a six car pile-up on an autobahn. Ah, but that wasn't enough for these
extremist nuts- they wanted to ban Playboy; PLAYGIRL;
Cosmo; Calvin Klein Ads and a host of other things
remotely suggestive of romance and (God Help Us!)
mutually enjoyable heterosexual sex.
At the root of most of this feminist rage against strippers and other sex workers is JEALOUSY. Andrea
Dworkin has NEVER promoted a lusty thought in the
mind of a "healthy" man with good eyesight in her life!!!
I assume that her appearance has a lot to do with
all the ANGER she has.Because that is the root of her
ideology- ANGER towards men.Rather than do something about how fat & unattractive SHE is- she attacks attractive women and the men who
love them.
Take it for what it's worth; just one man's OPINION.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
http://www.geocities.com/alysabethc/...tstripper.html
This woman beautifully articulates so many of the things that many of the posts seem to be expressing. I encourage you to check out this section (and the rest of) her site.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
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Originally Posted by Zofia link=board=27;threadid=8388;start=msg98736#msg9873 6 date=1082384272
Andrea Dworkin is not a feminist. Dworkin hates capitalism intensely. She does not want to see a woman, or man for that matter, prosper economically. Her entire program is to deny women an avenue to participate successfully in the capitalist system.
capitalism doesn't actually equal economic security. as i learn more and more about capitalism i'm not a big fan of it myself, but unfortunately there is not too much i can do about it as of now.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
I am a feminist, proud to call myself one, but feminism has been turned into such a dirty word in the last 2 decades. Women have been brainwashed to believe that we all hate men, don't shave our legs, etc...
I ask women who say "oh, I'M not a feminist!"..."Do you believe you should be able to purse any education or career path you wish AND be paid the same as men for it?" The answer is ALWAYS a resounding yes. Then I tell them, "sorry, but you sound like a feminist to me!"
I was a women's studies minor in college and man, the torrent of verbal abuse that I endured.
One a final note, I don't believe that women who don't agree with what we do are necessarily repressed. You wanna do it with the lights off missionary? Fine, I'm a feminist, I'll let you choose to do that. Anything between consenting adults is fine with me. I consent to dance naked for money in front of strangers and they obviously consent to being there.
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Re:feminists VS strippers (and other adult entertainers)
A.n.a.l.a.- You say that:" capitalism doesn't actually
equal economic security" and that you are "not a big
fan of it". What economic system or model do YOU
think could possibly work any better? Communism,
socialism and American Democratic Liberalism are ALL
proven failures in generating wealth and upward mobility. India and China have the turbo-charged economies that they do today because they abandoned
socialism and Marxism respectively.
What other economic system even comes close to
the Free Market in promoting individuality, creativity and
innovation by rewarding effort & achievement and by
punishing inefficiency and failure. That's the part that
most critics of capitalism do not like- that it punishes
failure, inefficiency, mediocrity and lack of effort. There
are still a few places with marxist economies and they are all doing very poorly. Even the European social
democracies with "womb to the tomb" social safety nets
are going broke. The more successful European
economies such as Ireland, Spain & Portugal are also the most capitalistic.
Nina Daisy- I fully support equal opportunity and equal pay for equal work ( to me it means that men & women
doing the same job should be paid the same).I even support the right of military women to serve in combat
if they want to ( Some of the BEST Soviet snipers in
WWII were women; so were some of their best fighter
pilots). I just don't understand the "need" for Women's
or Gender Studies. Is there such a thing as a "feminist"
view of History? Yes, and so long as it is not factually
delinquent and does not substitute advocacy for sound
research and scholarship, I don't have a problem with it. Same thing for "feminist" Economics, Poli. Sci., Soc.
and what have you. So if this is what is meant by
"Feminist Studies" then it's certainly o.k. with me.But
what do graduates who majored in Feminist Studies
or Black Studies expect such a degree to really mean
beyond the world of Academia?
As for people that disagree with what you or I think;
that's fine.My problem with such folks starts when they want to IMPOSE their views on the rest of us.