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Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
the following are straight from this month's Consumer Reports magazine/testing lab who put the three Honda Accord variants through a 'realistic' performance and mileage test program.
Honda Accord EX 4 cyl gas engine - sticker price $23,515 - horsepower 160 - accel 0-60 in 9.0 sec - tested gas mileage 24
Honda Accord EX 6 cyl gas engine - sticker price $27,365 - horsepower 240 - accel 0-60 in 7.4 sec - tested gas mileage 23
Honda Accord Hybrid gas/electric - sticker price $30,665 (before subtracting a $2000 US tax credit, net price $28,665) - horsepower (combined gas/electric) 255 - accel 0-60 in 6.9 sec - tested gas mileage 25
What does this tell you about the reality of Hybrids ?
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
I haven't seen the article. I suspect it involved a lot of city/stop-and-go driving where the gas engine doesn't get shut down much. It suggests to me that different people with different goals and different driving habits can produce different results. I do a lot of highway driving to get around to different places. I might enjoy a higher mileage differential than what a city driver would.
The proper response, of course, is to use as much gas and produce as much pollution as possible and ignore alternatives for more energy-efficient and cleaner ways to produce power.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
Well, the flip side position is that the US taxpayers handed the Hybrid owner a $2,000 gift - in exchange for which the US taxpayers received a reduction in pollution approximately proportional to the 1 to 2 MPG improvement in fuel consumption the Hybrid version of the Accord actually achieved ! The marketing position taken by Honda and most other hybrid vehicle promoters is that the hybrid battery/motor is the functional equivalent of an 'environmentally friendly supercharger' (Consumer Reports quote) to coax extra performance out of the vehicle rather than a concerted effort to increase fuel economy, and that the political correctness of hybrid vehicles helps them appeal to affluent 'upscale' auto buyers (thus Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX400h - to be tested next by Consumer Reports) much more than any actual fuel savings.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
Melonie do have alot of oil company stock or something ;)
I am anxious and awaiting DiscreetDancer's responce to this thread !
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
The reality is Honda screwed up. Hybrids are great, but they can't get better mileage when you INCREASE ENGINE SIZE as you go hybrid. Unfortunately, that's exactly what Honda did here...
Similarly with Chrysler's (now killed?) hybrid SUV offer - they didn't go for improvement in fuel economy and so the hybrid Durango SUCKS
If done right, hybrids can be a great interim technology...
Truth: I haven't got a CR subscription so I can't view the article
Truth: magazine editors tend to be very lead footed and not as scientific as EPA tests...though EPA's tests are very flawed and CR is very thorough...
Truth: Honda's Civic Hybrid gets FAR better gas mileage than the no-hybrid civic
http://www.epinions.com/content_75676487300
and
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/sp...IP&tab=2&sub=1
also
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml
vs
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml
MORE THAN 15MPG DIFFERENCE
Truth: Insight does even better, as a light 2 seater
Truth: hybrids are a "middle step" technology, supported in the interim while car companies and their customers get ready for a major change. We have other alternatives, but the infrastructure needs to be developed. Until then, I'll take 55mpg in my TDI wagon...running on BioDiesel or 50 in my Prius.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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Melonie do have alot of oil company stock or something
No, none whatsoever. However, I did contribute significantly to the $2,000 taxpayer financed 'gift' to a Hybrid owner, and feel I have a right to expect a bit more than a 1 or 2 MPG improvement in fuel consumption/reduction in exhaust emissions in exchange for that much tax money !
Also, the Civics and Insights are being 'rationed' - they were handy to get the 'pump primed', but Honda and other car makers quickly did a 'bait and switch' to hybrid vehicles they can make a fat profit from.
PS I'm still waiting for my 85mpg 80hp 3 cylinder 600cc engine Smart Roadster be legalized in the USA - after all it is a Daimler Chrysler product sold extensively in other countries ...
Actually, it appears that certain members of the Smart family WILL be available in the US in 2006 ... time to buy Daimler Chrysler stock ! But it appears they are being forced to can the 600cc 3 cylinder engine in favor of a 168hp V6 to get it legalized.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
neat car...I hope it and LOTS of other European high efficiency vehicles get the green light.
kinda makes you wonder why the fuck American car lines aren't as efficient. These cars show that speed, performance, strength (for trucks and SUVs) and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive. Europeans DEMAND the efficiency because (partially) gas prices over there aren't as low as here (and the industry isn't as subsidized).
