Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
I am just OUTRAGED that something like this can happen in the US ... to not only go against the word of 33 docs and a Nobel Peace Prize nominee doctor and kill someone.... not just kill them but STARVE them to death.... Oh God, someone needs to go down there and blow that bastard away .... I just can't express how sick this makes me feel.....
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
I've cried for terri - poor little girl (mentally she is little) deserves better. Most likely she deserves lifelong treatment, at least she deserves hand-served food and water (if her wishes were truly no extrordinary measures, water on the lips and soup are not extrordinary)
The biggest good the little soon-to-be angel has done though is made people think about living wills. I'd like to take a poll(not sure I can add one to this thread) of how many of us have a LIFE will - not a money will, but one that speaks for us medically if we are alive but incapable to speak for ourselves.
Mine says NO TECHNICAL SUPPORTS if the majority expert opinion available says there's no long-term hope. A bit more complicated than that....but basically I'd like no respirators, no CPR, etc if I were clearly terminal.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
The biggest good the little soon-to-be angel has done though is made people think about living wills. I'd like to take a poll(not sure I can add one to this thread) of how many of us have a LIFE will - not a money will, but one that speaks for us medically if we are alive but incapable to speak for ourselves
I've been holding off making comments on the Schaivo case until someone else opened this Pandora's Box. First let me say that I agree 99% with your first post, particularly in regard to re-investigating the husband's position/motives and in re-evaluating Terri's actual current medical condition. However, I'd have to say that putting a spotlight on 'living wills' is the second-best thing to come out of this case. Then again, my first choice for the BEST thing to come out of this case probably isn't interpreted as being a good thing by some.
I'm obviously referring to the premise that the best thing to come out of the Schiavo case for ALL Americans is putting a spotlight on the high-handed manner in which the judiciary pushes aside the 'will of the people' i.e. last weekend's new federal law. By my read, that new law mandated a 'de-novo' federal review of Terry's case. Now I'm no lawyer, but by 'de-novo' review the courts usually must reassess the facts of a case and not just reassess the legal procedures and decisions based on original court filings i.e. a 'de-jure' review. The new legislation also specifically instructed that food and water not be denied while a 'de-novo' review was conducted. Yet so far the Florida state court judge, the Florida federal court judge, and 2 of the 3 judges on the Atlanta fed district court have, IMHO at least, completely ignored the provisions of last weekend's new federal law. In my interpretation, the decision of these judges is akin to a decision in a 10 year old murder case appeal which refused to look at 'new' DNA evidence, but let the 10 year old murder conviction stand based solely on the original 10 year old evidence. Again I'm no attorney, but the wording of the new law is quite specific regarding a 'de-novo' review as well as reinserting the feeding tube while that 'de-novo' review is conducted.
Late last night an emergency appeal was made to the US Supreme Court, which according to the sketchy news reports so far alleges that the '14th amendment rights to due process apparently only apply if a person is able to defend their rights themselves'. This is basically the last chance for Terri, and also the last chance for the judicial branch to acknowledge the right of the US congress to make laws is at the very least on equal footing with the rights of the judicial branch to shoot them down or ignore them.
Whatever the outcome in regard to Terri, the ramifications of this case will IMHO be with us for a long time to come, particularly through 2006 election season. Like many other recent cases, a fundamental legal principle underlying Terri's case has potential implications which could go far beyond Terri herself or other people with somewhat similar medical conditions and extend into politically sensitive areas i.e. perhaps partial birth abortion.
~
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
That's a good one Mel, the legal issue was 2nd on my list....but either way works./
I think the whole thing is heavy handed. If there is no cause to arrest him or if he has not been convicted (and our courts never did that) AND he is still her legal guardian, the only role it seems courts would have is in the case of any abuse. My first reaction was "leave the husband alone" though that opinion has changed.
