I'll go see it, but it is propaganda (I can't deny that).
I'm a lefty, but I know propaganda when i see it.
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I'll go see it, but it is propaganda (I can't deny that).
I'm a lefty, but I know propaganda when i see it.
You're probably correct that they can't. However, the reason they can't has nothing to do with a shortage of subject material to include in a rebuttal film. The reason they can't is that every major film studio (with the possible exception of Disney) has iron handed control over the purse strings when it comes to financing movie production. Every major film studio makes decisions about which scripts and ideas they will fund for production and which scripts and ideas they will not. And every major film studio has a political position which is far to the left of center, as do the vast majority of Hollywood actors, writers, directors etc.Quote:
If the movie was so innacurate why doesnt someone make a rebuttle movie proving all of Moore's comments are false? Im going to guess b/c they cant.
If you want irrefutable proof of this point, just read up on Mel Gibson's experiences trying to "sell" his last movie to the major Hollywood studios.
I suppose that a conservative philanthropist could always decide to make $10+ million dollars available to get a rebuttal movie produced after all of the major studios refused funding. However, unlike Moore's film, a conservative rebuttal made in this way would most certainly be branded as a paid political advertisement with negative ramifications to Bush's re-election campaign.
Everyone--even Moore's critics--has said it's well-made, so there should certainly be entertainment value to it.
If nothing else, it has value in bringing debate to the forefront of the public, though I'm afraid of lot of that debate will be sorely lacking in reason and civility.
Debate is always good.
OK I am definitely going to see this movie on Sunday.... holy mother of God where have I been???? I think I saw something about this movie months ago but had forgotten all about it. MUST SEE THIS MOVIE! I think I spend too much time in my own world LOL.
Well, Dubya isn't fat, and Rush Limbaugh lost HIS gut--but this sounds remarkably similar to what has been done to the American public by the Bush Administrations (both of them)--allied with the Religious Right for a little help from God, who is apparently the reason Bush is president. No wonder I am an agnostic with atheist leanings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Observer link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg127947#msg127 947 date=1088171949
There are those on this forum who disagree strongly with me about politics, this war, and what kind of bias the media has been crippled by. I am not going to insult their intelligence by accusing them of the possession of "limited critical thinking capabilities."
But the average American citizen is all too easily swayed by political propaganda put out by leftists and reactionaries alike. Apparently, there's not much we can do about that, except possibly create a Gestapo to shoot a traitor like Moore for daring to suggest our President is infallible. This would probably be greeted with enthusiasm by at least one member of this forum of strippers and their associates.
If NBC is owned by GE, it's not going to be run in a fashion that GE disapproves of. If GE makes weapons and profits from their sale, I don't trust what their television station tells me to believe.
I don't believe what Moore says either, everytime, any more than I do that sack of hot gas Rush Limbaugh, or Ann Coulter, or anyone who tells me I am a traitor for daring to disagree with Bush, backed by God himself.
If you want to know how fair this movie is, after you see the movie there is a part where the US airspace is shutdown after 9/11 and the Saudis were allowed to fly out of the country. Were you under the impression that when the Saudi's flew out the airspace was still closed but the Bush administration let them fly anyway?
Well according to Lahane who moore hired to answer rebuttals about the movie, they never actually "said" the airspace was still closed. In reality when the Saudi's flew the commercial airlines were all flying again.
Michael Moores website is designed and run in Canada. Kind of ironic for the "Roger & Me" guy from Flint Michigan who is supposed to be so pro union and anti outsourcing. I guess there are no web designers in the United States
I will see the movie. There has to be an element of satire in every movie to make it entertaining.
Look at the news we watch everyday. It is slanted and leans to the right.
Anyone who is conservative is a religious fanatic and has something to gain monetarily from being associated with a political party that focuses all its efforts on fattening big business owners and investors pockets.
This country is fucked. While it may be better than many other countries, it still sucks really bad.
I read Moore's interview with Playboy in the July issue.
I do believe in many things he has said because they make sense.
