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Employees or Independent Contractors
I posted this on the SCJ (or blue side) site yesterday and several of the responders suggested that I post it here as well:
We had an interesting thread going on the board for my local SC. It started with a complaint about the increase in fees for the dancers. It rapidly evolved into a discussion of labor law and the classification of dancers as independent contractors. The moderator (also SC photographer) either chose to or was directed to by owners or management to delete the entire thread. So my question would be: are all dancers/strippers classified as independent contractors or are some employees of the club? Are there advantages or disadvanteges to either classification? Is the independent contractor classification ever accurate? It occurred to me that the primary reason for the classification was to avoid providing benefits and as a shield to potential liabilities. What do you think?
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Re:Employees or Independent Contractors
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Originally Posted by Silverback link=board=27;threadid=9848;start=msg118254#msg118 254 date=1086455528
I posted this on the SCJ (or blue side) site yesterday and several of the responders suggested that I post it here as well:
We had an interesting thread going on the board for my local SC. It started with a complaint about the increase in fees for the dancers. It rapidly evolved into a discussion of labor law and the classification of dancers as independent contractors. The moderator (also SC photographer) either chose to or was directed to by owners or management to delete the entire thread. So my question would be: are all dancers/strippers classified as independent contractors or are some employees of the club? Are there advantages or disadvanteges to either classification? Is the independent contractor classification ever accurate? It occurred to me that the primary reason for the classification was to avoid providing benefits and as a shield to potential liabilities. What do you think?
I think the best thing an entertainer can do for their own career is to become a sub contractor.
I know it would mean lower income to a certain degree,but its not until the females in this industry become legal,then and only then will they have a say in how this industry runs.
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i'd be interested in the replys here too...as the terms employee vs. independant contractor...have come up in my PSO research...on more than one occasion...
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According to a lawsuit I found while doing research for a class, an employee is classified as (roughly) the lifeblood of the organization. That, the organization cannot run without. This particular lawsuit, I believe in Seattle, was concerning women who wanted their fees returned to them as they did not consider themselves independent contractors but actual employees. They won the suit.
Last night, I found out that my club fees went from 30 to 40 dollars! I am sort of sick of this. The first 100 or so of my money basically goes back to the club - fees, dj, etc. I needed to make at least 750 for my mortgage. I made over 8 walked with 720. I have to go back tonight. I am not happy. What are the fees for anyway? My manager calls it rent. Rent my ass!
If I work earlier, it only costs me 20. I guess I will have to take this option. And, someone almost hit my car in the parking lot! Some drunk ass in a big ole' suv was backing out, heading right for my car as I watched in horror. Got stiffed for one dance - it was the night from hell!
Anyway, some dancers have formed unions to combat rights for us. Does anyone have any info concerning this? I danced one night for a lawyer from San Francisco who was representing a group of women. Ring a bell to anyone?
Sorry, I am grouchy today - not enough $$ or sleep.
Dallas
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Re:Employees or Independent Contractors
It's actually a really complicated question, and largely depends on where you are dancing. It used to be that all dancers were considered independent contractors. This way the clubs wouldn't have to pay unemployment insurance, social security, benefits, etc, and could still collect all those handy dandy fees. Due to a few lawsuits and some top down changes from various state legislatures, some dancers are classed as employees proper, but there again you may run into troubles because you give up a certain amount of autonomy. For more information I'd suggest you check out the Exotic Dancers Alliance (), or for a legal treatment of the question try Fischer 1996 (Law and Inequality v. 14, pg. 521-554). Personally, I think unionization would go a long way to giving the dancers some of the power, but the big problem with doing it like normal unions is that dancers as a group are highly mobile and often don't stay at the same club for a long enough time to make it worth the trouble of organization. Realistically, it makes the most sense to institute a nationwide trade group for all strippers, which could enforce its own rules in the same way a union does, without the infinite hassles of organizing every single sc in the country. Protection for EVERY dancer should be the call. If such a group decided to say that bottoms would stay on everywhere, for instance, they could literally shut down any club that didn't conform. It could solve the slippery slope of escalating expectations quite nicely. Just my two cents....
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DEVOTEE - nice. Thanks for the info.
