Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Unfortunately it does come with the stereotypical meaning of this industry. I have only been in the business for a week and by no means enjoy it but have had instances when they would blatanly ask if I wanted to go home w/ them that night.
Or, for example I had one guy tell me he doesn't want dances from me he wanted to sleep with me and asked HOW MUCH to do so. I was appalled ofcourse but played it out sweet and walked away.
You are right, this is FANTASY and some men dont understand that they are only there to look at beautiful, sexy, erotic women and feel aroused. Some may think that its a place to look and touch and eventually SCORE.
Since I am still new to the industry, I just came to the understanding that MEN WILL BE MEN and any chance that they can sleep w/ a beautiful woman they will take that risk. I'm not saying all men, for I have had some very respectful men I've danced to that we tease, play and only there for fantasy kind of a deal.
I just look at it this way, some men who come there may not have anybody in there life (sexually) and just looking for some fun. It's not the right place, no doubt to look for sex but it all comes down to stereotype.
Again, this is my opinion and two cents.
XOXO
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Obviously there are very important differences between erotic dancing on stage, private/lap dancing, erotic/nude modeling, "web caming", making porn videos, doing private erotic parties (a la Pamela), fetish-only escorting, phone sex work, hostessing with various degrees of contact (does not really exist in the US), "ordinary" prostitution and so forth (see the Other Work forum for many variations). And, of course one can define terms as one wishes to make whatever distinctions are important; moreover and more concretely, many women who do one of these kinds of work would not or could not do others. In that sense, stripping need not be considered (selling) sex.
Nevertheless, the case for lumping all of these activities together in the general category of "sex work" or "commercial sex" or the "sex industry" is pretty compelling in at least some contexts, isn't it? First of all there are many many women who move back and forth between these types of work (or who have multiple jobs doing more than one of them simultaneously...dancers who also do porn, for example) and see them as being closely related alternatives. Again, the Other Work forum is full of relevant discussions and examples. Second, the outside world tends to lump these categories of work together in its attitudes (mostly disapproval and stigmatization) townards them, and obviously this is a fact which must be dealt with even if it is unfair or a misconception. Third, and perhaps most fundamentally, the motivations of the (mostly male) customers of all of these services/products is closely related or identical.
And, fwiiw, I think that the advent of private and lap dancing has greatly blurred the distinction between strippers and other "sex workers". There was a time, in the US and outside of a few big ciities, in which most dancers never had any physical contact with club customers, at least not as a part of their normal work inside the club. It was almost like "web work" is now...all visual and quite impersonal/anonymous.
-Ww
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Of course stripping isn't "Sex" - but it can still be in the sex industry. Phone sex isn't "sex" either, but it's still in there as well. Domplay, ditto. The sex industry refers to (I think) Porn, prostitution, S&M, stripping, phone sex (am I missing anything?) I would be interested in coming up with a cohesive definition though. Like jobs in which your main goal is to get the customer hard (since we've made clear that we don't really want them to actually "arrive"?)
I'm sorry, was that too crass?
By the way, Meea, I would be interested in where you work and stuff. I just left a club, and I'm not sure where to go from here (right now I'm working days, and getting up in the morning is killing me)
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wwanderer
...Third, and perhaps most fundamentally, the motivations of the (mostly male) customers of all of these services/products is closely related or identical.
-Ww
To me that's what determines if a job in the sex industry or not. Say for example you had a job modeling for a magazine. Well obviously there is difference between modeling clothes in a mainstream supermarket magazine, and modeling basically nothing in Penthouse. What's the difference? Posing in Penthouse, you are trying arouse the readers. You can make that distinction in any number of activities, acting, modeling, 1-900 numbers, dancing, if the goal is to arouse the customer sexually, it is the sex industry. I think you need to realize that the definition of sex industry is a pretty broad one to most people. That doesn't make you a bad person. Look at another industry, used car sales. Most people have a really low opnion of used car sales people. But common sense would tell you that 100% of the used car salesmen in the world are not crooks. There's probably lots of them doing an honest job that feel the same way about their industry that you do dancing. Don't let it bother you.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
I don't know, I guess I always considered stripping part of the sex industry. I mean, a girl who poses for Hustler isn't doing anything like a lapdance, but she's considered part of it, isn't she?