This administration is shady and the Bush family and their cronies are crooks from way back. They are masters at cover ups and some of their dirt is going to gradually surface.
Anyone on this board who supports the Republican party in any way given the fact that they are anti abortion, pro abstinence, anti gay marriage, anti adult entertainment, have conservative views which in English means old fashioned values, put big business over the average citizen, support harsh drug laws, just to name a few shortcomings should not be dancing, or involved with this business in any way.
Now I am not saying that the Democratic Party is perfect, but it is the lesser of two evils.
All of us SW members who BETTER be liberals (liberals are accepting of peoples differences and not trying to force their beliefs on other people as conservatives do) had better vote and vote for Kerry not because he is the ideal candidate, but because it will get rid of the Bush administration, and then we can work from there to strengthen our personal liberties in this country. Anyone who lives a liberal lifestyle as per the definition above and who votes Republican is a fool.
As Moore's article says if we get 4 more years of Bush, the Supreme Court will be all conservative and more and more of our basic rights will be undermined. The mixing of church with state is bullshit and is a priority with this administration.
And also as he quotes in the article, Bush is an ignorant man and a poor public speaker. And that Ashcroft, Rumsfield, and many others in his inner circle are motivated by a sick combination of religious fundamentalism and corporate greed.
And any of US who support a man who would have Ashcroft in his inner circle is really got a screw loose.
Look at how Chris Rock makes serious issues funny in his shows.
Granted Bush did not ignore the first twin tower crash as Moore states, but Moore is just trying to make serious points entertaining. Bush and his people ARE scams.
Bush's no child left behind is a scam. Halliburton being involved in the Middle East rebuilding with no bidding involved is a scam.
Cheney and Bush were involved in Enron type scandals but they are sealed.
Every indescretion of the Bush family is covered up and has been for years.
The oil is the reason Bush and his cronies are focused on Iraq. Texas oil roots and money run deep. Do some research on Texas oil tycoons. There is so much corruption in their circles that it is unbelievable it stays covered up. Bush has fucked up our relations with many other countries, hasn't he?
Anyone who can't see through this administration is clearly a fool.
His obligations are to the people who contributed to his campaign, not to us. He is in bed with the church. Why the hell do you think there is so much anti abortion money out there and so many anti obscenity and decency groups undermining our business and anything that is sexually liberal???
Of course Disney and Miramar won't back his film. They are big business and they will not get involved with something controversial like that. All big businesses are in bed with those in power anyway. The media doesn't portray stripping in a positive light either, does it? Does that make our careers bullshit just like some of you are saying his film is? Right wing people are NOT going to back something that could hurt them, are they???
Moore has to do what he has to do to fight this fucked up administration with his film. So he uses a little exaggeration. This is a movie for Christ's sake.The underlying truth behind his exaggerations still exists.
So, it makes sense to look at what's right with Moore's film and interview, doesn't it? He is doing the best he can with the money available to him, isn't he?
He is trying to help us get Bush out of office, isn't he?
And all of us who are not devout church goers, who are strippers, who patonize strip clubs and adult venues, who derive income from this business, who have had an abortion or may have a need for one in the future, who are gay, who have been convicted of a drug crime, and want more drug decriminalization, who don't want big brother knowing everything about their private life more so than they already do, and who want to see this country get more on the liberal track SHOULD appreciate and support the film and make sure our vote is made AGAINST that fucker Bush, shouldn't we?
Anyone of us here who doesn't have the intelligence to see the importance that this movie along with rappers pushing to register non traditional voters in large urban cities has, should really take a good hard look at themselves, shouldn't they?
>:(
I got 2 sentences into your post and had to ask if you found Schindlers list to be entertaining? I did but I missed the satire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128278#msg128 278 date=1088207923
Do you really believe that the news leans right?????? Is it the way the news has downplayed the "prison scandal" and just keeps pounding us with news stories about Vladamir Putin warning Bush that Iraq was planning to attack the US per Soviet intelligence. Something else that bugs me about the media is how they keep putting Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly & Sean Hannity on CBS's 60 minutes to promote their books while not allowing people like Richard Clark, Bill Clinton and Bob Woodward on.
