Ryan, has it ever occured to you that we may be both? We give alot to other countries, Ryan.Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAN link=board=1;threadid=9179;start=msg109075#msg1090 75 date=1084500097
Printable View
Ryan, has it ever occured to you that we may be both? We give alot to other countries, Ryan.Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAN link=board=1;threadid=9179;start=msg109075#msg1090 75 date=1084500097
...............
Our president is a wannabe cowboy who has lied to our country, sent us to war under false pretenses for false reasons, he had his own personal vendetta against saddam because saddam tried to assasinate bush's father while he was in office, he is causing us to lose more and more of our boys everyday and we all know that osama / afghanistan was the direct threat ...NOT IRAQ. unless of course you are refering to the" threat of not having control over iraq's oil and the $$ seen to be made off of it"....in that sense it was a threat...TO THE POCKETS OF OUR GOV. It all boils down to the fact that bush tried to make saddam appear as the direct threat and that he had direct ties to 9-11 (when it was clearly osama and al-quaida sp?) he sent our boys over there to die for oil and he lied to the american people as well as to congress in order for them / us to support his war for oil. it makes me sick and as a military spouse i can not wait for him to get voted out of office!!!!!!!!!! having him in office is only a direct threat to the safety of our boys who are or will become soldiers.
I have to whole heartedly agree with Vixen's post above
WOW, tigerlily, thanx....for once someone who doesnt hate me!! :)
p.s. i did ballet for 12 yrs.
were u in NYC?
....................
Not that I disagree myself, but this is the very mindset that instills rage amongst the Muslim world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren link=board=1;threadid=9179;start=msg109138#msg1091 38 date=1084509746
For those unfamiliar with the concept of Sharia, I urge you to do a Google on the term and do a little study. This is the basis rule of law/life based on the fundamentals of the Koran. It rules the worship practices, laws and justices of everyday life to those devout in this religion.
Sharia cannot exist with success in a westernized or modern society for the simple fact that the discipline of a society strictly expected to worship 7 times during the day and have fairly barbaric forms of justice are incompatible with such methods. Even the most devout Muslims that move to the USA constantly find themselves in breach of Sharia rules just by living in our world.
By Sharia rule, a woman having sex out of wedlock is buried up to her neck in sand and pummeled in the head with rocks/boulders until she is dead. A thief has his hand cut off. Murderers or those that live/speak against Allah are beheaded. Caning and lashings are punishments for lesser crimes. This kind of punishment is looked to as necessary in order to enforce the strict rules required by the Muslim faith. By Sharia, the allowance of blasphemist behavior calls for the enforcement of punishment, so by this set of standards to allow this makes the witness as guilty as the participant if he/she doesnt outcry for the punishments to be administered.
Some countries court systems are ruled by Sharia doctrines. Jordan has courts rule female stonings, dismemberment and decapitations to citizens living within. The Taliban was trying to form this structured Muslim culture in Afghanistan. More devout/extremist Arabs around the world want the same for Saudi Arabia and Iraq. The mere existence of westernized presence threatens this as it "leads astray" men and women of Allah. They see women without burkas on TV in Iraq and this alone instills anger against Americans for their evil influence, and by their mindset condemning their brothers/sisters to hell for breaking Islamic rules.
This is also why Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg tapes dont have the same kind of reaction amongst Muslims. They see it as Sharia justice, and chances are good they either know or have been related to fellow Muslims that have fallen to the same punishments. By their law, the inequities of the individual are cleared by the punishment. It's their form of repentence. This is also why they didn't care for Sadamm Hussein with his industry and politics and a more modern Baghdad, but look at the American way of life as equally brutal as it would lead to downfall of Sharia law and hold a lot of Muslims accountable for punishment.
What we see as in increase in quality of life, they see as a sacrilege of temptation and leading their own down the path of damnation and cruel punishment for repentence.
Lastly, surely many of the fundamental Islam/Sharia doctrines have been twisted a bit over the years. Originally, 'jihad' wasnt so much a Holy War, but instead used to describe the process of converting non-believers into believers. When clerics and muslim-state envelopes a region, Sharia justice over time "converts" the inhabitants into submission. While it appears like a war (i.e. lots of people captured, killed, dismembered, stoned, etc.etc.) it's not looked at as a war by those of this mindset. It's a purification by their doctrines, and leads those into the light of salvation.
I'm not justifying this religious right, but instead simply hope it will inspire more Americans to research/dig into the mindsets of those people overseas. I have two very close friends in Iran, as well as several in Pakistan. While they earnestly believe I should be caned/lashed for not dropping to my knees and worshipping Allah several times a day, from their point of view it's for my betterment.. much the same way we feel they should be more open and tolerant and give up violence and capital punishment of those around them. There is no real answer since the basic fundamentals are in conflict.