Some dancers need to draw a big thick line to feel OK about dancing; I've just never been one of them. Now, I've never had sex with anyone for money, or negotiated the performance of a sexual act for payment. But I sell sexiness and proximity to my body, don't I?
It would ultimately depend on your definition of "sex work." Which has, as far as I know, generally included stripping. Some might say it only includes prostitution--streetwalkers, call girls, massage parlors, etc., and others might include webgirls, dancers, and magazine models. I tend towards the inclusive definition. But then, I never had a problem considering myself a part of the "sex industry."
And being in that industry means people are going to make assumptions about you. There's definitely women doing shows online, modeling, or doing professional domination who don't have sex for money, but they certainly get propositioned as much as we do. That's a part of being in the industry. While our own boundaries may be crystal clear to us, and the services we provide non-negotiable, others consider us one and the same--and this is due in part to the fact that, as Wwanderer said, many women move between the different jobs in the industry.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meea
It kinda really bothers me that stripping is considered the "sex" industry.
The sign in front of the Hustler Hollywood store says:
Relax, It's Just Sex.
The "Sex" industry doesn't mean you're actually having sex, just like the "entertainment" industry offers only really a smattering of entertainment. :P
Alternatives? "Exotic" dance is a cheesy euphamism. Would "erotic" industry be better? Sounds like green shag carpeting and purple waterbeds to me.
Whats wrong with this country? You say sex and people hide their ears.
Relax, It's Just Sex.
... Do Pfizer and Victoria's Secret have a hand in the sex industry? I think so.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
I'm glad this was brought up. There's an excellent article on Alysabeth Clements' website dealing with this very subject.
http://www.geocities.com/alysabethc/quotes.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wwanderer
Second, the outside world tends to lump these categories of work together in its attitudes (mostly disapproval and stigmatization) townards them, and obviously this is a fact which must be dealt with even if it is unfair or a misconception. Third, and perhaps most fundamentally, the motivations of the (mostly male) customers of all of these services/products is closely related or identical.
Its this inappropriately drawn line of morality that gives a lot a dancers discomfort about referring to themselves as sex workers. I also think that its the source of a lot of the angst many dancers have towards those particular girls who are willing to go further in the mileage department than what they're comfortable with. We all like to think we're on the good side of the tracks don't we?
Quote:
And, fwiiw, I think that the advent of private and lap dancing has greatly blurred the distinction between strippers and other "sex workers". There was a time, in the US and outside of a few big ciities, in which most dancers never had any physical contact with club customers, at least not as a part of their normal work inside the club. It was almost like "web work" is now...all visual and quite impersonal/anonymous.
-Ww
With the advent of one-on-one dances, particularly contact dances, champagne rooms, extras readly available in certain clubs/markets etc. the distinctions have all but been wiped out. I've always stated that with all the hats that present day strippers wear, they are a lot more akin to hostesses than "dancers" or "strippers". Undoubtedly they're the "generalists" of the sex industry.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Calling all these types of work the "sex industry" because they all exist to serve people's sex drives is essentially the same convention/usage as calling a wide range of jobs and types of businesses the "food industry" because they all exist in order to serve people's desire/need to eat...or all of the things included in the "transportation industry" because they all exist to move people and things around, etc. A farm worker, a restaurant employee and the CEO of Kellogg's Cereals are all a part of the "food industry", but that does not mean that they or their jobs have much in common. A vegetarian organic farmer and a worker in a slaughter house production line might have almost totally different attitudes toward food, but they are still both a part of the "food industry", etc. In other words, there is really no reason to equate a stripper with a prostitute, in any sense, simply because both are a part of the "sex industry".
-Ww
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
It's working in the sex industry. It's not supposed to be sex, but at times it is for some. People fuck in some clubs. That's sex at it's best, but if asking if strip clubs "are" sex. NO.
