Re: Halliburton Audit Report
I'm not even going to start, other than to put this in perspective by saying that the 61 million under audit comprises well under 1% of the TOTAL amount of services Halliburton and its subsidiaries have and are providing for our troops in the middle east (many while being shot at), no intentional wrongdoing has been proven at this point, and Dick Cheney receives a retirement check from Halliburton the same way that millions of other retired 'employees' of other big corporations do.
The logic of "It is not reasonable to use prices negotiated in only a few days, under extremely difficult circumstances, for the entire period of performance" is the same logic used by Democrats after the California Blackouts. They basically expect an after the fact discount because the market conditions and prices fell after a fixed price contract was entered into. However, they NEVER want to see the reverse happen i.e. being charged a higher price if market conditions and prices have risen instead of fallen after the contract was entered into (thus forcing the company in question to take a loss instead), and they NEVER want to see a disruption in supply either (i.e. the company now refusing to buy at the now high market price and supply at the lower contract price to avoid taking a loss).
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Re: Halliburton Audit Report
Mel, I agree the % demonstrated is small, but then does the audit cover the entire budget of the war, or just a portion? If we "only" lost 900 million in the war, frankly I'm not that concerned (it's a tinypercentage) but I doubt that's the case.
No government project (having grown up in a defense contractor family) is immune from or even an unlikely place for waste. ..just look at Boston's Big Dig fiasco. I bet there's alot more corruption there than has been found yet or (with current leadership) will be found.
I do have SERIOUS concerns about any no-bid contracts...and especially about a former director of a company being in position of power (decision maker, even) and that company getting a no-bid contract. Even from a "perception vs reality" point the Administration shouldn't have let that happen.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
I think the reason for the 'no bid' contracts in the first place was that no other company
but Haliburton could possibly have done the work. When there's no other competition you pay
a premium.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
I think it was more that they needed the contracts FAST. Other people COULD have done it, but there probably wasn't time for a formal auction process or anything of that nature and so they asked Halliburton/KBR to do it. Could it have been handled differently? Yeah, but I can't bring myself to get too upset about it.
Note that the $61MM of overcharging originates from a Kuwaiti company. I'd guess that either Halliburton didn't care what price they paid (hey, it's all on the government bill anyway) or someone was getting kickbacks to not negotiate the price. I generally agree with Melonie that if you negotiate prices, even under duress, you're obliged to stick with the agreements. So it could be that Halliburton was a worse custodian of the government's money than they would have been of their own (surprise!).
I'm not sure it's fair to compare this situation with the California energy crisis, where the government contracted to buy power from companies who were later discovered to have illegally manipulated the market. If I poison all the wells in town secretly then contract to sell water to you at exorbitant rates, should you still have to pay my rates when you find out I was responsible?
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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I'm not sure it's fair to compare this situation with the California energy crisis, where the government contracted to buy power from companies who were later discovered to have illegally manipulated the market. If I poison all the wells in town secretly then contract to sell water to you at exorbitant rates, should you still have to pay my rates when you find out I was responsible?
In the case of proven intentional wrongdoing, I agree with you completely. However, many of the parties to the California Power situation, such as CalPine, were not found guilty of wrongdoing but were also forced to abrogate contracts and 'refund' potential profits after California W&P had signed fixed price contracts with them.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
Yep, that's a trickier case. There's no doubt that the California government screwed up its energy market big time. I would still think there's a case to be made that in a market disrupted by fraud that there's a case for renegotiating contracts which were signed in the throes of a distorted market. But I'm not sure it would fly legally.
Of course, in the case of most of these producers it's more pragmatism than anything else that drives the renegotiation--they know that the state will take its pound of flesh out of their hide some way if they stick to their guns and insist on the contractual obligations, so why not renegotiate and look like the good guy?
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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Of course, in the case of most of these producers it's more pragmatism than anything else that drives the renegotiation--they know that the state will take its pound of flesh out of their hide some way if they stick to their guns and insist on the contractual obligations, so why not renegotiate and look like the good guy?
... which is exactly what Halliburton is likely to do, if for no other reason than to avoid 'guilt by association' charges against Dick Cheney. So in reality, Cheney's former business relationship with Hallliburton will probably COST the company money rather than increasing profits as liberals constantly contend !
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
Fact is they did increase their profits at the expense of US taxpayers, consumers and lots of innocent middle eastern peoples lives. If they now have to pay for their crimes, so be it.
Another fact is that Cheney is still recieving payments from a company that got a no bid government contract and then basically commited fraud. That should seem fishy no matter what political leanings a person may have. It's not guilt by assocation, it is just simply guilt because of wrong doing.
Knowing right from wrong shouldn't be a partisian issues. But I guess it is for some rightwingers out there.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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Originally Posted by AmericanDreams
Fact is they did increase their profits at the expense of US taxpayers, consumers and lots of innocent middle eastern peoples lives. If they now have to pay for their crimes, so be it.