Of course when insurance companies have to crash-test against unsafe and overly heavy (and inefficient) SUVs, there's a tougher sell each year to get small, light cars approved. That has gota change...SUVs don't have to be as large and ineficient as they are...
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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neat car...I hope it and LOTS of other European high efficiency vehicles get the green light.
Yup, particularly the 50mpg turbo diesel versions of the exact same Volkswagens and other brands already sold with gasoline engines in the USA ... where the vulnerability of the vehicle's frame and safety design is not in question whatsoever. So why aren't the turbo diesel's legal in the USA ?
(hint ... basically the same reason as the Smart and other microcars aren't legal either in the USA)
(hint #2 ... basically the same reason that 2000cc breast implants aren't legal either in the USA)
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
What kind of MPG will the v6 get? Gas tank moved to the front?! That sounds a little dangerous to me. I hope terrorists don't apply it somehow.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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Originally Posted by myssi
What kind of MPG will the v6 get? Gas tank moved to the front?! That sounds a little dangerous to me. I hope terrorists don't apply it somehow.
I would guess about 40mpg with the 161hp engine, versus about 65mpg with the 101hp engine and 85mpg with the 80hp engine. It's a function of overall vehicle weight (which goes up a lot with engine size) and typical operating condition engine efficiency (which goes down as engine size goes up in the same car chassis). As to the gas tank, who knows - it depends on how the tank is constructed, exactly where it's located and a ton of other factors. After all, Pintos blew up pretty well with a rear mounted tank !
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
Mel, imagine what they could do if that car was hybrid...maybe 60? 80? 100?
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
I haven't researched the topic. On this thread, I see one reference that says 1 mpg improvement, and four references that say 15 mpg improvement. I realize that our biases make us seek the results that we want to have, but . . .
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
What are the emmision levels did I miss those isnt that part of the hybrids advantage as well ? I have the Accord 4-cy and I am quite happy with it .
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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I haven't researched the topic. On this thread, I see one reference that says 1 mpg improvement, and four references that say 15 mpg improvement. I realize that our biases make us seek the results that we want to have, but . . .
As Discrete correctly pointed out, the 'first batch' of Japanese hybrid cars like the Honda Insight did indeed offer gas mileage improvements on the order of 15mpg. However, to achieve this, these cars had to have very small gasoline engines, thus very poor acceleration. They also had to be very lightweight with very streamlined body shape.
It is arguable that Honda and others quickly discovered that 'first round' hybrid vehicle buyers tended to be 'special cases', i.e. people whose close suburban driving needs fit well with a 'first batch' hybrid's terrible acceleration and high speed performance, plus people who were willing to sacrifice personal comfort, plus people who were willing to pay a premium price based on 'political correctness'. It is also arguable that Honda and others knew from the onset that the profit margin they could achieve on 'first round' hybrid vehicles would be small to non-existant. It is also arguable that Honda and others continued to supply a 'rationed' quantity of 'first round' hybrid vehicles with the strong hope that a US gov't subsidy to promote hybrid vehicles would be established, which indeed turned out to be the case.
With the US gov't subsidy then in place for potential hybrid vehicle buyers, Honda and others then quickly shifted their approach away from the small, light, low power 'first round' hybrids which did indeed achieve significant gas mileage improvement and exhaust emission reductions, in favor of hybrid versions of less 'weird' vehicles i.e. in Honda's case the Civic and now Accord. To minimize their 'losses' Honda also kept the available supply of 'first round' hybrid vehicles to US dealers very low, to make certain they would not have to produce and sell too many vehicles with a low to non-existant profit margin !
However, the 'second round' hybrids essentially changed the hybrid factor away from its originally subsidized purpose, and instead towards that of being an 'environmentally friendly supercharger' option added to a larger car with a bigger gasoline engine, which did little to improve gas mileage/reduce exhaust emissions. However, the profit margins on these 'second round' cars was much higher for Honda and US dealers, and the US gov't subsidy still applies, despite the fact that they are not achieving the objective the US gov't subsidy was originally created to promote (i.e. now a 1-2 mpg improvement versus the original 15 mpg improvement) !
