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Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
A SC acquaintance of mine (Ten4) posted this on another site. With his permission, I am posting it here for your perusal and amusement. While the opinions are all his, I can't honestly say I disagree with any of his premises. I know many here will however, and perhaps that will cut through the ennui around this place.
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An interesting thread came up the other day on the TER discussion board. TER is, by the way, an entertaining board run by duds who, like ZBone and titbars, know way too much about call-girls. Worth checking out even if you'd never call a hooker/escort (which I realize is like saying you read Playboy for the articles -- hell, it's like saying you read Hustler for the articles), but then I am easily pleased.
Anyway, a PL queried whether he might have a good time paying strippers -- as opposed to whores and escorts -- for out-of-club services. Most of the responses -- from both "providers" and "hobbyists" (how about that for a euphemism!) -- reflected a belief that strippers were fucked-up man-haters, whereas the best of the escorts actually liked their customers and dug what they did.
Now I realize that dyed-in-the-wool hobbyists are prolly operating under the same delusional psychoses as the PLs who think that Alexia spends her nights dreaming about their huge cocks. But with that caveat, isn't there some truth to what they're saying? Isn't it true that most dancers simultaneously believe they can get any guy to wanna fuck 'em -- and therefore drop huge wads of cash just for horseshit cockgrinding -- but not get any reasonable guy to really want them in any deeper sense? In other words, in their world, the richest/most desirable guy in town will give them money, and the biggest loser busboy/Albertson's fish counter guy wouldn't take them seriously. So no surprise that, for whatever sordid reason in their pathetic lives, they're all fucked up and see all guys merely as contemptible sources of money to be exploited in any way possible.
Are high end hookers different? What if they limit their customers to guys to whom they're attracted? Wouldn't that just make them promiscuous singles who get cash at the end of the evening instead of just a wet spot on the sheets? And don't they get the same benefit as the guys -- as Charlie Sheen put it, you don't pay 'em to have sex with you, you pay 'em to leave after they have sex with you -- and also get a lotta money?
Also, isn't it less demeaning to screen calls and fuck a few guys that you know will treat you well and who you might even enjoy fucking whenever you need the dough, than it is to ask 100 guys a day if they wanna dance, getting rejected by most of them, and then giving furtive handjobs and more to those that say yes? Given all of this, is it the height of delusion that almost all strippers see themselves as on a much, much higher level than escorts?
Kinda makes you go hmmmm . . . . .
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
In this analysis of who's fucked up, how about adding in the customer?
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by Chili Palmer link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25313#msg25313 date=1090543809
whereas the best of the escorts actually liked their customers and dug what they did.
I think that a few people on this site would share this belief regarding their ATF or other enjoyable experiences in the clubs, including those that leave these relationships at the clubs.
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In other words, in their world, the richest/most desirable guy in town will give them money, and the biggest loser busboy/Albertson's fish counter guy wouldn't take them seriously. So no surprise that, for whatever sordid reason in their pathetic lives, they're all fucked up and see all guys merely as contemptible sources of money to be exploited in any way possible.
I don't think they're all fucked up. A decent percentage-you bet! Bottom line all providers are going exploit their customers to a degree, regardless of how they feel about them, its just business.
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Also, isn't it less demeaning to screen calls and fuck a few guys that you know will treat you well and who you might even enjoy fucking whenever you need the dough, than it is to ask 100 guys a day if they wanna dance, getting rejected by most of them, and then giving furtive handjobs and more to those that say yes? Given all of this, is it the height of delusion that almost all strippers see themselves as on a much, much higher level than escorts?
Kinda makes you go hmmmm . . . . .
IMO, yes it is much less demeaning from the perspective of salesmanship. Those that have sold any type of goods or services would love to be in a situation where the rate of acceptance far outweighs the rate of rejection.
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In this analysis of who's fucked up, how about adding in the customer?
Yes, at the end of the day we're all fucked up-escorts, strippers, customers, johns.........alike!
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
I'll provide the Cliff's notes version of the original included text:
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I'm a bitter PL that has to pay for sex, and since I recognize these absolutely gorgeous, scantily clad women working in the stripclubs are desired by EVERY being wielding a penis.. along with the fact that I will never, ever be able to obtain them 'for real' ... I'll go hit internet forums and anyplace I can voice how 'fucked up' they are in order to quell the misogynist fire I have burning inside me.
I mean after all, even though I'm either old, overweight, too cheap to hit the gym, or socially inept and bitter- these chics should be giving themselves to me for free and therefore the fact that money enters the equation pisses me off enough to post such doodie.