Another fact is that Cheney is still recieving payments from a company that got a no bid government contract and then basically commited fraud. That should seem fishy no matter what political leanings a person may have. It's not guilt by assocation, it is just simply guilt because of wrong doing.
Knowing right from wrong shouldn't be a partisian issues. But I guess it is for some rightwingers out there.
Come on AD,
You know this an intentional distortion of the facts recycled from a Kerry campaign ad. You remember the nice folks at Factcheck.org. I am sure you have been to there web site many, many times before. They debunked this gross distortion over 6 months ago. The link is http://factcheck.org/article261.html if you forgot.
By your definition a person getting a rebate from Walmart would be "recieving payments " from Walmart. Apparently truth is not in your calculus of "right and wrong".
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
Yes, I have seen that info before. Thanks for posting it anyway just in case :)
Laugh if you will, I've figured out and accepted that ANYTHING I write that is not part of the conservative party line is going to get that reaction from several people here. You all are ofcourse entitled to your opinions, even if some don't think I am entitled to the same.
But either way, I still think it's fishy. And apparently I am not alone:
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I do have SERIOUS concerns about any no-bid contracts...and especially about a former director of a company being in position of power (decision maker, even) and that company getting a no-bid contract.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
This occured in the Middle East, in that part of the world; kickbacks and bribes are a big part of doing buisness and making sure things get done. This is even more so during wartime, where the Military needs logistical support, and the people your negotiating with know that too. I'm sure the Haliburton boys wanted thier cut too and decided to take it while they can.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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I've figured out and accepted that ANYTHING I write that is not part of the conservative party line is going to get that reaction from several people here. You all are ofcourse entitled to your opinions, even if some don't think I am entitled to the same.
Truthfully, Dreams, this has very little to do with ideology and a lot to do with facts, or the distortion / invention / lack thereof.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
Facts, when not backed up by the references that created/sourced/offered them, are just opinions (perhaps educated opinions)
That's most of what we use here...
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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Originally Posted by AmericanDreams
And let's not forget that Cheney is still getting payments from Halliburton and is directly benifiting from the no bid contract that the company got from G.W.
Yeah, but tons of people across the nation are getting checks from places they used to work at too. It's called a pension check.
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Originally Posted by AmericanDreams
Gain control of the oil and get that much richer at the US tax payers, consumers and the people of Middle East's expense. That was and still is the ONLY purpose of this war, IMO.
Now, really. Do you honestly believe this?
There are a few reasons why we went to war.
1. To save face after 9/11
2. To sitmulate the econemy
3. To get better oil prices and to gain control of the oil fields over there
I will go into a little detail with each of these, but not too much, since I hate to type! If you want a full description, let me get hubby in here, and I'll dictate to him, lol.
1.) After 9/11, America was calling for blood. Who better to get it from that Hussien? Since we technically couldn't go after Bin Laden himself (since he's not a country) we decide to go after someone we could get, and to let Bin Laden know he's still being hunted.
2.) America is the only country that actually benifits from war time. Our econemy goes through the roof and everyone starts making money. Bush knew that and to stimulate the economey and to give the people the blood they were looking for, the war started.
3.) Although, it's a part of the reason we went to war, it's not a large part. There is another agenda that's going on right now and this will just be a little perk to it.
Kitana
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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Originally Posted by Melonie
Truthfully, Dreams, this has very little to do with ideology and a lot to do with facts, or the distortion / invention / lack thereof.
Uh-huh, sure ::)
Moving on now ....
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Originally Posted by kitana
There are a few reasons why we went to war.
1. To save face after 9/11
2. To sitmulate the econemy
3. To get better oil prices and to gain control of the oil fields over there
While I concede #1 and #2 are some of the reasons why GW got the vote to go to war by many members from both the right and the left , I still don't think that was HIS reason or desire for war. That I do believe was totally motivated by #3
Why ? Because I have seen plenty of evidence that this war was being planned before 9/11 even happened. It's about trying to obtain total and complete global dominance and control, which would most effectivly be done by controling vast amounts of energy sources. Iraq is just one step in that world domination plan that GW's pals have been working on since the mid 90's.
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
Originally Posted by kitana
There are a few reasons why we went to war.
1. To save face after 9/11
2. To sitmulate the econemy
3. To get better oil prices and to gain control of the oil fields over there
Well, let's put aside the fact that that is NOT how the war was sold to us, there was that whole mirrors game about WMDs and a possible 9/11 connection (we know there were WMDs in Iraq, we kept the reciepts when we installed Saddam in Iraq)...and examine the 3 things you list
1. Well, I don't see that this has succeeded very well...no international body (or even US body) has proven a 9/11 connection...so other than the redneck justice of beating the crap out of citizens that are vaguely the same color as those who may have been involved with 9/11
2. Hmm rising deficits, an ongoing war no one's quite sure when it will be over (given victory was declared over a year ago) and terrible unemployment and stock performance. Seems like a loser there too
3. Gas and oil prices at an all time high...maybe the source costs have gone down (but why should they, unless we take over Iraq as a 51st state) but the end user costs sure havent. Maybe a success for oil company profits, or a 3rd strike (loss) overall
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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Originally Posted by discretedancer
1. Well, I don't see that this has succeeded very well...no international body (or even US body) has proven a 9/11 connection...so other than the redneck justice of beating the crap out of citizens that are vaguely the same color as those who may have been involved with 9/11
Actually it succeeded very well in fact. After 9/11, everyone was calling for blood, and do you not remember how happy we all were when Saddam was caught? Well, everyone is predijuced wether you wanna admit it or not...