Go see the movie but take it for what it is. A piece of fiction.
Precisely the point I have been trying to make repeatedly on this forum, though I would draw the line when you say they shouldn't be dancing, since so many dancers and especially so many dancers' customers, are Republican--and that's not likely to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128278#msg128 278 date=1088207923
But what do you think Bush, et al, think about STRIPPERS??!!
The religious right wants to SHUT US DOWN. I have nothing against Republicans whatsoever, many of my closest family members and friends are members of the party. But the fucking bible beaters need to be told to stay out of politics--ie the Republican (or any) Party--not to mention our sex life and options for literary or other entertainment.
Inevitably those who are oblivious to the true desire of the current administration and it's backers concerning the adult industry will proclaim that there are democrats who are opposed to stripclubs as well.
True enough, Catharine MacKinnon, Tipper Gore, and the Governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm (whose husband was caught in a raid on a strip club, lol--though detroit strippers and DJs aren't laughing anymore) are all doing everything they can to ensure that noone ever sees a woman dance nearly naked again.
But look at the percentages of Republicans who have condemned adult entertainment venues, and the 'evil liberals' who have done so as well.
The Moral Majority and other church-dominated political organizations have had far more Republicans than Democrats as active members. These people are the reason that Playboy cannot be bought in 7-11, and if they had their way, it would be unavailable anywhere at all.
I do NOT condemn all Republicans--other than believing both parties suck monkey dick when it comes right down to it--I just wish those involved in the industry, whether as employees or customers, would quit ignoring the evidence pumped out by their politicians and pundits, and defend their livelihood--and their rights as freethinking citizens.
Interesting. I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican Party. I have been since the second year of the fist Clinton administration when I finally wised up to the differences between the two parties. Oddly enough, I am anti-abortion, anti-abstinence, anti gay-marriage, pro adult entertainment, pro big business, pro small business, pro medium business, support harsh drug laws, and am involved in this business. I guess I'm just a wrench in the gears of your argument, or a paradigm of the universe...one or the other. Also understand though that not all Republicans are ultra right wing bible thumpers just the same way not all Democrats are Michael Moore, socialistic, kool-aid drinkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128278#msg128 278 date=1088207923
Again, I am not saying the Democratic Party is perfect, and they are not going to bend over backwards for our business either.
I am just saying that the conservatives are forcing people through legislation to live a fundamentally conservative lifestyle, or else.
I have nothing against people who live different lifestyles than me, but I am not going to force the legal channels to make other people live life the way I like it.
I could care less who has an abortion. It is their body. Gay people being married doesn't make me lose sleep at night any more than knowing a strip club is down the street concerns me. As long as people don't interfere with my life I won't interfere with theirs.
This is about personal freedoms. Sure Republicans go to strip clubs. But if they choose to affiliate themselves with a party that worships traditional values, they are hippocrites.
I am not Michael Moores personal supporter either. But what he is promoting benefits us all.
Democrats aren't backing us either, but the fundamentals of the party give us a better chance of survival than with the moral majority types who can't rationalize anything further than what their bible says.
Our business has taken a very bad hit with this administration in office. Sure it started before he was elected but with more conservatives in power we are feeling the pinch in a bad way.
A person can choose to not want an abortion for herself but not pound the pavement trying to make it illegal for those who get pregnant accidentally and don't want to disrupt their life for 9 months.
It's all about respecting peoples differences, not forcing them to change citing the bible as the reason behind it.
That is what we stand to lose big time with 4 more years of Bush.
I agree with you 100%. On the same tolken though, you also have to understand that liberals do the exact same thing you just critisized conservatives of doing. Conservatives try to change policy through legislation and liberals try to change policy from the bench. It's six to one, half a dozen to the other. Don't kid yourself, liberals try and force people into their beliefs all the time through the legal process. They want you to have the right to choose aborting your child but don't want you to have the choice to own a gun in spite of it also being part of our constitution. Both sides try and ram their views down each other's throat...BOTH sides. Welcome to politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128315#msg128 315 date=1088212249
One of these is constitutional, one is not.Quote:
Conservatives try to change policy through legislation and liberals try to change policy from the bench.