The way everything nowadays is a federal legislative vs judicial vs state issue - from feeding tubes to federal elections - pisses me off. I also remember learning there was a constitutional difference between state and federal responsibility....and I wonder if we will ever again respect that difference.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
But the really big issue revolves around the possibility 'Marbury vs. Madison' being revisited and clarified. This may very well get catapulted to the forefront if the US Supreme court declines to hear the case (which they've done twice already), and if Gov. Jeb Bush then orders the Florida Dep't of whatever to take custody of Terri and save her life based on his mandate under the Florida constitution to protect the lives of Florida citizens - to be quickly followed by the Florida state court judge finding the Governor in contempt of court ! We'll then have a situation which hasn't existed since Andrew Jackson was president ...
"When the courts make unconstitutional decisions, we should not enforce them. Federal courts have no army or navy... The court can opine, decide, talk about, sing, whatever it wants to do. We're not saying they can't do that. At the end of the day, we're saying the court can't enforce its opinions." Andrew Jackson
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Gotta wonder if "cruel and unusual" standard could or should be applied. If the courts, legislature, whoever ends up on top in this penis-contest agree she shouldn't be fed (or even given water! OW!) and that will certainly cause her to die (no shit), then why not be honest about it, and order her put to death?
Death by starvation is ALOT less painful than being put to sleep like a cat (not that I think cats should be killed for convenience either)
Starvation is barbraric for "the most advanced society on earth" to even consider.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Obviously some believe the "Culture of Life" people should be allowed to interject themselves into a family's personal medical decisions. Heck - we should even let the government interject it's self into a family's personal medical decisions.
People have been pulling the plug on their husbands and wives for years and years - you need to see that this case is more about politics and the discrediting of the judicial system by the conservative right. How often have we heard "activist judges this and activist judges that and the judicial system is non-responsive to the (current) will of the people!"
You people are getting played. The next thing we will be complaining about is how the government took our medical choices away - and if you don't think "The Culture of Life" isn't working it's way to take your right of medical choice away then the country deserves what it gets.
The main problem with this case is that the legislature has not enacted a law to deal with the situation of relatives disagreeing about the viability of a non-responsive person.
The law already is that the spouse has the right to make medical choices. If you all want that right taken away - then keep on talking the way you are.
(P.S. I am a little disgusted by all the man hating words used in this thread - adds real "thrust" to your arguments.)
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Deo...I don't see any gender-hating words in the thread - in the media, regarding what the huusband MAY have done (innocent until proven guilty, no matter how bad it LOOKS) sure!
Judges are NOT in place to enforce the will of the people - that's legislature's job - judges are there to interpret and enforce (not MAKE) the law. Breaking new ground is clearly the role of our executive and legislative structures, unless the "new ground" s a reasonable inerpretation of existing law
Some "activist judges" do take the "reasonable interpretation" thing way too far - and that's when appelate or supreme courts step in. Legislature maybe later to change law. The idea that we should put all national priorities on hold, and write a quick 30-day law to save Terri is far from proper, especially in wartime (though our government declared victory a long time ago) with so many domestic and international problems to deal with and TRILLIONS of dollars in debt (yet we still make tax cuts and divide up "surpluses")
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by erotictonic
I am just OUTRAGED that something like this can happen in the US ... to not only go against the word of 33 docs and a Nobel Peace Prize nominee doctor and kill someone.... not just kill them but STARVE them to death.... Oh God, someone needs to go down there and blow that bastard away .... I just can't express how sick this makes me feel.....
There is no such thing as a nobel peace prize nominee.
I do agree that calling someone who can breath and move "brain dead" is an incorrect diagnosis. There obviously is something at work in the skull. I believe she is brain damaged.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Deogol.
There are nominees
http://nobelprize.org/peace/nomination/index.html
It just does not have any real meaning. It is like a Democratic candidate for President.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by montythegeek
Deogol.
There are nominees
It just does not have any real meaning. It is like a Democratic candidate for President.