But most importantly from a marketing standpoint, the 'second round' hybrids do actually appeal to a much wider segment of potential US car buyers, because they offer the acceleration, high speed performance, and personal comfort necessary to allow these 'second round' hybrid vehicles to leap beyond the 'special case' buyers of 'first round' hybrids. So from my skeptical point of view, the 'second round' hybrid vehicles have achieved next to nothing in the way of reduced fuel consumption and reduced exhaust emissions, and at this point amount to little more than the direct transfer of US tax dollars to primarily foreign auto companies !
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
In Honda's defense, it has been championing high-mileage/low-emissions engines since it first started making cars, without regard to government subsidies. Their CVCC engine is an earlier example. It also produced scavenging burns on motorcycle engines, completely unpromoted, in order to reduce the amounts of unburned hydrocarbons produced by the bikes.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
Hey don't get me wrong - Honda incorporates some great engineering into every engine they design from the Honda 2000 sports car down to my lawnmower. But Honda, like every other corporation, is in business to make money. To do this, they need VOLUME sales to offset the costs of that great engineering, plus the necessary US safety and emissions and performance testing required to sell vehicles in the states. Honda took a large but calculated risk that the R&D sunk into hybrid vehicles would pay off eventually, and the US gov't subsidy plus the fat profit margins of 'second round' hybrid vehicles are doing just that ! Also the CVCC technology was actually dual purpose, to increase performance as well as to reduce emissions without having to add expensive catalytic exhaust components. This idea was just taken a step further by the 'variable camshaft' technology used in my new Subaru WRX.
Like the 'first round' hybrids, when you get right down to it the vast vast VAST majority of potential US vehicle buyers are not interested in a vehicle which takes 15 seconds to go from 0 to 60 mph, and tops out at 65mph, even if it gets 100 mpg. Outside of the really big cities, America is an interstate highway culture. Also Americans are spoiled i.e. they don't want vehicles which are cramped, loud, or which vibrate like a paint shaker at high speed, which are freezing cold in winter and a sweatbox in summer - unless of course they can buy them dirt cheap i.e. the infamous Yugo or to some degree today's Kia. THIS is the real reason that that the major auto companies haven't bothered to try to import the 50 mpg diesel engine versions of standard small cars, or the 'micro-cars' - which they can successfully sell in Europe but which would have limited 'special case' appeal to potential American vehicle buyers.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
Coming from someone who chose NOT to buy hybrid...but appreciates them (I appreciate my Jetta Diesel TDIwagon much more on BioDiesel at 50MPG)
1. the actual acceleration comparison between a civic hybrid and non hybrid civic is about 11 seconds vs 9. Not exactly incomparable...2 seconds difference!
2. if hybrids were such a small market segment, why are most dealers unable to keep priuses in stock? Why are they selling for more than list price? BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT THEM AND THEYRE GOOD
3. my GM at work has a hybrid -all GMS forthe company were given them - because they're GOOD, environmentally friendly and relatively luxurious (not a BMW, but not tiny, cramped, noisy either...a very nice family car). He gets an average of 50MPG, 85MPH highway performance (I got it to 100) and wouldn't trade it for anything (this from a sworn-lifer BMW driver).
For me, it's all biofuels...free diesel (OK costs me 60c per gallon to make) from waste veggie oil - but hybrids arent bad!
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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1. the actual acceleration comparison between a civic hybrid and non hybrid civic is about 11 seconds vs 9. Not exactly incomparable...2 seconds difference!
Actually the hybrid Civic is more of a 'second round' design. The 'first round' hybrid vehicle upon which the US federal tax subsidy were based i.e. the Honda Insight not the Civic. As the acceleration time has been reduced relative to the standard gas engine equipped 'second round' hybrid vehicles, the gas mileage advantage has dropped and the exhaust emissions have increased proportionately.
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2. if hybrids were such a small market segment, why are most dealers unable to keep priuses in stock? Why are they selling for more than list price? BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT THEM AND THEYRE GOOD
reading comprehension 101 - because Honda is DELIBERATELY refusing to make very many Insights and Civics, Toyota is DELIBERATELY refusing to make very many Priuses etc. compared to the number customers would potentially buy because the profit margin sucks on these models (i.e. they are equivalent to retail outlet "loss leaders" - quart of milk for 99 cents, but limit two to a customer ?). Instead they are building more 'upscale' hybrid models like the Honda Accord and Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX400h which allow for a much higher profit margin, and hoping that impatient would-be hybrid buyers switch to them. However, these upscale models do not produce the relative fuel savings and relative exhaust emission reduction of the smaller gas engine 'first round' hybrids.