.................
PC.. Thank you for your post. It does make a lot of sense to me. I can't say that I'll do research on it, because chances are I won't. I've been in a really foul mood the past few days, and understanding why they do the things that they do is the last thing I want to attempt. Nothing justifies what they've done, and what they plan to do. I know that in their minds, warped as they may be, they think it's right. But I do thank you for shedding some light on this. Maybe when I cheer up a little I will do some research on that. But yesterday, I was looking up websites. Crazy as it may seem, I did want to understand some things. I came across a website that keeps a listing of terrorist-linked sites. I was shocked to see how many there were, and even how many Yahoo Groups that are out there supporting Terrorist groups. I'm posting the link below, in case anyone else is interested...
Vegas, I have to say that I also agree with your post. It was very well said. I wish a quick and safe return for your hubby. My thoughts are with you.
Unfortunately, since we have been in Iraq, Osama has been put on the "back burner", and I think it's ridiculous. Now, there are countless Terrorist groups, other than al-Qaida springing up everywhere. Some are not as prominent as al-Qaida, of course, but they are still a threat.
I'm rambling, but I hope I've made some sense LOL. I'm off to bed. Night Night!
:sleep:
I'm totally with you there, Rhiannon. I don't think any amount of texts/scriptures or whatnot can justify the brutal taking of another's life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiannon link=board=1;threadid=9179;start=msg109196#msg1091 96 date=1084523681
To put a little more perspective into things.. the photos of the Iraqi Prisoners that caused unrest in the Arab world, had there been some distinct differences in those photos such as:
- The prisoners were clothed (nudity is a MASSIVE sacrilege by their doctrines)
- There were no reports of rape (a woman being raped is often condemned to death by stoning as it's sex out of wedlock)
- Instead of humiliation they depicted lashings, floggings, beheadings and dismemberments.
- The captions listed alleged Hadd offenses against the prisoners- even if unproven or with zero evidence.
Had all of the above been the case with those photos, the Arab community would have instead been of a "We LOVE you Americans! You guys are GREAT!" reception. They would also expect the Americans to be dancing and singing gleefully to Allah around the corpses.
This is how the Saudi's remain in control as they rule and dictate almost entirely by Sharia, and their legal/justice system works off the Hadd offenses (sex out of wedlock, clothing/modesty, consumption of alcohol, theft, etc.etc.) and dishes out the correct punishments as laid out by Mohammad (stoning, beheading, dismemberment, floggings/lashings, etc.etc.). There is no "trial" process by pure Sharia. Instead, they have another Hadd offense of "false accusation" that carries an equal punishment if it's ever discovered. Once accused, the punishment is administered.. if the accuser is later discovered to have been lieing, punishment is then administered to them.
Countries like Pakistan, Syria and formerly Iraq lose face by the devout as they have some courts that may list Hadd offenses as their laws, but do not administer the proper Hadd punishments by substituting prison time in jails. Denying an accused the Hadd punishment of being beheaded, beaten or tortured is looked at 10x worse than keeping them locked up behind bars by many Muslims. Americans can't understand why the Pakistani's were so repulsed by freeing the Afghanistan people from the Taliban.. when they look at it as something entirely different. The same bitter hatred is looking at what we will to do Iraq... we'll turn it into another Kuwait with courts, laws and prisons.
And tieing back to what Vegasvixen said- yes, the current administration has to get our men and women out of Iraq, but how we exit the that country could determine how much hell we have to pay for centuries following. It's against the USA's nature to leave that country in a state of Sharia rule by clerics, where women have no rights and Hadd punishments are carried out without trials. Unfortunately, that IS the only way to leave that country (which will in-turn breed more terrorist factions that wish to "convert" the USA to a state of Sharia) .. so it's lose-lose. If we do put a government in place that is fair and 'westernized', it's only going to worsen our condition. As so few Americans (presidential administrations included) understand their mindset and philosophies, the more we do to try and "help" a people, the more we wind up pissing them off and sealing certain future harm/doom.
The answer really becomes tyranny... which is a less than popular way to look at exactly what we are doing to Afghanistan and Iraq. Overthrow, occupy, then put what we consider a humane government establishment in place- which then breeds further hatred amongst the Arab world. Every time we've simply "allowed" a more Sharia-based rule in a region, the liberals and Euro nations label us as 'barbaric' for allowing such monstrocities to take place.. and do nothing about it. So it's lose-lose.
thank you Polecat for the formal research you've presented explaining why islamic fundamentalist (i.e. predominantly Shiite) society thinks and acts the way it does. In my own mind, this is indeed just like something out of the middle ages !
