Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
With democracy breaking out all over... Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan,
Palestine... here's news from Saudi Arabia..
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html
Sure, only half of the municipal officials will be elected (the rest appointed)
and women weren't allowed to vote at all... and only a fourth of the
men even registered to vote...but it's a start. What country will be next?
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Dont be fooled.
Saudi is the head of the snake.Its what we are fighting,its the heartbeat that keeps the enemy alive.(IMO)
This is just thier version of kissing America's ass in the hopes Northern Korea draws more attention in the near future with nukes.
The Saudi royal family and everyone they appoint must go,and the females must be allowed to vote,before i would even begin to listen to thier last second,frantic efforts to hold power.(IMO)
If a tree could be found in the middle east,the largest branches should be reserved for hanging of the royal family of murderers.
Saudi is talking out thier ass.
I personally hope they die slower then the people of 9/11 and feel it longer.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Nothing easy or good will come out of the Saudi situation for a long time.
The situation is far too complicated and multi-faceted to make any broad statements other than the monarchy is part of the problem and part of the hope at the same time.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Holy shit! First CO, with his condemnation of taxpayers fleeced by major football teams. Now this...
I am largely in agreement with you here, BigGreen.
Could this be the dawn of a new era of accord, understanding, and peaceful sharing of mutually supportive and constructive ideas, here in Political Poo?
An end to constant bickering, furious diatribes, gloating sarcasm, and heaping portions of steaming vitriol for all?
Naaaah...
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Shhhhh... don't jinx it. I knew we could find common ground. That stadium thing really
united us though. I guess we can agree on a few things that we're against... if not what
we're in favor of.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
I also think Saudi Arabias leaders and royals are talking out their ass
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Not that I side with the Saudi royals in any way, but they are indeed now caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand they're bucking the Wahhabi mentality thus they face 'domestic unrest' from Islamic fundamentalist terrorists posing an immediate threat to their position of power. On the other hand they now see from Afghanistan and Iraq that they cannot simply continue to treat women as property without, at the very least, being held in disdain/disgust by their younger generationthus posing a future threat to their position of power. While this 'election' is pretty minor, it does set a precedent.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
LOL! The House of Saud threw the people a bone. This is NOT a major development. Do you really think the Saudi royal family is going to compromise their power structure? Oooh boy! THey get to vote for essensially city council. Who chose the candidates that would be on the ballot? This is insignificant.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
On the other hand they now see from Afghanistan and Iraq that they cannot simply continue to treat women as property without, at the very least, being held in disdain/disgust by their younger generationthus posing a future threat to their position of power.
Errr... they still do Melonie!
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsadvocate667
Errr... they still do Melonie!
Yea... I was gonna mention that.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
I think this is significant. Remember when Gorbachov mistakenly thought that the russians and eastern bloc countries would be content would just a little bit of democracy? As I said mentioned in a different thread, what happens when the average Saudi citizen looks and across the border and says, "hey, how come we can't chose our own leaders like they do in Iraq?" The Saudi royal family's days are number and I say its about time too.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
The Saudi royal family's days are number and I say its about time too.
Be careful what you wish for...
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Observer
Be careful what you wish for...
I assume you mean that a change in power in Saudi Arabia would bring a big disruption in the flow of oil, economic choas and all that. But wouldn't a democratic government in Saudi Arabia bring more long term benenfits? I've heard time and time again both President Bushes tell us what great allies the Saudis are. Really? Can anyone tell me something the Saudis have done for us?
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
^ I'm more concerned with the immediate creation of another Islamist (not Islamic) theocracy with a massive resource for funding the export of Islamist ideals and the means with which to carry out those goals. The idea that the US can somehow divest itself from Saudi Arabia politically has almost nothing to do with oil and everything to do with losing a relatively stable (if monarchial/authoritarian) ally.
We're not Belize; we can't pick our allies based on how nice they are to their own people and believe that it won't impact our position. Realist foreign policy demands that we keep our hands in the game no matter who the players are; it's a zero-sum game. My fear is that we won't have the political backbone to smooth the transition in Saudi Arabia, letting it become far worse than Iran in terms of capacity to spread terror.
The most permanent changes tend to take place over longer timeframes, so let's not expect miracles. For all those pissing on the election, remember that in this country, women couldn't vote under the original Constitution and blacks were only 2/3's a citizen. And yet we've progressed in the 217 years since it was written.
Progress, not perfection should be the goal.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
Can anyone tell me something the Saudis have done for us?
Sure. For starters, the Saudis were about the only thing which prevented a 1929 style stock market crash and subsequent depression from occurring immediately after the 9/11 attacks. The Saudis were also about the only thing which kept oil prices from doubling during quite a number of major distruptions (i.e. first Gulf war, Venezuela). The Saudis are also about the only thing which is keeping the exchange rate value of the US$ from falling off the edge of the earth, by dictating that oil will be priced in US dollars.
Quote:
Be careful what you wish for...
That's a fact !!! If some extremist regime should take over Saudi Arabia and decide to stop exporting oil to the American infidels, life in America would fall apart inside of 3 months. Imagine what would happen if available oil supplies dropped by 30% ... the gov't would have to prioritize available oil/gasoline supplies with power generation, trucking and heating getting first dibs - private vehicles would be rationed to maybe 10 gallons of gas per week, meaning most workers couldn't even get to work by friday and nobody would be wasting gas driving to strip clubs - not to mention the fact that the price of oil and oil based products would probably double inside of a week, significantly increasing the price of everything manufactured, everything delivered by truck ...
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
CO I' don't really disagree with anything you said. I'm not suggesting that our foreign policy should be governed soley by idealistic dreams. Certainly when it comes to dealing with other nations there will be times when you have to deal with the lowest sorts of scum. You just sort of hold your nose and go ahead and do it. I'm sure a lot of foreign policy is like making hot dogs. I don't really want to know what goes into it. But I do think that in our dealings with other countries we should keep in mind the ideas about freedom and self-determination our own country was founded and promote those whenever possible. Having said that, the proper balance between idealism and pragmatism is certainly one that reasonable people can disagree on.
Iran is a perfect example of what I am talking about. For years our government supported the Shah, arguing that as awful as he was, he was better than the alternative. Well now we have the alternative and we are left with exactly the kind of Islamist theocracy CO was talking about. The point is, when we reach the conclusion that the Saudi monarchy is going to change, that is the time to work to influence the future government. Personally, I think we've reached that point.
As far as Melonie's answer to my question. To be perfectly honest, I don't know enough about the stock market to know if that is right or not. I'll defer to our resident stock market guru on that one. But there are two I will point out about the Saudis. First, even the pro-Saudi Bush Administration has pointed out that there are some disturbing links between some so-called Saudi charities and funding for terrorist organizations. Second, its my understanding that the Saudi royal family has major money invested in this country. One could argue that by doing whatever they can to keep our economy strong, they are protecting their own interests.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
For years our government supported the Shah, arguing that as awful as he was, he was better than the alternative.
And if you step outside Tehran, people still would prefer the Shah.
There was no good outcome there since American influence--as is true in Saudi Arabia today--was limited.
It's complicated.
Re: Democracy (sort of) comes to Saudi Arabia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Observer
And if you step outside Tehran, people still would prefer the Shah.
Is this true? I know that there are a lot people in Iran fed up with the religious leaders there only they are afraid to say so openly. But are there really Iranians that would prefer the Shah?