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For me, it's all biofuels...free diesel (OK costs me 60c per gallon to make) from waste veggie oil - but hybrids arent bad!
Me too - even at 1.50 per gallon after embedded biofuel subsidies are removed. (unfortunately there's not enough 'used' vegetable oil around to fuel a large scale reclamation operation). It's a better use of my tax money than handing $2000 of it to the buyer of say a Lexus RX-400h !
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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Originally Posted by Melonie
Actually the hybrid Civic is more of a 'second round' design. The 'first round' hybrid vehicle upon which the US federal tax subsidy were based i.e. the Honda Insight not the Civic. As the acceleration time has been reduced relative to the standard gas engine equipped 'second round' hybrid vehicles, the gas mileage advantage has dropped and the exhaust emissions have increased proportionately.
Not according to the EPA links I posted before and the Edmunds.com links I used in another thread - comparing Civic and Civic Hybrid
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Me too - even at 1.50 per gallon after embedded biofuel subsidies are removed. (unfortunately there's not enough 'used' vegetable oil around to fuel a large scale reclamation operation).
Well, no real biofuels subsidy in my 60c figure...it costs me 60c to get the raw methanol (generated without petroleum when possible) and lye, and the grease I use is free. Where's the subsidy?
The real crime is I'm paying road tax that covers cleanup of petroleum-based problems...but that's life. Also raises my fuel cost (if I'm honest) to $1.10 or so
I won't re-enter the hybrid subsidy argument...too many oil company and car company subsidies to make it a priority. Make the oil cos pay for military support in producing countries, eliminate the subsidies to them, then let's talk about the miniscule tax breaks (NOT SUBSIDIES) for hybrids.
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Some Hope for Hybrid Cars
:bump:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...umforusedprius
Perhaps this hybrid thing might work out after all!
The other day my gas bill was > $30, the clerk gasped and said, "wow, you must have a huge tank". I have a little 4 door sedan....discuss amongst yourselves.........
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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limited 'special case' appeal to potential American vehicle buyers.
I have to wonder why anyone would oppose hybrids in the first place ......
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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I have to wonder why anyone would oppose hybrids in the first place
As I have tried to say in several different ways on several different occasions, I am NOT OPPOSED to hybrid vehicles. What I AM opposed to is having part of my income tax money confiscated by the gov't and handed to every new hybrid vehicle owner as a $2000 gift via the federal income tax credit (without so much as a thank-you), so they can in turn hand that money to a Japanese auto maker. What gets me really steamed is that, in the vast majority of cases, the tax subsidy I'm contributing to via my income taxes results in an actual gas mileage improvement and exhaust emissions reduction for the hybrid vehicle which is marginal (i.e. less than 10 MPG improvement, some models only 1-2 MPG) because the 'second generation' of hybrid vehicles have vastly increased the size of the gasoline engines used compared to the 'first generation' Insight and Prius on which the tax credit subsidy was based.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
It's obvious to me that the Honda design has been optimized toward performance, not economy or emissions. Probably a marketing decision based on debunking past hybrid vehicle under-performance. But that's American drivers used to JackRabbit starts to be the first to get to the next red light. Unless they want to reduce gas consumption, they Won't. No matter the options given to them, short of $5.00/gallon fuel.
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
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Unless they want to reduce gas consumption, they Won't. No matter the options given to them, short of $5.00/gallon fuel.
Well, the 'option' I'm objecting to is handing these Honda Accord Hybrid buyers $2,000 in federal tax credits paid for by my tax money to lower their 0-60 acceleration time !
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Re: Some actual test results re Honda Accord Hybrid
Mel, you harp on the tax credits for Hybrids - which have been GREATLY reduced or eliminated for alot of drivers....but seem to have no problem with the "total tax credit" the gas-guzzling "small business owner" got from GW. One tax credit supports a reduction in our fuel demand, the bigger one supports wasteful vehicles. HMMMM....