Guess which is which?
ERRR,
May I prefice this with IMHO.
I love debates like this. The naivete combined with the idealism of the young makes life interesting.
One side trys to say it is east and the other side is west. In reality, one is south south east and the other is south south west. There is very little difference when you get into it. These two parties are slightly different shades of grey searching for what will move them from 49% to 51%.
People are acting like only Republicans send soldiers to war and conveniently ignore the Democrats who did the same thing. If you look at the accuations and the counter claims, you can subsitute the same for any party .... just pick the right president and you just substitute the name.
Relative to 9/11. Even the national news tonight picked apart the facts in this movie and how misleading and biased it is. If you are looking for a biased "documentary" this is it.
I already saw one lousy movie this week- Terminal; I won't waste more on this one.
I still say neither side is perfect. There are platform planks I like in each party. It just depends on who will do you the most good or least harm.
I still believe the money I earn is mine to spend and I can figure it out better than the government... whether republican and democrat. If you don't believe that, than please send all of your money to me.
If you don't have money, and you don't pay taxes, than don't bitch about the guy who spends $300,000 a year in taxes instead of $400,000. I watch the news and Kerry speak to the LA elite tonight with all of their millions from movies, and songs, and I wondered what makes a rich Barbara Streisand different from a rich republican.?
The people who work hard and make it are not rich, they are hard workers. The people who don't work and inherited $100,000,000 from their hotel owning parents, or their bootlegging grandfather (The Kennedys) are the ones who should be paying taxes and working. Look at the inheritance or estate tax... not the income tax.
That is what needs to change.
This whole 9/11 thing is just a distraction to take you away from the real issues of the economy, taxes, and the screwed up health care system we have.
There are rich democrates and poor republicans ... I bet 99% of us couldn't even define what the real ideoligical differences are. I think we flipped a coin when we were young.
Anyway. just another pointless comment from me...
;D
wow that's a pretty brave admission to make here considering your business . Men who think they have the right tell women what they can or cannot do in regards to childbirth are not generaly well recieved by dancers, including this ex-dancerQuote:
Originally Posted by DancerWealth link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128295#msg128 295 date=1088210718
>:(
I don't see it that way which, in my opinion, is the real debate between pro and anti abortion people. I'm really so much anti-abortion as I am anti late-term abortion. Being able to abort a child in the last month or two, or even the last week or two of pregnancy just isn't right. Men, Women, etc. has nothing to do with the debate at that point. If a baby is 8 1/2 months old and is taken out of the womb and then has a needle jamed in its head to kill it is wrong...period. Quite frankly, I'm just not passionate about this debate enough to really take a strong stand on when is and when is not the right period of time for when abortions should be illegal. I just know that the late-term abotion issue is just plain bad policy. Of course there are always medical exceptions to this, but I'm talking about as a means of birth control, which, if you ask any abortion doctor, pretty much is 99% of the reasons why women have them, especially late term abortions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerlilly link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128397#msg128 397 date=1088221288
I am not a fan of late term procedures either (or using abortion as a form of birth control) and I have heard the opposite info on why those that have late term procedures. It is my understanding that the main reason is due to severe mother health issues where birth would likely end her life or extreem birth defects not found until late in the pregnancy. I also know that these procedures are very rare to begin with.
The late term argument Rep. use is nothing more than a smokescreen for the real agenda- to stop women from having a choice at all- including rape victims.
I don't think anyone has the right to tell a woman how or when to give birth. I also think ALL women should take personal responcibilty of their reproductive life. I am pro birth control, but it should be called pregnancy contol instead imho
But alas we're off topic now so I just leave it at that
Where the future of the strip club industry is concerned, one really needs to think the issue through completely. For example western europe, which is very liberal, does not have and cannot support an "American" version of the strip club industry. Basically western europe has a small number of hostess clubs which only hire the best of the best looking highly talented girls to provide no contact eye candy. Western europe then has a large number of sex clubs, where sex on stage and sex with customers is permitted and expected. European clubs which attempt to operate on the "American" strip club business model between these two extremes are usually unsuccessful.Quote:
Democrats aren't backing us either, but the fundamentals of the party give us a better chance of survival than with the moral majority types who can't rationalize anything further than what their bible says.