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(takes a bow)
I really have yet to meet any of these 'man-hater' strippers (or escorts for that matter) that all these John /trick ramblings seem to commonly identify.
I DO commonly hear my friends in either industry constantly complain about asshole customers, as well as make blanket "all men suck" kinds of references, but it's just venting. Hell, I do the same 'all women suck' back at them when I'm venting from being flaked on or otherwise similarly pissed off at the opposite gender. It's common... but nah, suddenly one sentence from one pissed off stripper after a bad night and in a bad relationship exposes 'all men are slime' .. and this suddenly becomes the PL mission statement of Global Behavioral Determination for All Exotic Dancers.
::)
Well, I hope I didnt let Chili down in cutting through the ennui around this place. tee hee.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Referring to the question: I dont get none from either of them and I dont think either will give me any until I Pay them.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by polecat link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25326#msg25326 date=1090653043
I DO commonly hear my friends in either industry constantly complain about asshole customers, as well as make blanket "all men suck" kinds of references, but it's just venting. Hell, I do the same 'all women suck' back at them when I'm venting from being flaked on or otherwise similarly pissed off at the opposite gender. It's common... but nah, suddenly one sentence from one pissed off stripper after a bad night and in a bad relationship exposes 'all men are slime' .. and this suddenly becomes the PL mission statement of Global Behavioral Determination for All Exotic Dancers.
::)
Amen.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by Chili Palmer link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25313#msg25313 date=1090543809
Anyway, a PL queried whether he might have a good time paying strippers -- as opposed to whores and escorts -- for out-of-club services.
i probably would have told him it depends. how much risk tolerance (or aversion) do you possess? seeing an escort is a straightforward proposition. however, strippers who do see customers outside of the sc don't always operate exactly like an escort (see related Topic: What's the best way to ASK for the Holy Grail?). however, it is also important to realize that a different set of rules and a different mindset is required to play this game. the rules aren't always as clear-cut in a sc when compared to seeing an escort and strippers will definitely take full advantage of the unaware customer when it comes to exploiting that ambiguity.
a stripper wants the maximium amount of money possible while expending the least amount of energy/effort/time as possible. however, there are steps you can take to considerably minimize your losses and increase your chances of success and as an additional bonus. you'll be quite entertained by some of the most patently facile attempts to relieve you of your money.
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Originally Posted by Chili Palmer link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25313#msg25313 date=1090543809
Isn't it true that most dancers simultaneously believe they can get any guy to wanna fuck 'em -- and therefore drop huge wads of cash just for horseshit cockgrinding -- but not get any reasonable guy to really want them in any deeper sense? In other words, in their world, the richest/most desirable guy in town will give them money, and the biggest loser busboy/Albertson's fish counter guy wouldn't take them seriously.
well, i wouldn't go that far. sure, there's not exactly a shortage of sheep waiting to be fleeced in a sc. shit, some of the horror stories on this board are scary enough to turn your hair white. however, i'm sure there are plenty of reasonable guys who want to know strippers in a deeper sense....RIL, fuckoes, white knights, suitcase pimps, and let's not forget...drumsticks anyone ;D? seriously, i don't know what most dancers believe and i'm really not that curious to find out. although, i can feign curiosity when necessary. :)
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Originally Posted by Chili Palmer link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25313#msg25313 date=1090543809
So no surprise that, for whatever sordid reason in their pathetic lives, they're all fucked up and see all guys merely as contemptible sources of money to be exploited in any way possible.
i don't think it's so much contempt. contempt takes effort and i don't think it's that personal in most cases. however, i will say this much. most customers (including the non-sc mongers) aren't aware that strippers constantly play a zero sum game with one goal in mind. always make sure that customer ends up with the short end of the stick. like i said, a stripper wants the maximium amount of money possible while expending the least amount of energy/effort/time as possible. however, a strength can also be a weakness and that weakness can be exploited in order to achieve your ultimate goal.
frankly, i grin if a stripper assumes that i'm just another socially-inept PL who can't just wait to give away his money. i smile when a stripper admires the size of my tiproll. i snicker when she thinks it will be an easy task to dig very deep into my tiproll by promising everything while delivering nothing. i cackle when she kisses me, saws her knee across my hard-on, tells me her "real name" or that "i'm special".
why am i so ecstatic? three reasons: (1) like i said, sometimes you can be simply entertained by the transparent machinations of a stripper. (2) i know there's only one way a stripper can ever dig deep into my tip roll and there are no shortcuts. (3) she's underestimating me. which is good, they'll never see me coming. in the meantime, while she thinks she's playing me for a sucker. she's showing me all of her cards in the process. from that point, it's fairly easy to determine if she can truly deliver the goods and i don't have to invest much upfront money to gather that information.
like i said, it's a game, but that doesn't mean you have to play her game, follow her rules, play to lose or that you can't play games of your own. for me, that is what makes the game more interesting, IMHO.
anyway, to answer the question, "who's more fucked up: strippers or escorts. i have no idea and don't really care. although, i can feign caring when necessary :). however, i will say this and this is nothing i haven't stated before: there is a lot of flakiness in the sex industry.