Pamela
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Quote: I guess you could call it erotic labor or the erotic industry instead, if that makes you more comfortable
YES, thank you! That is much better and sits well with me... How is it that I didn't think of this myself?
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wwanderer
Calling all these types of work the "sex industry" because they all exist to serve people's sex drives is essentially the same convention/usage as calling a wide range of jobs and types of businesses the "food industry" because they all exist in order to serve people's desire/need to eat...or all of the things included in the "transportation industry" because they all exist to move people and things around, etc. A farm worker, a restaurant employee and the CEO of Kellogg's Cereals are all a part of the "food industry", but that does not mean that they or their jobs have much in common. A vegetarian organic farmer and a worker in a slaughter house production line might have almost totally different attitudes toward food, but they are still both a part of the "food industry", etc. In other words, there is really no reason to equate a stripper with a prostitute, in any sense, simply because both are a part of the "sex industry".
-Ww
Well said. :great:
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Well, heck, EVERYTHING is sex. Modeling is sex. Advertising is sex. Singers are sex. I'm personally familiar with a local religious leader (and these stories are rampant) who was very much a sex object to some female members of his parish. A couple of women ended up becomming so enamored with him, sexually, that they ended up in bed with him. It cost him his career and one of the women's marriage. Politicians are sex objects. Sports figures... you name 'em.
Now, we HAPPEN to refer to adult video actors, hookers, nude models, and strippers as part of the "sex" industry, and no I DON'T think that's a great label. What exactly is the difference between a nude model in a picture in Playboy versus a nude model in an advertisement in Cosmo? What exactly is the difference between a topless dancer in a "strip joint" and a topless showgirl on stage in Vegas? (Yeah, the whole plot of "Showgirls" was about that issue, if you could possibly get thru the bad acting to find the little-bitty plot laying there on the cutting room floor.)
Chloe Sevegny gave what appears to be a pretty complete hummer to Vincent Gallo in the recent movie "Brown Bunny", but she's considered a serious actress. A "porn star" gives that same hummer in a porn video and she's one notch above a hooker in most people's minds.
While we're on the subject, if I go on a date with a guy.... he "wines and dines" me, takes me to a wonderful show or great club, we have a SUPER time, and at the end of the evening we end up making love.... that's totally different from him simply giving me $100 for a quickie, right? What if he buys me diamond earrings?....
...what if I'm a college student and he's "helping me with my tuition"?????
Yeah.... the hypocracy about all of this is mind numbing. Last night, I caught a few minutes of "People vs. Larry Flint" on cable (for maybe the 50th time). In the movie, right after he gets out of jail (for the first time), he speaks at this rally and has this absolutely WONDERFUL speech about what is pornographic and what is not. Killing is a crime, but if you take a picture of it, you may win the Pulitzer Prize. On the other hand, sex is legal, but if you take a picture of THAT, you may go to jail!
Yeah..... fuck it.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Wwanderer's distinctions within the same category are useful and accurate.
Quote:
While we're on the subject, if I go on a date with a guy.... he "wines and dines" me, takes me to a wonderful show or great club, we have a SUPER time, and at the end of the evening we end up making love.... that's totally different from him simply giving me $100 for a quickie, right? What if he buys me diamond earrings?....
...what if I'm a college student and he's "helping me with my tuition"?????
Amen.
People don't like to hear it, but regardless of the means or terms of renumeration, men always pay for sex. Always. It's not good or bad, it just is.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
That depends on what the definition of "is" is.
Ha.
All joking aside, you're defining sex and the sex industry by the lowest common denominator society gives you. It's dirty, bad, turn the lights off, you nasty whore! This has been beaten into every woman from the time she was knee high to a grasshopper's ass, so it's hardly your fault. Sex and the sex industry are neither dirty nor inherently wrong; sex and the sex industry are what you make of them. That's an easy thing to say when you already know it, but hard to accept when you're struggling, so you have my best wishes. Chin up, pookie, we all like you.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
I worked with this one theater group a few years ago, and these kids started telling me that kissing, holding hands, hugging, etc was all sex. So anyone you've touched you've fucked....does that make sense? Not really. I just laughed. I am not touching their penis, and they are not even allowed to touch me, I just give dances not sex.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Rather than saying sex industry, I say that I work in the adult entertainment industry. works for me and fewer negative connotations for my lil brain. ;D
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
What's always amazing to me is that there are some women who have never been in a SC
that actually truly think that there is a brothel inside these walls. And even some dancers
believed the same thing before they became dancers. It's entertainment! It's fantasy!