Our business has taken a very bad hit with this administration in office. Sure it started before he was elected but with more conservatives in power we are feeling the pinch in a bad way
The religious right wants to SHUT US DOWN. I have nothing against Republicans whatsoever, many of my closest family members and friends are members of the party. But the fucking bible beaters need to be told to stay out of politics--ie the Republican (or any) Party--not to mention our sex life and options for literary or other entertainment.
Inevitably those who are oblivious to the true desire of the current administration and it's backers concerning the adult industry will proclaim that there are democrats who are opposed to stripclubs as well.
My point is that when liberal politics in an area removes the conservative restrictions in regard to strip club operation, clubs and dancers make lots of money. However, because there are few/no restrictions, it usually requires that a lot more than just dancing must occur in order to earn that money. I give you San Francisco clubs in general as an example, where 'extras' are available in virtually every club in town, and where it's very difficult to earn decent money without doing 'extras' in many clubs.
The underlying premise of "middle of the road" American strip clubs is to work on the conservative inhibitions of customers - providing them nudity and interaction with a sexy girl for a price - a price that they are willing to pay because they can't find that nudity and interaction elsewhere. In a truly liberal culture, nudity and interaction can be found on the beaches and in regular night clubs for free !
Melonie~
I don't always agree with you, but i gotta say you have got your shit together!
Thank you, Madcap. I guess that I have been "cursed" with an ability to look down the road and see how today's "idealist" principle will turn into tomorrow's "real world" consequence. Unfortunately, in many cases, the eventual real world consequences of implementing the original principle bear little resemblance to the original "idealism". This seems to happen for conservative principles (like the Patriot Act) as well as liberal principles (like abortion rights).Quote:
Originally Posted by Madcap link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128507#msg128 507 date=1088243394
The difference is that Barbara Streisand gets free air time, while the rich republican must buy that air time (and have the cost figured into campaign finance limits) ! Barbara Streisand also gets to produce a movie a la Michael Moore which offers a grossly inaccurate depiction of Ronald Reagan's political history for which she was paid well, while the conservative millionaire had to wait for Ronald Reagan to die to see his political history somewhat accurately depicted in news coverage.Quote:
If you don't have money, and you don't pay taxes, than don't bitch about the guy who spends $300,000 a year in taxes instead of $400,000. I watch the news and Kerry speak to the LA elite tonight with all of their millions from movies, and songs, and I wondered what makes a rich Barbara Streisand different from a rich republican.?
exactly ! In fact, the majority of big spending strip club customers seem to share your selected Republican views. Ironically, the majority of big spending customers of escorts appear to be Democrats ! Any theories on that observation ?Quote:
Also understand though that not all Republicans are ultra right wing bible thumpers just the same way not all Democrats are Michael Moore, socialistic, kool-aid drinkers
I saw a great bumper sticker yesterday while surfing the net.Quote:
Originally Posted by DancerWealth link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128402#msg128 402 date=1088222372
Guns don't kill
Abortion clinics do
I'm not anti abortion but ya gotta admit its a great bumper sticker
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancerWealth link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128295#msg128 295 date=1088210718
Yep DW - just like you said it. Whew have I missed a lot. Teach me to go to work!
Big D
But as you have pointed out numerous times elsewhere, the conservative laws almost invariably have the same result, though certainly not what the creators of the legislation intended--with the additional effect of making the dancers, who are considered prostitutes in the eye of the law for rubbing a customer's leg, sexual offenders who must carry this stigma for the rest of their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=10447;start=msg128506#msg128 506 date=1088243029
I'll take my chances with laws that don't make stripping or lap-dancing crimes, and dancers criminals to be castigated and reviled by the general public.