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Originally Posted by RCJ link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25316#msg25316 date=1090589005
Bottom line all providers are going exploit their customers to a degree, regardless of how they feel about them, its just business.
yes, place a mixture of men, women, money and sex in a commercial setting and there's bound to be some kind of exploitation going on. however, i see nothing wrong with a little exploitation, mutual or otherwise, under the right conditions.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Mutual exploitation is great as long as all the players understand the rules of the game. I believe Im there.
FBR
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by FBR link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25362#msg25362 date=1090786827
Mutual exploitation is great as long as all the players understand the rules of the game. I believe Im there.
FBR
I agree on this one :great:
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Why does anybody have to be fucked up? Strippers strip for money. Escorts fuck for money. Men who patronize either-as long as they realize they are only getting what they wan't because they are paying cash for it-are simply buying a service.
Man haters? Maybe some, but I've known cashiers and bank tellers who were man haters too.
Maybe I'm over-simplifying things here but I've never had any trouble finding the girls who ARE NOT fucked up-just trying to earn a living. Patronize the girls who make you happy, dump the ones who don't. Seems simple to me.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Can I cast a write-in vote for nurses? :P
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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I don't think they're all fucked up. A decent percentage-you bet! Bottom line all providers are going exploit their customers to a degree, regardless of how they feel about them, its just business.
Sure, only escorts/strippers are the exploiters. Do you really get the short end of the stick? Why? Because in the end you have spent money and we have earned it at the expense of emotional death and social ostracism by those assholes who judge and impose guilt upon us?
I don't believe that pseudo-feminist BS about women in the sex industry as being all expoited victims, but for every Sgt Johnny, there is a Punk, aggied, and Sporty to make up for the imparity.
:peace:
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by Katrine link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25417#msg25417 date=1091029599
Sure, only escorts/strippers are the exploiters.
well, i never said that. like i said, you don't have to play to lose.
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Originally Posted by Katrine link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25417#msg25417 date=1091029599
Do you really get the short end of the stick?
no, but unaware customer looking at you with goo-goo eyes gets the short end of the stick because he simply doesn't know how the sc game is played. OTOH, the customer who knows how to play the game is going to make sure a stripper can actually back-up all that cheap talk before handing over the cheese.
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Originally Posted by Katrine link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25417#msg25417 date=1091029599
Why? Because in the end you have spent money and we have earned it at the expense of emotional death and social ostracism by those assholes who judge and impose guilt upon us?
well, that statement would depend on your definition of the word "earned". if a customer spends money under the false impression that he's going to "get it all" (or anything else for that matter) and doesn't recieve anything. did you really earn your money? or did you just get some chump to pay you for an inferior good? as far as judging or imposing guilt upon you? that's the last thing i want to do. let's be honest and cut the crap, if the first 20 customers are willing to just hand over the money for nothing in return doesn't mean you should expect that the same transparent tactics will work on the 21st customer. as far as your emotional death and social ostracism (a bit melodramatic, don't you think?)? like i said, it's a game. don't step into the ring if you aren't willing to risk a bloody nose or if you expect all your opponents to take a dive.
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Originally Posted by Katrine link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25417#msg25417 date=1091029599
I don't believe that pseudo-feminist BS about women in the sex industry as being all expoited victims, but for every Sgt Johnny, there is a Punk, aggied, and Sporty to make up for the imparity.
oh, i see. now, i'm Dr. Evil and who in the hell is Sgt.Johnny? judging from the context of your statement. i'm going to assume he's some sort of mega-PL type. anyway, what do you expect from me? i mean, you walk around the sc hustling guys getting them to pay for services you have no intention of delivering. nothing wrong with that. that's a big part of the game for strippers. however, i'm not paying for that type of service. it would be akin to paying you to talk. OTOH, i go around the sc finding out which strippers actually want to earn my money versus those that just want me to hand over my money. so, what's the problem? we're both playing the game in our own little ways. so, why can't i have my fun?