Big D
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It definitely depends on where you are...up here we are self-employed independent contractors (because we change clubs every week). So far as I can tell, this is a huge plus when it comes to taxes- we would not be allowed even half of our deductions were we employees. We are not covered by Worker's comp. and don't get automatic extended health benefits, but there are programs we can easily opt into and pay our monthly premiums ourselves.
This job wouldn't be worth it to me if I didn't have the shelter of being self-employed.
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It depends.
I would say I would class myself more of an employee at one of the clubs here on the Gold Coast due to the way they treat the dancers.
Yet legally I'm self-employed owner/operator.... or independant contractor.
I prefer this as it allows me freedom more than being an employee does. It also allows me a little more in re: tax.
Personally I would like to stay self-employed.
I would only be an employee of a club if they paid $60 per hour (so I would get something decent back after taxes) and I kept, at least, half of all my tips. I really doubt there would be any club willing to do that !
Oo! I just wanted to add that if I changed my business structure to that of a company/trust... I would be an employee (as well as director) of the company... that's the only other case where I would be an employee.
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My friends and I have been muling over this topic for years now. As a result of so many "strippers" not realizing this is actually a job and not a free for all, we have been trying to figure out the best way to operate a club with employees instead of independant contractors.
My thoughts are if you draw a paycheck(possibly investing a percentage of your tips into that paycheck and keeping the rest on the side), get health insurance and workmans comp etc then more than likely you would treat this like the job that it is(and show up when scheduled etc). If I were to open a club I think I would look into offering it to a select few(say my house girls) and see how it goes...any ideas on the subject?
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I danced topless at a club called Sanctuary as an employee. I danced pt, had a shift that i had to DO, was payed by the hour, not allowed to accept tips, benefits package after 3 months of employment.
I hated it. I had to dance on a balcony type thing, and could not accept tips...sucked. I needed a drink of water alot, and could not leave to get a drink often enough. They worked the piss out of you.
The club was closed due to a dj getting shot.
Pure Platinum, ic. Phone sex, ic. I will not be an employee to any company in the adult industry. They will work the piss out of you if you let them as an employee. Being an ic does give you more freedom, you just have to know the law. It differs for employees and ic's.
Dunno, there are pros and cons. I had ALL the cons.
Pamela.
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This subject is the reason I got banned from the club I am in now (I was banned for two years and they just let me come back last week). I bought that documentary about "Live Nude Girl Unite!" and asked a few of the girls if they wanted to watch it and talk about it. Some told management that I was starting a union!
I think there are pro's and cons to a union, but as devotee said, I think the country should do something about it as a whole. I think they should uphold the laws of an IC (at least here in Texas, which I have looked up in the past and they state that as an IC I should not have to share my tips with the club among other things)
I don't understand sometimes why clubs get away with it, although I do know it takes more than one person to stand up for our rights, and honestly, none of the girls here even think about it but me.
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oh and to add, when all this went down at my club, I had been forced into quitting because management tried to fine me 150 bucks for BREAKING MY BACK onstage and not being able to dance. (I really did break a vert in my back)
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Re:Employees or Independent Contractors
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Originally Posted by Silverback link=board=27;threadid=9848;start=msg118254#msg118 254 date=1086455528
I posted this on the SCJ (or blue side) site yesterday
Here was my response on the blue site, and I'll stick to it:
Most of the situations I've seen invoved dancers as "independent contractors" when they are not independent.
If I had the money, which I don't, or the desire, which I don't, to invest in ownership of a club, one of the main deterrents would be what I see as the horrible liability that clubs put themselves in with labor law. Someday, workers comp or dept of labor or the IRS (or all of them) will take a massive look and say, "You call them contractors, but they're actually employees. You owe us for work comp premiums, unemployment taxes, and employee withholdings. Did we mention penalties and interest?"
If someone's independent, they're independent. You can't give them set hours, you can't prohibit them from working other places, you can't impose the types of fines that they do, and so on. Well, you can, but then you're pasting a target on your ass and telling the goverment, "Fire when ready."
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I do not think unionization is the way to go, not even nationwide. #1 Clubowners will always find a way to screw us, and #2 Union leaders would quickly become the new nazis forcing their ideas of what's right on the rest of us. It would be nice to have a national union covering ALL of us, which we could use to lobby politically, set up group discounted insurance and other benefits, and help keep clubowners in line, but IMO it wouldn't work out and would quickly devolve into yet another load of BS for us to put up with.
