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TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
{snip}Holland is now in the grips of violent reaction. Mosques and religious schools are firebombed. Emergency legislation granting new intrusive powers to security services has been enabled. The Dutch are groping for a "solution," but they are still ducking the real problem, which, to their consternation, we are dealing with more effectively and far more self-confidently. "The multicultural crisis," Magdi Allam wisely reminds us, "should teach us that only a West with a strong religious, cultural and moral identity can challenge and open itself to the 'others' in a constructive and peaceful way. And that the goal must be a system of shared values within a common identity."
Also, besides a significant portion of the Dutch population, you've also got "conservative" anti-immigration based political parties on the rise in France (got 10% of the vote), Belgium (Flemish 1/3rd are about ready to secede) and Germany.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Originally Posted by Melonie
{snip}Holland is now in the grips of violent reaction. Mosques and religious schools are firebombed. Emergency legislation granting new intrusive powers to security services has been enabled...
...Also, besides a significant portion of the Dutch population, you've also got "conservative" anti-immigration based political parties on the rise in France (got 10% of the vote), Belgium (Flemish 1/3rd are about ready to secede) and Germany.
Thank you for the link, Melonie...very interesting article!
For some other analysis along these lines, although not necessarily re: this specific incident, please see
From the right
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...2/163715.shtml
From the left-perhaps moderately left-I'm guessing due to the concluding sentence of the abstract and the ".edu" in the link as to being from a left/liberal perspective
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...ountries&hl=en
And an analysis which strikes me as being more on the neutral side
http://www.let.uu.nl/~martin.vanbrui...knowledge_.htm
PhaedrusZ
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
That director of that anti-Islam film was basically assassinated by terrorists. Give them a little rope...and they'll find a way to hang themselves.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...785004-0108619
My Son the Fanatic by Haneif Kureishi. Its a fictional story, but analyzes this problem in England, which has been going on for years. I think there is a movie based on the book as well. This is not a new problem. Closing borders is a temporary bandaid.
I lived in Holland and the Moroccans are considered the lowest socio-economic class over there. They are given the worst and lowest jobs, and treated very poorly, even by Indonesians and Turks, also a populous immigrant group. They cannot get work aside from low menial labor, and many of them turn to crime. I was robbed by a group of young Moroccan boys....
Its a very difficult and complex problem for such a progressive country. I don't know what else to say......
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
Take all of the cultural, social, and economic issues attendant to the increased levels of hispanic immigration into the U.S. over the past few decades, then multiply that by "X" and you'll get an idea of the enormous problems looming on the horizon in Europe. Absorbing a relatively homogenous group of immigrants who have the same basic religious beliefs as the majority of the citizens of the country they're entering is one thing; absorbing immigrants from a broad range of countries that have fairly diverse cultures, speak different languages, and have religious beliefs that are radically different from the majority of the citizens of the country they're entering is a whole other thing entirely - especially when almost all of the countries they're coming from are, relatively speaking, hostile towards the country they're entering, and many of the countries they look to for guidance in their views and recognize as the home of the "leaders" of their religion are either extremely hostile towards the country they're entering or in some cases, actually engaged in open conflict with same.
To the extent we continue to find ourselves in conflict with countries in the Middle East, it's going to cause us problems as well because European countries will become less and less willing to take sides with so many Islamic immigrants already living inside their borders - IMHO, it's already had just such an effect, as it was pretty obvious that at least a part of the reason that some of the countries in Europe refused to back us in Iraq was the concern they had about the reaction of the large number of Islamic immigrants they already have residing in their country.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
Westernized countries that have put the welcome mat out for refugees and immigrants from Islamic countries are facing the reality that their generousity has put their citizens at risk. They have to sacrifice their freedoms and rights as to not offend certain groups or face the fact that their lives could be in danger. Now they don't feel as if it is their right to defend themselves from a group of people that immigrated to their country because there are so many of them. Westernized, Christian based countries are passing laws to prevent extremists religious views that stomp on the culture and beliefs of the citizens in order to appear fair to everyone.