On the other hand, there is the alternate path of "modern" muslims (i.e. predominantly Sunni), of which Kuwait, Qatar and UAE are prime examples. As to the vast gulf between these two societies, I'd point out islamic fundamentalists forcing women to wear burkhas and preventing them from obtaining an education, versus the post 1991 postwar images of young Kuwaiti women wearing bikini tops while tooling around in their Mercedes Benz convertibles !
On a personal level, "western society" has a lot of desireable things to offer to young muslims, things that they would readily embrace were it not for fear of extreme punishment by islamic fundamentalist justice. IMHO this is the real threat which the US and UK pose to the middle east ... potentially causing the potential extinction of islamic fundamentalism from within by showing young muslims that there are other alternative ways of life. This is an underlying reason that islamic extremists are willing to fight to the death - in their own minds our very existence and example is a huge threat to their future.
I think Mel has hit on something with the 'mind of the youth' comments. When I was on study abroad in London I was surrounded by students from all over the world, MANY of whom were Middle Easterners. The kids were ALL about studying in London because of the obvious freedoms afforded them in the process. They used it as a means of escaping the (according to them) unreasonably strict lifestyle imposed on them at home. So I have to agree that westerners would be seen as a threat by fundamentalists over there because glimpses of our lifestyle infiltrates even the most remote parts of the world, and of course the younguns want to participate! THAT would be the biggest threat of all to fundamentalists, IMO. ....Well that and the mere existance if Israel :biggrin:
Absolutely right Melonie and Bridgette.. the younger generation is very apt to adapt (and actually desires!) transformation into a more modern culture.
One of my workmates spent his last vacation in the Gaza Strip and commented on just how eager the Palestinian youth are towards the way of life their neighboring Israeli's enjoy. It's the elders that discourage their dreams of living in a more open and tolerant/modern society, and also one of the bigger sources of hatred against the "influence" of exposure this causes.
One friend of mine in Pakistan is also curbed mainly by his elders/family as he'd love to travel and study abroad, but it's against the ways of his parents and grandparents. And a local Muslim friend of mine from India.. he still returns once a year to visit his family back home and is constantly belittled for his attempts to smuggle toilet paper in his suitcases as they still subscribe to the "hand and a bowl of water" method of daily life... he's constantly reminded by them how living in the West has corrupted his fundamental values.
And yes, more modern and puritan Muslims have no real support for Al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations. They believe in what they stand for (i.e. an unmolested Muslim state) but find their methods sacrilege and abominable to their religion. Not all Muslims have expansionary goals, but it seems uniform that most would prefer to evolve and change on their own rather than have western ideals forced upon them. This is the main reason why, although unsupportive of terrorist groups and their methods, they fail to take action within to halt them... at least that's my understanding of it all anyways.
Brittany,"
the woman that has done my hair for MANY years now is an Iranian woman, she lived there when it was still called Persia"
DAMN! How old is she?
There is a huge differance between taking explicit pictures of someone and cuttinng off someones head. One is wrong and one is just pure evil. Id rather have pictures taken of me...... If we dropped a bomb on that country I dont think anyone would really care- it would be a favor, I consider these people less than human.
I have read up on the culture and Sharia. The whole thing truly scares me. I guess that's why I am so glad to be in a land that is free.
My grandmother speaks of this war and compares it to Vietnam (before my time and many of those here). I think some of us have forgotten why we are even over there to begin with?
Rhiannnon: I completely agree with you. My sympathy for those people officially ran out as well. I used to feel sorry for the children and the women who were under Saddam's rule.
I have friends that have come home to report that its senseless to be there-they don't want help. Let them kill themselves is what I say. We have our own issues and battles to deal with on our home fronts.
In a way, we have gone to war with the world, because everyone has a different position on this issue. No one seems to agree. So agree to disagree might be a better solution.
I understand the biblical history of this country but quite honestly, I think its high time to bring our men and women home and let these MOFO's blow eachother up.
Can you believe these asshats? I'm so glad they got a real good laugh out of this situation. The pricks.
DJs Fired for Mocking Berg's Death
By JULIA SILVERMAN, AP
PORTLAND, Ore. (May 14) - Two disc jockeys were fired after playing an audiotape of the beheading of American Nick Berg by Iraqi militants, and cracking jokes about the grisly death.
Listeners called the radio station to complain after hearing Berg's bloodcurdling screams in the broadcast of the tape, followed by the DJs laughing and playing musical accompaniments.
The DJs, known as Marconi and Tiny, were fired Thursday from their morning show perch at Portland's KNRK-FM, which is owned by Pennsylvania-based Entercom Communications Corp. Their producer, known as "Nickie J," also was fired. Station employees would not release the legal names of the three.
"It was so over-the-top that I don't know that there is any logical, appropriate way to attempt to spin it," Clark Ryan, Entercom's vice president for FM operations in Portland, said Friday.
