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Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Many liberals in media and elsewhere attempt to portray Islamic Terrorist Acts as the actions of a handful of extremists which does not have the support of Islamic leadership or of Islamic people in general. I wonder ...
"(snip)Geert Wilders is an MP in hiding when he is at home. He makes public appearances only when the legislature is in session. Dr. Spruyt, who has also received death threats from radical Islamists, told me that Wilders no longer has a home he can stay at. He travels with armed guards and lives on various military bases.
Exactly 911 days after the murder of another popular Dutch figure, Pim Fortuyn, the grandson of Theo Van Gogh, Vincent's brother, was slaughtered in broad daylight. He was a filmmaker who dared to do the unthinkable in Europe. He made a short film called "Submission" which dared to criticize the Islamic treatment of women.
"In broad daylight," Wilders said, " Van Gogh was shot eight or nine times, then he was stabbed several times. His throat was cut and he was almost decapitated. A five page- anti-Semitic rant was found held in place by a knife through Van Gogh's body."
Someone asked Wilders if there was any condemnation of this heinous act from moderate Muslims. He answered, " there was one or two but generally the response was silence. Television reporters went around to these moderate Muslim communities and we heard them say things like, 'he deserved it. '(snip)
(snip) In Holland, the people are starting to feel that perhaps it is not just the radicals that are the problem but Islam itself because it does not co-exist well in a democracy. It will take the determination of moderate Muslims to prove them wrong by cleansing their religion of the extremists.
How likely is that to happen? "
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
The worst is yet to come...wolves at the door.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
There is a fifth column around the world, that has become obvious.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Sorry but not all or even most Muslims (Dutch or otherwise) support terrorism as ya'll are obviously but incorrectly ALWAYS trying to imply.It is only a small fraction of Muslim people who support terrorism. The leaders of the Muslim world have repeatedly condemmed 9/11 and all other acts of terrorism. The teachings of Islam forbid the killing of innocents-- If any of the above people know even the smallest thing about the religion they'd know that, but alas they choose to continue here with their RACIST crap day after day .
The Muslim religion and most of it's followers do not support terrorism-- Too bad I can't say the same about Americans these days. 51% (every Bush voter) either knowingly or unknowingly showed their support for terrorism and a war criminal.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that the conclusion some (e.g., Mel) hint at indirectly and others (e.g., BGMM, Deo...) state more directly is correct. Let us suppose that Islam inspired terrorism is in fact supported by most Muslims, even by a large majority of Muslims if you wish. Also, define "support" as you wish; let it mean that they at least secretly approve or perhaps contribute indirectly (giving funds that end up in terrorist hands) or perhaps even contribute directly to the extent they can. Of course, probably all would admit that there are at least some exceptions some "good Muslims"...but, again for the sake of discussion, let us imagine that they are a small minority.
Now, what policy would you advocate the US govt adopting towards Muslim dominated countries, individual Muslims abroad and Muslims who are American citizens living in the US? And, how do you think we, as individual Americans, should treat Muslims (in these different categories) whom we encounter in our daily lives? Again, postulating the conclusions stated in the previous paragraph (which I don't actually believe, in case that isn't obvious) for the sake of discussion, to what extent do you think specific Muslim countries or individuals should still be given the "benefit of the doubt" (e.g, innocent until proven guilty, friend or neutral until proven foe) and to what extent do you think the opposite (e.g., guilty until proven guilty, enemy until proven friend) is justified?
Fwiiw, I think this question deserves pretty damn careful thought.
-Ww
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Do any of you even KNOW any Muslims personally?
This is like saying that all people that consider themselves Christian are going around shooting abortion doctors.
No, we can't estimate what exact number a "minority" is. I can practically guarantee that Bush and Co. certainly ARE helping to foster an environment where it becomes all to easy to hate us based on our actions in the Islamic world.
The death of Pim Fortuyn was a tragedy. I've seen "Submission" and it's indeed scathing. But again, just like the majority of Muslims (especially Westernized ones) don't participate in honor killings, a majority just want to go about their lives with their families like we do. Well, they don't drive giant SUV's and shop at Wal-Mart, but at heart we're not that different.