If Muslims feel that it is their right and duty to kill anyone who offends Islam, then they shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to a society who allows their citizens freedom of speech rights. These immigrants should be more respectful, they should be grateful to a country that has allowed them to join their society, live with freedom, practice their religion. They shouldn't be plotting to kill, waging jihad, committing crimes, and preaching hatred of the people of their adopted country.
I wouldn't blame Holland if they were to close their borders to Muslims and expelling anyone who is considered dangerous. It is the duty of a government to protect it's citizens. Countries should be allowed to deny entry to anyone they want. Countries shouldn't have to sit back and watch their land being taken over, their citizens be victims of violence and their culture die. Holland doesn't owe the Muslims anything. Immigrants need to understand the ways of the land that they wish to be a part of and not expect everyone else to change for them. Now these Muslims are turning Europe into the same hellhole the Middle East is. I don't want to hear about how Islam is a peaceful religion anymore, they only seem to say that AFTER a mulsim commits an act of violence. Let them hate the westerners somewhere other than the west. Serbia found this out the hard way. I am sick of hearing about how the Muslims are being victimized. They can't seem to get along with anyone. With the way alot of them behave, they need to pray 5 times a day. Honor killings, beheading, rapes, suicide bombings, jihad, oppression of women and lack of respect for other religions says it all.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
It's too bad a few miscreants who hijack a religion gives their whole people a bad name. Canada has or had a similar immigration policy to that of Europe and is facing similar difficulties dealing with them. It's a shame that their kindess and naivete is finding a way to bite them in the ass.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
Why should citizens have to deal with the anti-western attitudes of people who asked to come and join their society? Why it is that noone is seeing the real problem with the immigrant groups that don't respect the culture or the people there? Should they allow the spread of terrorism and Islamic extremists? Who are the victims? Why is the title of this post Europeans showing their true feeing when they are responding to a horrible act of violence. Why isn't it being said that the true feeling of the Muslim immigrants is what is really causing the problems? It isn't like this is an isolated event. Rushdie has a death warrant for defaming Islam, Russia, Spain, the Philipeans, England, America, Bosnia, Kashmir, and France are all dealing with the problems brought on by this one group of people. Maybe it isn't the whole world, maybe it is them.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
I have been hearing this more often:
"A dead muzzie is a peaceful muzzie. Let there be peace."
The extremists are putting people on sides.
I can understand the moderate muslim just wanting to go about their day working the job, going home to the family, playing with the kids and all the usual things people do.
Unfortunately they have to get out there with a message different from the extremists as to not be seen as part of that crowd.
There are growing examples of this. More mosques have signs like "No extremists" and "Abandon Terrorism." More Imam's are preaching against it instead of merely remaining mute.
One rarely hears about this on the television though. Now and then it shows up in the newspapers - but who reads those these days eh?
Truth is the anti-jew and terrorist crowd makes more noise and so they are the ones heard.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
By all indications, this entire situation is going to get very ugly, very soon...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rs_to_europe_1
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
I don't think the problem is one of "a few bad apples" giving the region/people/religion a bad name. The extremists we face are well-supported (the general Iraqi / Palestinian populace stays quiet and wouldn't think of turning in suspects) and are well-funded. They have the support of, at the very least, "enough" of the "regular" people. As I understand things, if Bin Laden and some moderate western leader ran for "leader of the mid-east" in a mid-east election, I'm betting Osama would sweep that election. That tells me where the hearts & minds, and the general beliefs of the people, lay.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
from the linked article ... "The problem all over Europe is that they can only do something when there's specific evidence of an attack," he said. "If people just sit around and talk about jihad, there's relatively little you can do."
IMHO this is the essential question. If the US or Europeans attempt to apply civilian "innocent until proven guilty" standards towards islamic terrorists, there is only one certain outcome. Like civilian mass murderers, the terrorists will only be charged AFTER their intended victims are already dead ! I have to have faith that, regardless of people's liberal values, when they realize that their own lives are in danger as a result of potential terrorist attacks that they will support pre-emptive action on the basis of self-defense !
