This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
By bringing this case before a Federal Court and forcing a decision, the groundwork will be laid for a potential 'lose-lose'' situation for dancers. On the one hand if the court decides that locally defined 'obscenity' can be 'regulated' or 'restricted' or 'outlawed' based on the sensibilities of a majority of voters, then strip clubs will potentially be facing a tough new round of state & local andi-dance club ordinances. But on the other hand if the court decides that individual persons' rights to access something of a private and personal nature must be upheld despite the sensitivities or moral opinions of a majority of other persons who do not agree, it opens the door for legalization of prostitution.
This is basically the legal phase two of the slippery slope which began with the Texas Sodomy case, which as legal phase one opened the door to legalizing gay marriage. This was based on a new legal precedent being set in that case which decreed that the sensibilities of a majority of voters could not override an individual persons' right to perform consensual homosexual sex or to establish the actual engagement in consensual homosexual sex as a crime.
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
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Originally Posted by Melonie
By bringing this case before a Federal Court and forcing a decision, the groundwork will be laid for a potential 'lose-lose'' situation for dancers. ... But on the other hand if the court decides that individual persons' rights to access something of a private and personal nature must be upheld despite the sensitivities or moral opinions of a majority of other persons who do not agree, it opens the door for legalization of prostitution.
Although I can see some possible reasons to think so, it is not obvious to me that legalization of prostitution would a "lose situation" for dancers. Certainly there are places in the world where prostitution is legal, or effectively so, and the strip club industry is reasonably healthy. Most likely, I suppose, it is one of those "devil in the details" issues where a lot depends on the specifics of the resulting laws, regulations, enforcement and so forth.
-Ww
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
Agreed about the 'devil being in the details'
I also agree that the legalization of prostitution in the USA not having much of an impact on say the top 20% of dancers who work in super upscale show clubs. Like Europe, there will always be a demand for extremely beautiful girls in an upscale club setting.
But unfortunately, 80% of dancers simply do not have the 'attributes' to be hired in super upscale show clubs. I would wager that it is they who will be hurt the most by potential legalization of prostitution in the USA, as they would then be forced to legally compete stroke for stroke with other girls willing to provide HJ's BJ's FS etc. As with European clubs, it probably won't take long for most clubs here to gravitate towards offering sex on stage and sex for money with club customers if the legal possibility of club busts is eliminated. And like European clubs (in areas of legalized prostitution anyhow), if a girl isn't in the top 20% in regard to 'attributes' to make the cut at super upscale show clubs, and also isn't willing to offer sex for money, there really won't be any profitable role left for her in the strip club industry.
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
I have often wondered about the legality of two dancers putting on a sex show in a club, but that show would be over a large screen TV. Then basically - how far is it from cable based porn or home based porn which is certainly legal. There is no copyright law to get in the way as it would be live.
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
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Originally Posted by Melonie
I also agree that the legalization of prostitution in the USA not having much of an impact on say the top 20% of dancers who work in super upscale show clubs. Like Europe, there will always be a demand for extremely beautiful girls in an upscale club setting.
But unfortunately, 80% of dancers simply do not have the 'attributes' to be hired in super upscale show clubs. I would wager that it is they who will be hurt the most by potential legalization of prostitution in the USA, ...
Depending on those aforesaid devilish details, I imagine that it could easily turn out to more closely resemble the situations in Canada or Australia (which are more culturally similar to the US than most of Europe). My perception is that strip clubs in those two countries are pretty similar to those in the US in most respects, including the "attributes" of their dancers, despite the fact that prostitution is legal (only in parts of Australia, to be precise).
I also wonder how much difference it would make in places in the US where prostitution is illegal, but only VERY ineffectively so, and there is still a thriving strip club industry. Las Vegas, for example.
In any case, I do not think that widespread legalization of prostitution in the US is very likely at all in the foreseeable future, but the relationship between the two "industries" (the term always makes me think of huge factories, long assembly lines, ...) where they are both legal seems interesting to me. In Melbourne and Sydney, for example, posh stip clubs and equally fancy brothels often exist virtually side-by-side (in the same neighborhoods at least) and both seem to be economically viable. I find it a little puzzling myself (personally I head straight for the brothels 98% of the time in such venues), but there seems to be separate markets for the two types of establishments.
-Ww
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
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In Melbourne and Sydney, for example, posh stip clubs and equally fancy brothels often exist virtually side-by-side (in the same neighborhoods at least) and both seem to be economically viable. I find it a little puzzling myself (personally I head straight for the brothels 98% of the time in such venues), but there seems to be separate markets for the two types of establishments.