Melonie, if the number of Muslims that was out to get us was THAT great, something else would have happened by now, despite the "brilliance" of Bush's anti-terrorism policy.
I do believe we'll be attacked again at some point, but that's less likely than me dying in a plane crash, and I still fly, so...
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Why do you all insist in putting words in our mouths that we believe the majority of muslims are against western civilization?
CAIR states there is about 1,200,000,000 muslims in the world.
How many are radical? Or sympathize with terrorism? Or indirectly or directly aid in it with money and support? Who simply put up a sign in the window or sell a DVD movie of foreigners being massacred?
1% of the muslim population? Do you realize that is still 12,000,000 people?
And if there is over 1 billion voices out there - why is it so silent?
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Quote:
The leaders of the Muslim world have repeatedly condemmed 9/11 and all other acts of terrorism.
Bullfuckingshit. If their "outrage" was so prevalent post-9/11, let's see some quotes. Go ahead. We'll wait.
There was utter and complete silence from the oft-touted, never seen Muslim leaders of the world. Tacit approval with support from apologists here at home.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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Originally Posted by Casual Observer
Bullfuckingshit. If their "outrage" was so prevalent post-9/11, let's see some quotes. Go ahead. We'll wait.
There was utter and complete silence from the oft-touted, never seen Muslim leaders of the world. Tacit approval with support from apologists here at home.
I can give you plenty of quotes by many leaders in the Islamic and Muslim community..... But first I would like to thank TigerLilly and NinaDaisy for not being racist like other people I have just read posts and for speaking out for what is right and good.
Now here are the quotes that were said not to exist....
http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm
here is two of many that can be read in the link:
Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:
“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar:
“Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur’anic verse which reads: ‘Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind’ (Al-Ma’idah:32).”
Statement of September 13, 2001.
CasualObserver and others.... I would like to remind you that your words are read by people who have been raised in a Muslim culture as well as those who have faimly who are Muslim who mean you no harm. Many Muslims have suffered for decades and I was under the impression that the US stated its purpose was to free the opressed people of places like Iraq.... and yet here you are foaming at the mouth proclaiming very venomous thoughts about the entire Islamic world.
I encourage you to check yourself a bit and an apology for the earlier bullshit comment might be in order
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Even though it's off topic, someone else should start a thread about why we're not trying to stop the agony in the Sudan if we supposedly care so much about "freedom" in other countries.
I guess we'll have to wait until they find oil in the Sudan...
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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I guess we'll have to wait until they find oil in the Sudan...
Actually, they've found plenty of oil there, but the situation is too unstable to warrant development.
But the real important export from Sudan that has been disrupted by war is acacia gum. They're losing a lot of their production capabilities.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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Originally Posted by Casual Observer
There was utter and complete silence from the oft-touted, never seen Muslim leaders of the world. Tacit approval with support from apologists here at home.
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Originally Posted by Deogol
And if there is over 1 billion voices out there - why is it so silent?
My apologies for quoting and repeating myself, but let's say you guys are right (for the sake of discussion) and that most, the vast majority even, of those billion at least tacitly approve. So, then what? Or, more specifically:
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Originally Posted by Wwanderer
Now, what policy would you advocate the US govt adopting towards Muslim dominated countries, individual Muslims abroad and Muslims who are American citizens living in the US? And, how do you think we, as individual Americans, should treat Muslims (in these different categories) whom we encounter in our daily lives? Again, postulating the conclusions stated in the previous paragraph (which I don't actually believe, in case that isn't obvious) for the sake of discussion, to what extent do you think specific Muslim countries or individuals should still be given the "benefit of the doubt" (e.g, innocent until proven guilty, friend or neutral until proven foe) and to what extent do you think the opposite (e.g., guilty until proven guilty, enemy until proven friend) is justified?
Anyone want to have a go at answering those questions? And if the opinion of the vast majority of Muslims, whatever it is, has no practical implications, what difference does it make anyway?