And beating the crap out of those same color made tons of people happy, so the way I see it, success.
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Originally Posted by discretedancer
2. Hmm rising deficits, an ongoing war no one's quite sure when it will be over (given victory was declared over a year ago) and terrible unemployment and stock performance. Seems like a loser there too
Mabye it seems that way, but tons of military personel are still working and we are all still getting tipped at work aren't we? And I didn't say the people of this country were going to make tons, I said it helps the econemy, which we never really see all of that.
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Originally Posted by discretedancer
3. Gas and oil prices at an all time high...maybe the source costs have gone down (but why should they, unless we take over Iraq as a 51st state) but the end user costs sure havent. Maybe a success for oil company profits, or a 3rd strike (loss) overall
Exactly a success for the oil companies. Because really, who cares about the little people when you get paid not to?
Kitana
Re: Halliburton Audit Report
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Originally Posted by kitana
beating the crap out of those same color made tons of people happy, so the way I see it, success.
Screw concepts of right and wrong....so if blowing up Americans makes their fanatics happy, so be it too? If America was the target and they blew up a bunch of Swiss buildings, would that be "success"?
C'mon now, what makes you feel good is NOT ALWAYS good public policy - our leaders are supposed to be more rational than bloodthirsty revenge-mongers. And I lost someone in the towers, so believe me I know the desire for revenge...but that doesn't mean it's right. Codifying such prejudiced, personal views into action is exactly how racism started and remained in this country.
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Mabye it seems that way, but tons of military personel are still working and we are all still getting tipped at work aren't we? And I didn't say the people of this country were going to make tons, I said it helps the econemy, which we never really see all of that.
Umm...Huh?
Economy going so well the Federal government had to force extensions to unemployment benefits accross the board because no one could find jobs
More of my clients are not able to pay because they don't have the money - sales are down "the economy is bad"
Most nonprofits record lower than average donations in the years since Iraq war 2 began - if people were doing well, they'd want to donate (and write off) more
Average US family income has decreased except for the very rich.
Average HR people are seeing 2:1 more resumes per position than ever before
Industry and high tech "think" jobs moving overseas, leaving downtowns empty and people on public assistance
US' biggest retailer pays so poorly that 70% of its workforce is on public assistance
Biggest budget deficits EVER, making US an even greater security risk since other countries own more of our debt than we do
Plummeting dollar
military personnel complaining because instead of (for reservists) being home at their real jobs (that pay) they're overseas on gov't stipends. We all know military don't get paid well until they become officers and go consultant
Alot of threads here about lower tips/night..not that SCs are a great indicator of the average family's financial situation
Oh, and a more objective version:
Numbers Contradict Bush's Claims of Economic Growth
In the 2005 State of the Union address, Bush said that more Americans are going back to work and that the economy is growing and healthy. The numbers don't necessarily support this assumption. Job growth over the last 18 months has fallen short of administration predictions by 1,703,000—more than one-third fewer jobs than the president's Council of Economic Advisers said would be created. Present employment levels show only 119,000 more individuals working than when Bush took office in 2001, which is effectively a decrease in employment rates, as the total civilian labor force grew by more than two million workers in 2004 alone, according to the Department of Labor. Additionally, the most recent data from the Census Bureau show that the average income for middle-class households has dropped by $1,525 since its peak in 2000. The labor force participation rate—the percentage of people either working or looking for work—fell in Jan. 2005 to a seasonally adjusted 65.8 percent, the lowest rate since 1988.
Sources: USA Today, "Fewer Americans participating in labor force or seeking jobs," Barbara Hagenbaugh, Feb. 6, 2005; Department of Labor, "Employment status of the civilian population by sex and age," Feb. 2005; Center for American Progress, "American Progress Report: Talking Points," Feb. 2, 2005; Center for American Progress, "On the January Employment Situation," Scott Lily, Feb. 4, 2005; "State of the Union," President Bush, Feb. 2, 2005; Economic Policy Institute, Feb. 4, 2005.
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Exactly a success for the oil companies. Because really, who cares about the little people when you get paid not to?
Umm...the citizens do, the government is supposd to, I do, the groups I work for do
You mean your ethics change based on who is handing you money right now? Sad.
Kitana[/QUOTE]