Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
oh no...if anything i should be the one answering all this...i swear its a mens world out here ..here having a boyfriend is like sinning..they go by arranged marriages...they're very narrow-minded people..& there very racist towards other religions..guys here can do whatever..girls can't go out often...everything is done here by force..honestly islam is the worst religion..noone can cope with it....9/11 in an islamic prespective is considered a very good thing ..they are evil ..in kuwait men exceed the number of women..population wise & thats very unusual worldwide but its like that cuz girls here get killed ..or they die from depression...if you welcome them then they will take over trust me!!!
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
by the way i don't like to generalise..i know there are peaceful muslims out there ..but i just don't want americans to get heavily influenced by them in the nearby future << lol like thats gonna happen .. im just a paranoid person i guess!!
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxy
if you welcome them then they will take over trust me!!!
Im sorry your in what you consider such an unhappy situation.I hope you find improvment soon and discover your own place in this world.
I think its the Islamic females that are the only hope for the future of the faith.
I think they will be instramental in the changes they will make and i think bye affording them the same worldwide rights that females are entitled to,or something really freekin close,The middle east will be cleaned out,and a great place to vacation during the winter.
I wish the females in your country alot of luck,it wont be easy and its going to take time,but it will happen.I think the females of the world have said "enough"and many changes are comming for you.
Best of everything.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Some data from Freedom House:
In 2003, there were 47 countries with a Muslim majority. Of those 47 countries, only 9 were electoral democracies, leaving 38 countries or 81% were non electoral democracies. Let's look at the freedoms enjoyed by the citizens of these Muslim majority countries. Of those same 47 countries, only 2 countries (4%) are rated as "Free". 18 countires (38%) are listed as only, "Partly Free", and 27 countries (58%) are rated as "Not Free".
For comparison, among non-muslim countires, 87 countries (60%) were rated "Free", 37 countries (26%) were rated as "Partly Free" and just 21 countries (14%) were rated as "Not Free".
The Complete Report
For those that would deny the role of Islam in oppressing not just women, but all people. Check out Freedom House's Map Of Freedom. Notice how almost every Muslim country in the middle east is "Not Free"? Is this a coincidence? I've proposed that the Islamic faith, with it's opression of women, demonization of opposing faiths and intolerance of dissent is the primary cause of this. But I'm open for other explanations.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
Im sorry your in what you consider such an unhappy situation.I hope you find improvment soon and discover your own place in this world.
I think its the Islamic females that are the only hope for the future of the faith.
I think they will be instramental in the changes they will make and i think bye affording them the same worldwide rights that females are entitled to,or something really freekin close,The middle east will be cleaned out,and a great place to vacation during the winter.
I wish the females in your country alot of luck,it wont be easy and its going to take time,but it will happen.I think the females of the world have said "enough"and many changes are comming for you.
Best of everything.
i'm not muslim but it's still a very unpleasant place to live in whether you're muslim or not & i am gonna try to move out..anyway i just like to thank you for your warm and kind wishes
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
For those that would deny the role of Islam in oppressing not just women, but all people
Sigh.....No one denied that there are problems in many Muslim countries.
All we are saying is it isn't right to view all Muslim people the same way as they are not the same. Or use the problems that occur in many Muslim countries as an excuse to discriminate against people of Muslim faith
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hello~Kitty
Sigh.....No one denied that there are problems in many Muslim countries.
All we are saying is it isn't right to view all Muslim people the same way as they are not the same. Or use the problems that occur in many Muslim countries as an excuse to discriminate against people of Muslim faith
Sorry but you are wrong. You started this thread with this quote:
" American values are, by and large, very consistent with Islamic values, with a focus on family, faith, hard work, and an obligation to better self and society."
That's wrong. American's value electing their own representatives, personal freedom, the right to dissent. In neither word nor deed are Islamic values consistent with American values.
I would be interested in your answer to my question though. Why is it that so many countries with Muslim majorities are so repressive and deny their citizens' basic human rights?