That's all. I guess when something is unknown to you, imagination takes over and gets
all out of control. But that's what happens in the minds of some of the guys getting an
LD as well.
Now what goes on in those massage parlor places...?
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Myssi: Most massage parlors are really just fronts for gentleman's social clubs. We play chess, discuss the events of the day and smoke cigers... you won't tell anyone , will you?;)
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
people get hung up with the nudity aspect, and forget that it's a preformance around the art and beauty of the female body
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Why all the angst over a label? If you're comfortable with what you do, what someone else chooses to call it is meaningless. If you're not comfortable with what you do, changing the name isn't going to solve your problem.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
I always prefered the term Adult entertainer instead of sex worker because a true dancer/stripper doesn't have sex or take part in activites that could be considered sex (bj's, Hj's etc). Sex workers are (imo) people who perform sex acts such as the ones I listed above-- not people who do stage shows and no contact dances. There are some people who do both but doing adult entertainment does not cancle out the sex part and vice verses.
Contact work is a fuzzy area in my opinion and depending on the mileage I would have to put it in the sex work catagory because of the boob grabing and rubbing of the customers dick through laps (which is just another version of a HJ to me) -- but old fashioned stripping is not sex work to me, it is adult themed entertainment.
I know I might get slammed for having this opinion-- but I do see a big difference between the two types of work. And yes, I know others will disagree with my take on this subject-- so no need to go nuts putting it or me down, ok ? It's just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone. I think prostitution should be legal but seperate from stripclubs, so I'm not casting moral judgements here-- just defining what I think is the difference between a sex worker and an adult entertainer.
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxy
people get hung up with the nudity aspect, and forget that it's a preformance around the art and beauty of the female body
Isn't it funny how us strippers are looked down on for showing our bodies in the "privacy" of a club...but, a movie star who stimulates sex scenes on the big screen or takes her clothes off and stands buck naked in front of the camera for millions of people to see is respected in her "art form"?
::)
I could care less what people consider me. The only ones who have a problem with it are the ones who, most likely, shouldn't be taking their clothes off to begin with. ;)
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
No it isn't!!
ha ha oh i don't even want to think about it but i know people mostly say that we are prostitutes but we are NOT!
A friend of mine alway's just to make some jokes with me and she told me that We ride on men with a throuser on so it would be throuser fucking :-[
she asked me: "Did you ever finished while you where dancing for a customer?"
i answer her: " i did". do i have to feel embarassed now :-\ she said: "no but you made sex :'( did i ?
Oh i go to make a new threat with this one ;)
Re: Is stripping really SEX?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerlilly
Contact work is a fuzzy area in my opinion and depending on the mileage I would have to put it in the sex work catagory because of the boob grabing and rubbing of the customers dick through laps (which is just another version of a HJ to me) -- but old fashioned stripping is not sex work to me, it is adult themed entertainment.
.
.
Yes, it's this area of fuzziness that causes the concern in many relationships between dancers and their BF's. A dancer gets upset when the SO brings it up - defending the actions by saying the close contact is part of the job and there is nothing wrong with it. But when there is close contact - even mild grinding -- it is obviously done to arouse the client and the better you do it - the sexier you are, the more eye contact you make - the longer he stays in that chair. Your goal is obviously to make as much as you can but what do you think the man's goal is - the one who buys a large number of dances in a row, say 15 or more? It's an 1/8th thick piece of fabric between you and his member, one that is generally going to be felt on your body. How can any dancer in that position see herself as not part of the sex industry? Just because bare skin does not touch does not excuse the action as "just a job".
Dancers need to understand this so they can understand their SO's moods when they speak of the regular who paid for 30 dances in a row.