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Katrine's comment about "emotional death and social ostracism" is on point. It's important to have a real world identity as well, whether college student, nurse or something else that people respect.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
oh please. kat's talking out of both side of her mouth. OTOH, she says she doesn't "believe that pseudo-feminist BS about women in the sex industry as being all expoited victims". OTOH, she thinks strippers are victims in the sense that stripping causes "emotional death and social ostracism" (i.e. - stripper damage). IOW, stripping turn women into flakes. now, that may very well be the case. however, i'm sure it's not the only reason. perhaps, they were just flakey long before they got into stripping.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
I don't see that much difference between stripping vs escorting except for one of degree on a scale from very tame to very hardcore.
Neither is really possible without:
1.) Customers who are willing to trade money for sexual activity.
2.) Providers who are willing to trade sexual activity for money.
These two feed off each other and while each may point the finger at the other, I see it is a pure and simple mutual arrangement, sans cases where providers (yes often women) are forced. Providers can't exist without customers, and customers can't exist without providers.
Both have limits on what they are willing to pay for and do.
Some customers draw the line at little or no contact; others at some contact through clothing; others are BJ/HJs, and so on.
Likewise some providers draw the lines in the same ways.
It is the customers who will have a pointless discussion about who is more fucked up, strippers or escorts. Who cares? If anything is fucked up about the providers then as far as I am concerned you may as well just argue that the entire customer<->provider exchange that is fucked up. Providers don't exist without customers or vice versa.
Again putting aside cases where a provider is forced....
I think both customers and providers do (or should) realize there is some risk in participating in the provider<->customer business. And if you don't know, well then this is the way life is, if you ignore all warnings telling you there are risks about doing something (and unless you live in a cave I don't know how you could not know most of the risks), blaim yourself, because it is a choice.
As a customer, what are some of the risks?
Disease
Getting caught by your SO
Crime/Jail time/social ostracism (and yes our society frowns on John's too).
Possible loss of feelings for your SO or the other sex in general
Risk of being mugged
Loss of income that could be used for one's children, wife, other pursuits, etc.
As a provider, what are some of the risks?
Disease
Getting caught by your SO
Crime/Jail time/social ostracism
Possible loss of feelings for your SO or the other sex in general.
Risk of being physically harmed.
Loss of time that could be used to learn a new skill or time on a job that could be used as a resume builder.
So who is more fucked up? As far as I am concerned it is just another of those less than perfect situations, but neither the customers nor the providers really want to end it because they both want the benefits (money for one, sex for the other). Both providers and customers know there are risks, both participate willingly, and both are inclined to cry foul when they are affected by the risks. Typical human nature. Noone really thinks "it" is going to happen to them when they engage in risky behavior.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Gee, we're just in danger of being "physically harmed?" How about being strangled to death, or shot? Think about it - a woman alone with a strange man in a room - who is more at risk?
Who is more fucked up - an escort/stripper, or a person who has no respect for and despises sex workers yet continues to pursue sex with them? What does it say about the likes of you? Does it make you feel superior? Or is it really that you yourself are ashamed about what you are doing, but rather than own up to your problems you'd rather point the finger at someone else?
It's like a client once said to me after he handed me six hundred dollars "What happened to you in your childhood that makes you do this?"
My answer was, "What happened in your childhood that made you come to me?"
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Furthermore, Mister Punk...with all that flair for Machevellian intrigue, you should be rooting out Al Qaeda cells and keeping Americans safe. Or just something a little more productive...crocheting, perhaps?
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by Adina link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25460#msg25460 date=1091126611
Who is more fucked up - an escort/stripper, or a person who has no respect for and despises sex workers yet continues to pursue sex with them? What does it say about the likes of you? Does it make you feel superior? Or is it really that you yourself are ashamed about what you are doing, but rather than own up to your problems you'd rather point the finger at someone else?
It's like a client once said to me after he handed me six hundred dollars "What happened to you in your childhood that makes you do this?"
My answer was, "What happened in your childhood that made you come to me?"
Good reply.
Note, you should specify who you are speaking too Adina as it is not clear which message(s) you are responding too. I personally don't use escorts, but yes to dancers (sometimes).
And yes the escorts are at a higher risk, but mostly because they engage in more sex for money exchanges than most customers (e.g., several times a day vs maybe once a week or month for a customer), and each exchange carries with it risk. It is like playing russian roulette, the more you play, the more likely you are to to have a bad day. Of course there are plenty of other jobs in which the risk of death/injury is higher that being an escort, and likewise plenty of other jobs in which the risk is lower... every person that pursues a career/job path has to weigh the risks against the pay/rewards.
Who do I think is more fucked up?