I stand corrected. Thanks!
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
I tend to avoid politics, and I dont mean to start a flame war...
I agree that how she's going to die is horrid.
But yanno? If it were me?
a) I wouldnt want to become centre stage of a media circus in that state.
b) I wouldnt want to be made to keep living if there was such little hope for any sort of "real living". I dont want to be a vegetable for the next someodd years. Shoot me now.
But thats all I really have to input. Sorry if it offends anyone.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
But yanno? If it were me?
a) I wouldnt want to become centre stage of a media circus in that state.
b) I wouldnt want to be made to keep living if there was such little hope for any sort of "real living". I dont want to be a vegetable for the next someodd years. Shoot me now.
A - total agreement here ... everybody in the Schiavo case is being trudged through the media - although all of them were free to decline interviews and TV appearances i.e. the publicity is to some degree a self inflicted wound
B - you better make sure that you write your wished down and have them notarized. If Terri had done that the entire issue would never had arisen. But in the absence of such an official statement, the question then becomes one of a 'guardian' having the right to make life and death decisions in the absence of clear and virtually unanimous medical diagnoses that the future is totally hopeless.
The slippery slope concept could immediately kick in i.e. what happens if a mother simply decides to stop feeding a baby who has whatever syndrome and lets it die, on the basis that the child will never have any 'quality of life'.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
1) When she "died" he did not administer CPR. 2) He won't allow anyone to examine her!!! 3) The doctors in court were PAID by him, likely paid off by him!!! In the town I'm from, my ex could easily pay off three sociopathic doctors who would say whatever the hell he wanted to. 33 doctors have come forth themselves to counter what these doctors have said. Why? Because they are full of it. If you believe anyone who calls themselves a doctor in Florida then you need to wake up. 4) She makes noises. She responds to music. She responds to pain. She smiles. The nurses also took journals, which the husband made certain to tear up each week. A lady has come forward who has fully recovered from a "vegetative state". People who respond are aware and are not in a vegetative state. 5) Her husband WOULD NOT allow rehabilitation in any form. WHY???? 6) The husband immediately afterward had a girlfriend and two children with another woman. 7) The husband ordered them not only to pull the tube but to have it removed from her arm. WHY? So it can't be reinserted and she will die.... Why else would it be? 8 ) Several special interest groups were begging to transport her body to France where she can be euthanized in a humane way. The husband refused, preferring for her to starve to death. 9) He got a large insurance settlement. He will get a million dollars when she dies. 10) He put restraining orders on family doctors who wanted to examine her. Why would he disallow someone to examine her? All of these things signal to me that the husband clearly did not want his wife rehabilitated, and that he wants her to die, not even humanely. No, I do not want my husband to have power-of-attorney over me if he is allowing me to lay there without being rehabilitated, and against my family's wishes. There are husbands who don't care, they would just as soon see their wives dead as alive, or wish them dead. Do you think my ex would've wanted me rehabilitated if I could've been? She is not in a vegetative state, imo. Yes, I do judge cases myself, based on evidence. OJ is guilty in my mind. Bullshit on innocent until proven guilty. The reality is that it doesn't happen this way. Money talks, power can get you out of anything.
Imo, he is the one who needs to be braindead and starving to death right now.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
By my read, that new law mandated a 'de-novo' federal review of Terry's case. Now I'm no lawyer, but by 'de-novo' review the courts usually must reassess the facts of a case and not just reassess the legal procedures and decisions based on original court filings i.e. a 'de-jure' review. The new legislation also specifically instructed that food and water not be denied while a 'de-novo' review was conducted.
This is the part that is really killing me- when a bill is pushed through Congress, then signed by the President into law.. that the Judiciary branch can get away with ignoring such. We have a body now that has proven, time and time again, it is completely above the law and the will of the people.
The biggest impact this situation has stirred is the complete knowledge of every aware American that one Supreme court judge has just taken the power to deny the power of the people/power of government. This is not the system our founding fathers have put into place.