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Originally Posted by Melonie
If the US or Europeans attempt to apply civilian "innocent until proven guilty" standards towards islamic terrorists, there is only one certain outcome. Like civilian mass murderers, the terrorists will only be charged AFTER their intended victims are already dead ! I have to have faith that, regardless of people's liberal values, when they realize that their own lives are in danger as a result of potential terrorist attacks that they will support pre-emptive action on the basis of self-defense !
A real questions: If it is not to be "innocent until proven guilty" or at least something like "innocent until they fire the first shot", then what criteria would you consider appropriate/wise/justified as the basis for "pre-emptive action"? And, putting the same issue in a slightly different way, what is the minimum basis you would consider adequate to justify pre-emptive action?
-Ww
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Originally Posted by Melonie
IMHO this is the essential question. If the US or Europeans attempt to apply civilian "innocent until proven guilty" standards towards islamic terrorists, there is only one certain outcome. Like civilian mass murderers, the terrorists will only be charged AFTER their intended victims are already dead ! I have to have faith that, regardless of people's liberal values, when they realize that their own lives are in danger as a result of potential terrorist attacks that they will support pre-emptive action on the basis of self-defense !
Then all would go to jail who follow the Quran and its teachings.
this is the same war thats been faught for centuries,only now its being faught PC style by our side and its going to cost us dearly over the near future.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
Old Europe largely was anti-semitic and extremely nationalistic, the latter to where they often went to war rather than settling differences in a 'civil' manner. To the Muslims the problem of the forcible creation of Israel has never been settled. However, this was created by the old antisemitism of Europe via Hitler.
To an extent another even older problem, the Crusades, seems to have given the Middle East a forewarning of long term meddling in their affairs and a consequent mistrust. Of course the Crusades was arguably the most stupid massive war ever conceived, but that was no excuse. No wonder it came out of the Dark Ages at the same time the Middle East's culture was quite superior to Europe.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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A real questions: If it is not to be "innocent until proven guilty" or at least something like "innocent until they fire the first shot", then what criteria would you consider appropriate/wise/justified as the basis for "pre-emptive action"?
probably the same criteria that the military uses to 'neutralize' probable enemy threats before the 'enemy' are able to put their plans into action thus killing their intended targets - reliable intelligence. When it comes right down to it, I have a much easier time accepting the premise that 3000 "innocent" islamic terrorist affiliated muslims might be killed by 'neutralization' efforts, as opposed to 3000 clearly innocent US civilians being killed if the islamic terrorists are allowed the opportunity to put their plans into action again !
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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When it comes right down to it, I have a much easier time accepting the premise that 3000 "innocent" islamic terrorist affiliated muslims might be killed by 'neutralization' efforts, as opposed to 3000 clearly innocent US civilians being killed if the islamic terrorists are allowed the opportunity to put their plans into action again !
so we're supposed to kill them all because they "might be ?
sorry but I think that is just absurd not to mention as is cold as a witches tit
say.... didn't a famous guy in german history want to 'neutralization' a whole bunch of "other" people ???
that similarity makes me very uncomfortable, to put it lightly
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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say.... didn't a famous guy in german history want to 'neutralization' a whole bunch of "other" people ???
Well, for that matter the muslim Indonesian gov't versus Tamil 'rebels' have killed something like 60,000 people via 'civil war', the muslim Sudanese gov't vs Darfur 'rebels' have killed countless tens of thousands ... but this doesn't count, right ?
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sorry but I think that is just absurd not to mention as is cold as a witches tit
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. Mine is admittedly iand indelibly nfluenced by losing some friends and acquaintances on 9/11. Perhaps if the islamic terrorists begin concentrating on the West coast instead of the East coast in the future ...
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Originally Posted by Wwanderer
A real questions: If it is not to be "innocent until proven guilty" or at least something like "innocent until they fire the first shot", then what criteria would you consider appropriate/wise/justified as the basis for "pre-emptive action"? And, putting the same issue in a slightly different way, what is the minimum basis you would consider adequate to justify pre-emptive action?