1.) Customers that think the providers are fucked up (well then don't use them, problem solved)
2.) Providers that think the customers are fucked up (well don't sell sex, problem solved)
In my mind customers and providers are equally responsible in an exchange of sexual services for money, and I am not very sympathetic to either complaining about the other being fucked up, not when both have a choice to do something else.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
The first paragraph was intended for you, Darren, and I think your reasoning is quite off - it isn't just a numbers game or the laws of probability. Are you saying that a man who sees 10 escorts a week is just as likely to be physically harmed by an escort as an escort who sees 10 clients a week is likely to be harmed by a client? Not by a long shot. This industry attracts types - a minority, but a dangerous minority - who (correctly) perceive that sex workers are seen by society at large as being inferior and expendable - and therefore perceive us as being fair game for violence. Show me a john who's had his wallet stolen, possibly gotten roughed up by a hood - and I'll show you a thousand prostitutes who've suffered worse consequences. It's an occupational hazard - but for you to suggest both parties assume an equal amount of risk is absurd.
The second paragraph is aimed at Chili Palmer. I've read a lot of escort review boards, and I had to stop reading them, with the exception of ASPD (I love you, ASPD), because I got so tired of the usual misogynist invective BS: "Hookers are lazy, greedy and stupid," "no piece of ass is worth that much," blah blah blah. I have to wonder to myself, then why patronize them? I belong to a couple of "girls only" escort boards myself...I've never read a single thread denigrating men as a sex or clients as a group of people. Never. You know what we talk about? Investing, healthcare, LE, putting out alerts when one of us gets robbed...you know, your usual man-hating stuff like that. Chili Palmer, you and Mr. Punk need to get together for some sweet man 2 man hot monkey love...you'll be a lot happier and save a lot of money in the process.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by Adina link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25470#msg25470 date=1091147851
The first paragraph was intended for you, Darren, and I think your reasoning is quite off - it isn't just a numbers game or the laws of probability. Are you saying that a man who sees 10 escorts a week is just as likely to be physically harmed by an escort as an escort who sees 10 clients a week is likely to be harmed by a client? Not by a long shot. This industry attracts types - a minority, but a dangerous minority - who (correctly) perceive that sex workers are seen by society at large as being inferior and expendable - and therefore perceive us as being fair game for violence. Show me a john who's had his wallet stolen, possibly gotten roughed up by a hood - and I'll show you a thousand prostitutes who've suffered worse consequences. It's an occupational hazard - but for you to suggest both parties assume an equal amount of risk is absurd.
Fair enough Adina, and point taken. Yes, they are a higher risk in each encounter too... all the more reason for the provider to seriously consider another line of work (or at least work in legal brothel where there is some protection).
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Monkey love? What the hell is that? Ive been sheltered for many years LOL
FBR
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
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Originally Posted by Darren link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25472#msg25472 date=1091148731
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Originally Posted by Adina link=board=1;threadid=1608;start=msg25470#msg25470 date=1091147851
The first paragraph was intended for you, Darren, and I think your reasoning is quite off - it isn't just a numbers game or the laws of probability. Are you saying that a man who sees 10 escorts a week is just as likely to be physically harmed by an escort as an escort who sees 10 clients a week is likely to be harmed by a client? Not by a long shot. This industry attracts types - a minority, but a dangerous minority - who (correctly) perceive that sex workers are seen by society at large as being inferior and expendable - and therefore perceive us as being fair game for violence. Show me a john who's had his wallet stolen, possibly gotten roughed up by a hood - and I'll show you a thousand prostitutes who've suffered worse consequences. It's an occupational hazard - but for you to suggest both parties assume an equal amount of risk is absurd.
Fair enough Adina, and point taken. Yes, they are a higher risk in each encounter too... all the more reason for the provider to seriously consider another line of work (or at least work in legal brothel where there is some protection).
Just to be clear, customers that harm providers are obvious scumbags and should be lynched. Same with providers that knowingly have STDs and pass them on to customers (or vice versa).
But still to be clear, higher risk doesn't tip the scales in favor of customers are more fucked up in my book. I think the discussion about who is more generally fucked up (customers or providers [strippers or escorts]) is just a lot of BS. I really have no stronger sympathy for providers or customers... both choose to engage wiliingly and know the risks (including the risk of violence). Customers and providers play equal roles and take on equal responsibility in the sex for money trade in my eyes (sans those who are forced into the role of providers).
I have nothing against providers or customers but nor do I have a lot of sympathy for one group bashing the other - providers need customers and vice versa.
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Re:Strippers vs. Escorts: Who is more fucked up?
Monkey love...you know, just goin' at it like horny mammals...but it was just a joke, really. I should have said "bonobo chimps":
http://www.blockbonobofoundation.org/