A de-novo review of the case, as was put into law, would have required at least a few days to hear the evidence. At the very least, the entire 'de-novo' review and bill signed into law should have required at least a couple days to determine if such was even constitutional. Neither process was followed- but instead, a singular judge decided to instantly declare it 'constitutional' and in the same breath then ignore the entire writ and treat it as an appeal of the original case, thus quickly denied. It is impossible to declare federal law 'constitutional', then quickly forebear and ignore the letter of said law, which is what the Supreme court has somehow done.
Of two possible allowed outcomes, a third was invented in the moment where 1/3 of the government has now outweighed the other 2/3ds ("will of the people").
I'd prefer if such partisan politics and unprecendented procedure were to become an issue over some new tax law or social program reform, but not when there is a human life as the victim of such partisan wrangling.
From a non-political point of view, there isn't anyone that can watch the videos of Terri's bed nurse and her mother changing her pillow and admit she is in a vegetative or non-conscious state. No matter what side of the fence you stand on concerning the outcome for Terri's life, there is no one that can reasonably assert that a slow and painful starvation death should be tolerated.. worst case. Best case is to acknowledge the diagnosis of Terri's condition deserves an unhindered second opinion and allowance of review, as well as question the motives behind the husband's actions to kill his wife.
For those that havent seen her, watch this video and tell me you don't see a human response from this poor girl:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Mum.rm
Or her dislike of swab tests:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Swab.rm
I'm sorry, but anyone that thinks there isn't a conscious, aware and feeling human being behind those eyes...
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
From a non-political point of view, there isn't anyone that can watch the videos of Terri's bed nurse and her mother changing her pillow and admit she is in a vegetative or non-conscious state
Unfortunately, there is a huge political issue at work here i.e. the editorial positions taken by various 'mainstream' media outlets i.e. publishing articles regarding how starvation is a 'peaceful and painless death', while at the same time electing not to even mention the depositions/testimony from the two nurses who actually treated Terri for months and years.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
I'm sick of the lies and misinformation spread on the talk radio shows being accepted as truth. Do some research on places not run by the Republican propaganda machine and you will see the real facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erotictonic
1) When she "died" he did not administer CPR. 2) He won't allow anyone to examine her!!! 3) The doctors in court were PAID by him, likely paid off by him!!! In the town I'm from, my ex could easily pay off three sociopathic doctors who would say whatever the hell he wanted to. 33 doctors have come forth themselves to counter what these doctors have said. Why? Because they are full of it. If you believe anyone who calls themselves a doctor in Florida then you need to wake up.
Those are all lies. The doctors were court appointed doctors.
4) She makes noises. She responds to music. She responds to pain. She smiles. The nurses also took journals, which the husband made certain to tear up each week. A lady has come forward who has fully recovered from a "vegetative state". People who respond are aware and are not in a vegetative state.
Her cerebral cortex is mush and is replaced with spinal fluid. Those things are not possible without the cerebral cortex. The family interprets random reflexes with actual response.
Additionally, there is more than one type of vegetative state.
5) Her husband WOULD NOT allow rehabilitation in any form. WHY????
Another lie. She had been given 7 years of aggressive therapy.
6) The husband immediately afterward had a girlfriend and two children with another woman.
Although he is engaged, it was not an 'immediate' reaction. How long should one dwell on a 'dead' loved one before it is ok to move on?
7) The husband ordered them not only to pull the tube but to have it removed from her arm. WHY? So it can't be reinserted and she will die.... Why else would it be?
Feeding tubes can always be re-inserted.
8 ) Several special interest groups were begging to transport her body to France where she can be euthanized in a humane way. The husband refused, preferring for her to starve to death.
She is not capable of flying to France. Starvation without a cerebral cortex is not painfull.
9) He got a large insurance settlement. He will get a million dollars when she dies.