-Ww
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Of possible relevance:
Bush on Muslims/Islam:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html
Pat Robertson on Bush's attitude towards Muslims/Islam:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2074749/
-Ww
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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Originally Posted by Wwanderer
Of possible relevance:
Bush on Muslims/Islam:
Pat Robertson on Bush's attitude towards Muslims/Islam:
-Ww
Ww-- great example of how the Christian Right is undermining and ruining the reputation of the Repub party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Observer
Bullfuckingshit. If their "outrage" was so prevalent post-9/11, let's see some quotes. Go ahead. We'll wait.
There was utter and complete silence from the oft-touted, never seen Muslim leaders of the world. Tacit approval with support from apologists here at home
.
Do have any proof to back that claim of utter and complete silence ?
Ofcourse you don't, because it is not true-- many, many Muslim people and leaders have spoken out against terrorism and 9/11. Need proof, here you go:
:
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Quote:
many, many Muslim people and leaders have spoken out against terrorism and 9/11. Need proof, here you go:
Well, there's "window dressing", and then again there are serious and meaningful positions taken by those actually in power or those actually weilding influence ...
IMHO in the interest of our national security the only prudent way to treat Islamics in the US and western europe today is along the same vein as Russians and Eastern Europeans were treated during the 'cold war' days - with some degree of suspicion warranted until proven otherwise ! This is certainly more level-headed, for example, than the way that Japanese Americans were treated during WW2 (where about half as many people were killed in the Pearl Harbor attack as in the 9/11 attack), but that's a whole 'nuther left coast story !
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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Originally Posted by Melonie
the only prudent way to treat Islamics in the US and western europe today is along the same vein as Russians and Eastern Europeans were treated during the 'cold war' days - with some degree of suspicion warranted until proven otherwise !
That's called DISCRIMINATION !
Also Debka is another tabloid propogada type source, not as bad as the National Poo but these rags are not worthy of reading more often than not for those of us actually wanting to get at the truth rather than wanting to buy into trash like GW and his ilk want people to do.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
one person's 'tabloid' is another person's Washington Post or New York Times !
As to the 'profiling' of young middle easterners who are here in the USA without proper documentation as being slightly more worthy of suspicion than say my grandmother as being discriminatory, what can I say.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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Originally Posted by Melonie
one person's 'tabloid' is another person's Washington Post or New York Times !
As to the 'profiling' of young middle easterners who are here in the USA without proper documentation as being slightly more worthy of suspicion than say my grandmother as being discriminatory, what can I say.
Liberals have a whole lotta complainin, but not many answers - do they?
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
^ Bullshit lie.
one example-
Liberals ( and some conserv. too) want more control of things like the ports which have 90% of the containers not being checked .
And personally I support the worker card program- I think it is a great step in keeping an eye on who comes and goes - I also think it will help prevent some other human and worker rights violations that go on now
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
^ Bullshit lie.
The ports are controlled by liberals - New York, Massachusettes, Pennsylvania and California. If they wanted it, it would be there. Being the "Enemy within" that they are, they leave it open to hussle conservatives about and then block what efforts conservatives might make to change it.
A worker card program? Liberals are against retina scans at airport customs. Worker card program... fuck (chuckle.)
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
^ More lies
Liberals have been complaining about ports not being controled properly ever since 9/11 and Bush has done little to nothing but lip service when it comes to the request for what is needed to protect the ports.
Also I said PERSONALY that I support the worker card program. I'm ok with retina scans at airports and borders too actually.
Unlike some others here I am able to cross party lines when I see a good policy but I also know bullshit when I see it and 99.9% of what conservative spout these days is fucking crap.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
Stop bickering and return to the topic, please. Thank you.
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Re: Dutch Muslims "supporting" Islamic Terrorism
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Originally Posted by Melonie
As to the 'profiling' of young middle easterners who are here in the USA without proper documentation as being slightly more worthy of suspicion than say my grandmother as being discriminatory, what can I say.
That is a vastly differnt thing than what you wrote the first time.
There is a marked difference between being suspect of all middle eastern people and being suspect of just those without proper i.d.
Your first post said all middle eastern people; which would in fact be discrimination.
The second said only those without proper documentation; which is a logical reason to consider a person suspect, regardless of culture of background.