The station's manager sent an apology out over the airwaves, saying: "The actions of the KNRK news morning show were insensitive, inappropriate and repulsive. On behalf of Entercom Portland and KNRK, I apologize to our listeners."
Immediately after the broadcast, the DJs were suspended, and then fired the next day, Ryan said. The station specializes in new rock and alternative music from the 1990s.
One of the DJs apologized on his Web site, posting a statement that read, "I have become so numb to the horrific things that happen in this world that I sometimes forget there are still people who feel. I in no way meant to be insensitive to anyone. My comments on this were inapropriate (sic)."
Berg's headless body was found Saturday in Baghdad. Three days later, a videotape posted on an al-Qaida-related Web site showed him decapitated by hooded, armed men.
05/14/04 18:56 EDT
There's light years of difference in regard to reason and justification for the Vietnam War versus having to chase islamic fanatics into Afghanistan, Iraq, and whatever other muslim countries these fanatics hide in and/or draw support from. The North Vietnamese did not kill nearly 3000 innocent civilians on US soil !!!!! That act CANNOT be given a pass, because IMHO the ONLY thing that has successfully prevented more civilians being killed on US soil is the fact that the islamic fanatics are being kept too busy fighting in the middle east !Quote:
My grandmother speaks of this war and compares it to Vietnam (before my time and many of those here). I think some of us have forgotten why we are even over there to begin with?
If these MOFO's would be content to blow each others up, I'd agree with you in a second. Unfortunately, they all view Israel as their #1 enemy, and view any country who supports Israel as their #2 enemy, and view any country whose society is contrary to islamic principles (i.e. individual freedoms, equality for women, separation of church and state/authority) as their #3 enemy. If US troops weren't on their ass in the middle east, they would again be on OUR ass right here in the USA.Quote:
I understand the biblical history of this country but quite honestly, I think its high time to bring our men and women home and let these MOFO's blow eachother up.
.........................
I agree Lexi. What they did is equivalent to joking about the nearly 3000 other US civilians killed in the World Trade Center attack, apparently carried out on the orders of the very same group of Islamic fanatics.
thanks everyone , I was wrong the bottom line isnt what i said before...it is that we HAVE TO BRING OUR BOYS / GIRLS HOME NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there is nothing worth salvaging over there, unless of course you are the bush family from TEXAS which means you have ALOT of monetary interest in oil...well guess what fuckers, no amount of money is worth my husband's life or anyone elses!!!!!!!! (sorry had to yell) we have to bring our boy's home asap and the only way that will happen is to get bush the fuck out of there NOW!!!!! excuse my french.
meant boys, not boy's.
Amen !Quote:
Originally Posted by vegasvixen1 link=board=1;threadid=9179;start=msg109657#msg1096 57 date=1084648976
I'm with you on that, VegasVixen! We need to get out ASAP, and go after the real culprits, al Qaeda.
Instead of diverting the American public's attention from the failure to apprehend or kill the people REALLY responsible for 911. It wasn't Iraqi kids who did it, much as I'd love to personally kill the kid kicking the charred corpse in Fallujah.
Of course, since we ARE over there now, as invaders and unwelcome occupation forces, all kinds of Iraqi kids will be signing up to blow up and behead Americans, and all the bad press we are getting will bring lots more from surrounding countries.
Rooting out and killing or capturing al Queda members would discourage further acts of terrorism against the USA. Invading and occupying Iraq for the wrong reasons will seriously provoke them and their emulators to do more of the same.
All our humanitarian propaganda doesn't fool anyone but a certain segment of the American populace. There are any number of brutal, repressive regimes to choose from, past and present. Nonetheless we keep choosing Iraq. North Korea's weapons of mass destruction and inhuman treatment of its own citizens are never mentioned anymore.
It's quite simple--they have no oil...
If they did, we'd be there instead of Iraq.
I also think we need to get out of there. Bush went about this all wrong :no:
I do support democracy and our military. I am proud to say my Dad was a Lt Col. Us Army with 3 Purple Hearts. He even worked in the Pentegon for awhile. He told me about first hand accounts of liberating countries. That's not what I see going on in Iraq :'(
And what about Liberia- now that's another very sad situation and Bush didn't do squat to help them. Oh he made out like he was going to but then didn't even send Our Boys onshore and turned them around and forgot all about his promises to help there. I mean wtf ??? We can invade by air countries that often have nuclar and mass destruction weapons but we couldn't get into Liberia ::)
We didn't help them because we wouldn't get much ( if any ) profit out of that situation >:( Not that I am into invading countries but man, can Bush's motives be any more transparent .
:banghead:
Tigerlilly now getting off the :soapbox: LOL!