Not true, although he was given a $1M malpractice settlement, virtually all of that had been spent on treatment for her prior to 1998. The settlement was 300k in compensatory damages for him and 700k to be used for her treatment.
10) He put restraining orders on family doctors who wanted to examine her. Why would he disallow someone to examine her?
Because the family has a knack for coming up with 'doctors' who say she is treatable even though the rest of the medical community disagrees.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
He wants her cremated right after she dies. I have heard some disturbing things, which may be hearsay, about what actually may have caused her "condition". Suppposedly he was abusive , as many of his exes have stated. Terri told a friend 4 days prior she was asking for a divorce. I believe he put her in this state. He's creepy as hell. many of the nurses have done sworn affadavits that they themselves were afraid of MS and that when he came around, he closed the door and afterwards terri woudl seem agitated and frightened. If all this is true, he'll get his one day. Karma is a bitch !
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
here's some biting commentary ...
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
also what's amazing is the same people who sit outside san quentin crying with candles when some rapist/murderer/childkiller gets the needle (a very humane way to die BTW compared to their crimes) are the same people who want this woman dead. Also , can you imagine if we withheld food from a terrorist detainee as a form of "torture" interrogation, the aclu would be all over it so would all the other whiners out there. Hell, there is whining if they don't get "culturally appropriate" meals. All this poor woman needs is a feeding tube.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Coulter giving 'biting' commentary? Lol. She's a nut and everyone knows it. She sticks to op/ed pieces because she routinely gets her ass kicked whenever she tries to debate an issue.
"All this woman needs is a feeding tube"
Yes, and according to the more than 20 judges who reviewed testimony from the Schindlers, Mr. Shiavo, and several other witnesses, she would not have wanted to be kept on a feeding tube.
Spare me the tin hat crap that Mr Shiavo put her in that state. That crap only recently came out from the family as the family became desperate. He lived with the family for 4 years while they were treating her.
If you are interested in unbiased information about the situation look here, otherwise stick to the talk shows and keep your belief system safe and unchallenged.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergent D
4) She makes noises. She responds to music. She responds to pain. She smiles. The nurses also took journals, which the husband made certain to tear up each week. A lady has come forward who has fully recovered from a "vegetative state". People who respond are aware and are not in a vegetative state.
Her cerebral cortex is mush and is replaced with spinal fluid. Those things are not possible without the cerebral cortex. The family interprets random reflexes with actual response.
Well, if you believe those things are impossible with a cerebral cortex that is 'mush' then you should look at the videos.
After viewing the videos, you'll have a basis of understanding for yourself. Do you actually believe smiles, laughs and singing to music to be 'random reflexes' in direct light of a given stimuli?
You should also then argue WHY Mr. Shiavo will NOT allow an MRI or petscan? If there is this 'diagnosis' which has been hotly contested by other doctors that an initial CATSCAN ONLY is inconclusive and not determinant of the quality of her cerebral cortex... WHY has the husband DISALLOWED any other physicians from performing an MRI or petscan?
I'm 100% with you on a spinal-fluid cerebral cortex. In this specific state, reaction to stimuli is impossible. The body basically becomes a big meat engine were the cerrebelum is just beating the heart and expanding/contracting the lungs. The biggest misjustice that many physicians have cited is that the determination of the condition of her cerebral cortex is indeterminant.. at least not without further imaging of the brain... which the husband has totally disallowed.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by SthnrnGrl77
He wants her cremated right after she dies. I have heard some disturbing things, which may be hearsay, about what actually may have caused her "condition". Suppposedly he was abusive , as many of his exes have stated. Terri told a friend 4 days prior she was asking for a divorce. I believe he put her in this state. He's creepy as hell. many of the nurses have done sworn affadavits that they themselves were afraid of MS and that when he came around, he closed the door and afterwards terri woudl seem agitated and frightened. If all this is true, he'll get his one day. Karma is a bitch !