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I enjoy being an independant contractor in my club. This is not the type of industry where a union is necessary. Being unionized or considered an emplyee would negatively affect my earnings. IC is the way to go!!!
I seriously doubt that any SC owner would be willing to give even decent benefits, I'd rather fiind them on my own.
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I would think that most of the ladies are happy with the IC status. Tax avoidance is probably the biggest upside but I would think lack of health insurance is probably the biggest negative. Being on your SO's policy can negate that though.
My company is practically drowning in government paperwork and the associated costs. Sometimes I yearn for a simple mom and pop under the table cash business.
FBR
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There are older threads here which discuss this issue in depth. IMHO independent contractor status definitely benefits a dancer who has a good work ethic and high earnings potential, who brings a lot to her club in the way of appearance/personality/performance, and who has the discipline to keep financial records and budget her earnings.
Again IMHO employee status only benefits "marginal" dancers, who would find themselves at a disadvantage when having to compete with girls who are more motivated or who bring more to the club in the way of appearance/personality/performance, and who have difficulty keeping financial records and budgeting their earnings. Employee benefits like health care, unemployment and disability also primarily benefit "marginal" dancers, whereas higher earning independent contractor dancers would generally prefer to retain more of their own earnings and provide for their own health care and financial needs rather than working for say $10 an hour, having to share tips, and forfeiting 50% of their private dance earnings as an employee of the club.
Clubowners actually prefer an illegal mix of independent contractor and employee treatment, where the club can take advantage of independent contractor provisions like charging stage fees, but at the same time can take advantage of employee attributes like rigid schedules, house rules, price fixing by the club etc. (which by law independent contractors don't have to abide by).
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Melonie I agree with you but frankly the dancers at my home club dont budget for health insurance even if they have kids. The money they earn just seems to go bye bye.
FBR
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Melonie I agree with you 100%.
FBR unfortunately most dancers suck at managing their finances, no matter how much money they make. Even more unfortunate is the fact that the trend is going down not up. It's WAY too easy for a girl to become a dancer now and as a result the types of girls who are attracted to the industry tend to be less professional in every aspect. The professionals are getting fewer and further in between while practically every Jane with a snatch can find herself on stage if she wants. Definitely not a good trend if you ask me, not good for anybody.
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Re:Employees or Independent Contractors
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Originally Posted by Katrine link=board=27;threadid=9848;start=msg118711#msg118 711 date=1086560114
I enjoy being an independant contractor in my club. This is not the type of industry where a union is necessary. Being unionized or considered an emplyee would negatively affect my earnings. IC is the way to go!!!
I seriously doubt that any SC owner would be willing to give even decent benefits, I'd rather fiind them on my own.
I agree.... I like the freedom of knowing I can travel, don't have to work set hours, and am in controll...well sorta.... of how much money I make.
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OK ,I'm confused.
At the SC I work at we were considerd IC's, but they pay us.And at one of them I didn't have any fees.
And why can some clubs charge a fee to work there?
If I higher and IC of a different kind to say work on my house.I would pay them.And since thre is no SC without strippers,shouldn't all of them pay the strippers.
Really they are highering a independant worker to do a job for them.Like say paying someone to paint your house.It is not like I'm a store renting space.
If it was like that then shouldn't I decide when and if to open and set all the prices myself.And couldn't I bring my own Dj or boncer if they are under my employment.
what the hell? I'm lost!
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At the SC I work at we were considerd IC's, but they pay us.And at one of them I didn't have any fees
Well it's important to define whether the CLUB is actually paying you out of their own pocket (i.e. employee wages) versus the club merely collecting and later passing on to you part of the customer's money as a commission for selling private dances (i.e. club acting as the independent contractor dancer's 'agent').
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And why can some clubs charge a fee to work there? If I hire and IC of a different kind to say work on my house.I would pay them
In your example, it is the club customer who is hiring the independent contractor dancer, the same as you as a customer would hire an independent contractor repairman to perform a service for you at your house. The club is merely acting as an 'agent' to connect the independent contractor and the customer, much like Mr. Fixit would connect you and a repairman.
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And since there is no SC without strippers, shouldn't all of them (clubs) pay the strippers ?
well sure you could ask the club to pay you an hourly wage, and I'm sure the club would probably agree to do this if dancers were required to perform private dances for free, with 100% of the customer's money going to the club and with dancers performing private dances as a condition of employment. This is the essence of the independent contractor versus employee debate.