-Ww
(1) Reliable intelligence information which, excepting those rare circumstances involving immediate danger, i.e., imminent attack, we have either verified through other means/methods/sources or, at the very least, have done our level best to attempt to verify through same; (2) Concerning any matter of such significance and import to our basic safety, security and welfare requirements that it may legitimately be deemed to constitute a "National Security Interest of the United States of the Highest Priority"; (3) That, excepting those circumstances involving imminent danger, we have attempted (publicly, if possible) to resolve by means of diplomacy, economic sanctions, etc., such that we may legitimately be considered as having exhausted the list of possible reasonable alternatives without satisfactorily allaying our concerns. :P
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Well, for that matter the muslim Indonesian gov't versus Tamil 'rebels' have killed something like 60,000 people via 'civil war', the muslim Sudanese gov't vs Darfur 'rebels' have killed countless tens of thousands ... but this doesn't count, right ?
I ,for one ,have never said things like that don't count. I don't think I have ever heard anyone who shares my views indicate that either. Quite the opposite. We feel such actions are wrong, no matter who it is doing it.
Logicaly thinking-- if it is wrong for those used as examples above to kill and or create or take part in war, then it is also wrong for us, the U.S. Most any other conclusion defies the laws that govern logical thinking.
Is there just no other way for the U.S to deal with things than to use extermination, opps I meant 'neutralization' against an entire culture or religon ?
Again this similarity of the "New America" and another infamous group in history makes me very uncomfortable.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Is there just no other way for the U.S to deal with things than to use extermination, opps I meant 'neutralization' against an entire culture or religon ?
Well, UK prime minister Neville Chamberlain certainly experimented with other alternatives in the late 30's, with the support of like thinking politicians like Daladier in France and even some here in the US. After their experiment resulted in the loss of some 50 million lives over the following 5 years, many including myself would argue that renewing the failed experiment with islamic terrorists is a risk too large to take.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
I haven't met a muslim EVER, with whom you could speak openly on this subject or anything even remotely related - even if you are sympathetic to the problems. They come to the west for the freedom and financial benefits, and expect everyone else to bend to them. BS! I don't see them just wanting to go about their lives and blend into the society. I see them wanting everyone to be sensitive to THEIR beliefs and feelings, regardless of what the situation is.
You can't even make an unbaised factual comment without getting evil looks from them. How much sense does it make for these people to move into a society they already hate? I agree with dancedc, when ONE particular group always seems to be the one having problems with everyone else in the world, perhaps THAT group is the root of the problem. Peaceful my ass.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
Hm. I've had Muslim neighbors and inlaws who could talk quite rationally about all this stuff, fundamentalist Christian family and friends who weren't judgmental, and Jewish friends who weren't militant Zionists.
Different experiences.
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
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Originally Posted by Jay Zeno
I've had Muslim neighbors and inlaws who could talk quite rationally about all this stuff, fundamentalist Christian family and friends who weren't judgmental, and Jewish friends who weren't militant Zionists.
Me too (not the inlaws part, but you know what I mean).
It is a lot simpler and less stressful to deal with the world and think about complicated problems if you tune your perceptions to ignore the shades of gray and see everything in black and white, but speaking of failed historical "experiments" that have killed tens of millions...
-Ww
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Re: TRUE feelings of Old Europe now coming forward ?
Thank you Jay; it is possible (just possible, mind you, because nobody would want rationality to get in the way of rampant racism) that the reason Middle Easterners and Africans have "the problems" is because other parts of the world (and nobody will name names here) have simply imposed arbitrary borders, for reasons completely unrelated to the cultures and peoples that live there. Another possibility is that certain parts of the world (again, no need to point fingers, we all know who we are) viewed them (and still do, seemingly) as regions completely available for colonization, without any regard for the people that actually live in said region. I'm a little surprised that nobody here has noticed the irony (or thought it was worth commenting on) that "we" are complaining about Muslims, Iraquis, etc., being culturely demanding the US and Europe while their country is militarily occupied. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein was a really nice guy who just misunderstood. I don't even have a particularly hard stance against the war. But, come on people. Like the "western world" has any grounds to bitch about cultural exportation.