I totally 100% believe this. I was with an abuser, and trust me, if I would've been put in this state, he would still be abusing me in the hospital, and he would want me to starve to death. He shows every indication that he is an abuser.
Re: Shiavo circus in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergent D
I'm sick of the lies and misinformation spread on the talk radio shows being accepted as truth. Do some research on places not run by the Republican propaganda machine and you will see the real facts.
Those are all lies. The doctors were court appointed doctors.
Even if they were court-appointed, which I don't believe they were, it could still be a set-up. The fact that there are doctors who have come forth to claim that she can be rehabilitated is enough for me to discredit their opinions.
4) She makes noises. She responds to music. She responds to pain. She smiles. The nurses also took journals, which the husband made certain to tear up each week. A lady has come forward who has fully recovered from a "vegetative state". People who respond are aware and are not in a vegetative state.
Her cerebral cortex is mush and is replaced with spinal fluid. Those things are not possible without the cerebral cortex. The family interprets random reflexes with actual response.
Additionally, there is more than one type of vegetative state.
Obviously you haven't seen the videos. Go look at them. Smiling vividly and being aware that her mother is in the room is not random. Neither is expressing distate when someone does something she doesn't like. To think the reactions from the video are random would have to be a real long shot, Einstein.
5) Her husband WOULD NOT allow rehabilitation in any form. WHY????
Another lie. She had been given 7 years of aggressive therapy.
That's not what the family says, nor others. She was given little therapy. She never received a pep scan, even. The husband denied her the right to rehabilitation, from what I understand. He has put restraining orders against several doctors and Protective Services to intervene. Explain this one....
6) The husband immediately afterward had a girlfriend and two children with another woman.
Although he is engaged, it was not an 'immediate' reaction. How long should one dwell on a 'dead' loved one before it is ok to move on?
From what I heard, it was soon after that he "moved on". This guy looks like and displays all the actions of an abuser.
7) The husband ordered them not only to pull the tube but to have it removed from her arm. WHY? So it can't be reinserted and she will die.... Why else would it be?
Feeding tubes can always be re-inserted.
Yea no shit. But WHY would he have any reason to take it out in the first place? He is so anxious to see her die.
8 ) Several special interest groups were begging to transport her body to France where she can be euthanized in a humane way. The husband refused, preferring for her to starve to death.
She is not capable of flying to France. Starvation without a cerebral cortex is not painfull.
They fly sick people to other hospitals all the time. LOL. How do you know if starvation is painful in her condition??? You don't... it's INHUMANE. End of story. And, if she can express distate at something on a cotton swab being administered to her, then she can feel. The video shows that.
9) He got a large insurance settlement. He will get a million dollars when she dies.
Not true, although he was given a $1M malpractice settlement, virtually all of that had been spent on treatment for her prior to 1998. The settlement was 300k in compensatory damages for him and 700k to be used for her treatment.
I heard that too. He did get an insurance settlement. And he is going to get more when she dies.
10) He put restraining orders on family doctors who wanted to examine her. Why would he disallow someone to examine her?
Because the family has a knack for coming up with 'doctors' who say she is treatable even though the rest of the medical community disagrees.
He pays off doctors and lawyers ( his lawyer is a sociopath, I saw him) who support him. The family is in the right. They have found 33 doctors, including one nobel peace prize nominee, who support the fact that she can be rehabilitated. Others have also come forth who have rehabilitated from worse conditions to a full recovery. Look at Christopher Reeves. She is hardly worse than people I have seen that were retarded.
My question is this : Why would you and the husband fight the family so vehemently, when all they want to do is care for her? What's in it for you? My very educated guess, as in I have hung out with sociopaths, abusers, and criminals for 34 years of my life, is this: that he is an abuser who caused this to happen to her, and he wants her dead in order to collect money. And my second guess is that you are a sociopath yourself.