Again, there will always be a 20% market for posh strip clubs (which will hire only the best of the best of available dancers), and an 80% market with a guaranteed maximum bang for the buck. Your description of a particular part of Australia coincides pretty well with the club scene in Scandinavia, Holland etc. The only open questions are what roles if any are actually left open for girls who can't make the 'cut' to be hired in the posh strip clubs, and who also do not choose to offer sex for money in that particular region, and how far they must travel to find a less polarized business model which still has a profitable role open to them.
As to a 'thriving' strip club industry in Vegas, you really ought to check with the girls who have danced there recently who didn't make the 'cut' into the super posh clubs, and who also chose not to offer 'extras', in regard to their actual earnings potential !
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
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Originally Posted by Melonie
.... But on the other hand if the court decides that individual persons' rights to access something of a private and personal nature must be upheld despite the sensitivities or moral opinions....
Generally I'd agree with you on this without reservation. In this particular case, however, the actual facts are very troubling. The prosecution of Extreme Assoc. began after an airing of a frontline documentary about the porn industry. Highly recommended, particularly for the portion about this company. Watch the whole show online:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ows/porn/view/
(chapter 5 deals with Ex. Assoc.)
What is disturbing about the Extreme video production filmed by frontline is not that the video contained obscene content, but that the female participant (according to the documentary) had no prior knowledge of what was going to happen to her in the video, and her consensual participation is questionable. She was beaten and raped by a group of men. Frontline stopped filming unsure of whether the woman being "attakced" was truly a willing participant.
Of course, having received her paycheck, the actress/vicitm denies any coersion or nonconsensual violence, eliminating the possibility of charging the producers of a violent crime. This obscenity charge appears to be a backdoor into the criminal courthouse for this case. Typical Federal prosecuter BS. I guess when it comes to obscenicity, the Justice dept. is the first place I'd look for experts.
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
Yes there are certainly a number of unique circumstances about the particular case which the Justice Dep't chose to use as an 'example'. However, whatever the actual circumstances may be in regard to the 'actress' who appeared in the videos, this case dredges up absolutely tons of potential slippery slope peripheral issues i.e. the possibility that the principles used to arrive at a decision in this case will affect a wide range of activities which might not be obvious at first glance.
One of those slippery slope activities is the potential criminal liability of mail order sellers of adult materials who happen to (unknowingly) ship their adult product to a customer located in an area where local laws deem all adult material to be 'obscene'. As a (former) operator of an adult website through which adult video orders were accepted and shipped, a 'guilty' verdict in this case could set a precedent which would result in my being arrested by local cops, extradited to the area with the very restrictive 'obscenity' laws, put on trial, being found guilty, and paying huge fines/doing some time as a result. Of course on the flip side, if an innocent verdict comes from this case then, arguably, videos depicting bestiality or all sorts of really extreme stuff would be arguably legalized.
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
Again, there will always be a 20% market for posh strip clubs (which will hire only the best of the best of available dancers), and an 80% market with a guaranteed maximum bang for the buck. Your description of a particular part of Australia coincides pretty well with the club scene in Scandinavia, Holland etc.
Just in case I gave a misleading impression, the Austrtalian market (at least in Sydney and Melbourne, the only two cities I know well enough to comment) includes both posh upscale and dumpy/skanky downscale establishments of both types, brothels and strip clubs that is. And they tend to be colocated according to their position in the up-down/posh-dumpy spectrum. For example, the famous King's Cross area in Sydney is sort of bottom of the barrel (at least I hope it is) for both types of businesses. I am not clear enough re your description of the Scandinavian and Dutch scenes to judge whether or not this is a similarity or a difference.
In any case, my impression of the dancers who work the major big name clubs, say, on and around King Street in the Melbourne CBD is that they are perfectly fine examples of their profession...but not dramatically different from the sort of dancers you'd find working in comparable US clubs. In other words, if the fact that the Top of the Town (a well known and moderately upscale brothel) is just a couple of blocks away has had a major impact on these clubs (in any respect - dancer "attributes", atmosphere, prices, typical mileage), it is not obvious to me...which, to be honest, surprises me. Very anecdotal I know...
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As to a 'thriving' strip club industry in Vegas, you really ought to check with the girls who have danced there recently who didn't make the 'cut' into the super posh clubs, and who also chose not to offer 'extras', in regard to their actual earnings potential !
Well, I don't claim much knowledge of the LV strip clubs or how the dancers do in them, but there certainly seem to be a good number that can afford very high profile and what must be quite expensive advertising.
But, in any case, it would be interesting to know how much the clubs have changed, in whatever respect, since prostitution on around the strip has come so much more out into the open in recent years. Has it made an obvious difference in the clubs? I have no idea myself (I spend my LV time in the poker rooms mostly), just a question.
-Ww
Re: This could turn into a 'lose-lose' situation ...
I think if the chicken ranch was downtown Vegas, under the bright lights,the strip club industry would really feel it,so would the casino's.
Maybe thats why you gotta go outside of sin city to get to a legal brothel.