While it's technically true that strip clubs couldn't exist without dancers, it's also true that the vast majority of dancers couldn't exist without strip clubs ! This argument is no different than saying that movie studios couldn't exist without actresses or saying that Hooters couldn't exist without waitresses. But the reality is that strip clubs and movie studios and Hooters restaurants will always be there, while dancers and actresses and waitresses get older, less attractive, less popular, and ultimately replaced by girls standing in line to take their job !
Like any popular hair salon or flea market, a popular strip club will have more independent contractors wishing to ply their trade on the premisis than the club has room for - simply because the strip club provides a supply of ready customers. This situation, where the club provides everything that an independent contractor dancer needs to instantly start making money, is the reason that good earnings potential clubs charge dancers a fee to work on their premisis and also the reason that smart dancers agree to pay the fee in order to access the club's customers. Independent hair stylists pay the same 'rent' to the hair salon, and independent craftmakers pay the same 'booth fee' to the flea market, for the same reason.
Like an independent hair stylist or craftmaker, a dancer could also decide to go it alone - but she would then have to advertise and find their own customers, provide their own security, travel to the customers etc. A few 'private dancers' are very successful at this, but it is much more complicated and potentially risky than simply walking into a club and making money from waiting customers which the club has attracted for you.
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FBR unfortunately most dancers suck at managing their finances, no matter how much money they make. Even more unfortunate is the fact that the trend is going down not up. It's WAY too easy for a girl to become a dancer now and as a result the types of girls who are attracted to the industry tend to be less professional in every aspect. The professionals are getting fewer and further in between while practically every Jane with a snatch can find herself on stage if she wants.
This brings us to a 'whole nuther discussion' , the bottom line of which is the vanishing of the exotic dancer image as a 'show business performer' a la Gypsy Rose Lee, and the mutation of the exotic dancer image into a 'sex industry worker' a la the Hollywood Stereotype. With the exception of a relative handful of remaining very upscale show clubs, an exotic dancer's earnings potential is less and less determined by her appearance or personality or stage performance, and more and more determined by the 'mileage' that she's willing to provide or by the 'implied promises' she's willing to make to club customers.
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Re:Employees or Independent Contractors
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Originally Posted by onyxxx link=board=27;threadid=9848;start=msg118466#msg118 466 date=1086495730
I don't understand sometimes why clubs get away with it, although I do know it takes more than one person to stand up for our rights, and honestly, none of the girls here even think about it but me.
You are not the only dancer on this site who has the guts to talk about this subject. When I first started dancing I was amazed at how these clubs were able to get away with so blatantly breaking the labor laws.
I have only been dancing for 1.5 years. I always worked in offices. Now that I have been hearing more and more about how much of a corrupt oligarchy this country is becoming, I have actually become numb to it.
I think that once we get rid of those oligarch gop's it will be possible for people to stand up for themselves again. Right now a lot of people are just rolling with the punches and trying to survive the reign of EG2. Thank God November is only a few months away.
The sex industry legal kit is also a great site full of information.
http://www.swop.org.au/resources/links.html
The only other thing that I can think of to attract dancers who are both more professional and more attractive, would be to try to bring back the art of burlesque, instead of just selling lap dances.
The Palimino Club in Las Vegas used to offer burlesque shows downstairs as well as lap dances upstairs. At least the dancers had a choice of being a sales person on 100% commission or getting paid a set fee plus tips. I don't see any reason in the world for an employer to charge entertainers $$ to keep their customers in their club entertained.
This is a great site for learning more about the effort to revive burlesque.
http://www.teaseorama.com/media.html
It's true that a lot of people are applying for a job as a dancer now days because there are so many unemployed people who have to take chances that they would have never considered before the extreme oligarchs took over the government.
Things are going to start getting better soon. :yes:
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I wouldn't put too much stock in the thought that "Emperor George II" will be "de-throned" by this november's election, or that economic conditions in strip clubs are likely to "improve" ! Anti-dance club political pressures continue to mount (even in liberal cities like LA !), corporate accounting practices continue to tighten (making it harder for corporate club customers to party on the AmEx card), and most Americans must divert more and more of their earnings to pay for basic necessities like gasoline, health care, and food.