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Two points:
1. I don't think HK's statement that started this thread is worth very much. Almost any society or non-fringe group within society has a collection of positive attributes which they could describe as their "goals"...Which government or internationally significant movement is AGAINST family, faith, hard work, or an obligation to better self and society? Communism, maybe, in the case of the first two? Having said that, I don't really agree with Destiny stressing the attributes of American society which are found the least in Islamic nations and saying that therefore it's a problem with ISLAM. Do Muslims in the US wish they couldn't elect representatives or express their opinons? Do their leaders in the US tell them not to do so? It's not a Muslim problem--it's a problem with the particular governments of those particular countries.
2. Looking at the map that Destiny provides, it's clear that the most repressive religion is...Confucianism! Name a Confucian country that is free! Not only that, look at how many more people are "not free" under Confucianism than under Islam! Buddhism also looks to be pretty damn oppressive...Of the 4 countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) the only one that's "not free" is the one with the military dictatorship propped up by the US!
The point being that extremist governments can take a religion or an ideology (communism is clearly the real root of the problem our Buddhist friends are having) to its extreme and rob people of what we Westerners in our enlightenment of the last few hundred years have decided are their rights. It doesn't make Islam evil or misguided, any more than the Inquisition by some misguided/greedy governments in medieval Europe makes Christianity evil.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
1. I don't think HK's statement that started this thread is worth very much.
Gee uhm thanks, LOL ! I appreciate you sharing your views though as you made several excellant points in your post :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destiny
Sorry but you are wrong. You started this thread with this quote:
" American values are, by and large, very consistent with Islamic values, with a focus on family, faith, hard work, and an obligation to better self and society."
For the 2nd or is the 3rd time...those are not my words they come from the link I posted.... and it is just your opinion that the statement is wrong...others including myself disagree with you. Learn to deal with it, please.
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I would be interested in your answer to my question though. Why is it that so many countries with Muslim majorities are so repressive and deny their citizens' basic human rights?
Because it is has been that way for centuries and change is typicaly a slow process...... for example it wasn't eventhat long ago that black people right here in the US didn't have some of the very same rights you complain about some Muslim people not being afforded and gays in the US arte STILL denied equal rights and that is right here in the good ole USA....... btw it isn't only Muslim countries that are behind on civil rights, plenty of non Muslim countries are also way behind.That is a fact even if you choose to ignore it. Take many countries in Africa for instance.
Your instance that Muslim people countries and culture are as you put it many times on this website "evil" is a clear cut proof of your blatant PREJUDICE and lack of knowledge beyond anti Muslim PROPGANDA.
wait ... grr.... I said I wasn't going to discuss this with you anymore. Be gone oh prejudice one, LOL !
H~K now adding a second person to her ignore list...Destiny now joins BigGreenMnM. Both have been added due to what I find to be extreem prejudiced views and argumentive nature.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Lurker: First of all, thanks for the intelligent dissent!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
Two points:
1. ...Having said that, I don't really agree with Destiny stressing the attributes of American society which are found the least in Islamic nations and saying that therefore it's a problem with ISLAM. Do Muslims in the US wish they couldn't elect representatives or express their opinons?
Well, if you were a "true" believer, then I would guess that no, you would desire the leaders that Allah wanted you to have. I would think that being exposed to our "western" ideas about representative government would have an impact on people though. For example, I've heard that a lot of the leaders of pro-democracy movements in China were educated in the west, specifically the U.S. This has become so much of a problem that the chinese are thinking about limiting the number of students allowed to study in the west. Personally, I could imagine something similar happening in Muslim countries as well.
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Do their leaders in the US tell them not to do so?
I bet a lot of them do. There are a lot of leaders that don't want their followers questioning the status quo, in all areas of life.
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It's not a Muslim problem--it's a problem with the particular governments of those particular countries.
So your contention then is that the fact that so many Muslim majortiy countries are very repressive is that it is just a coincidence? Could be, personally I don't think so.
Quote:
2. Looking at the map that Destiny provides, it's clear that the most repressive religion is...Confucianism! Name a Confucian country that is free! Not only that, look at how many more people are "not free" under Confucianism than under Islam! Buddhism also looks to be pretty damn oppressive...Of the 4 countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) the only one that's "not free" is the one with the military dictatorship propped up by the US!
I mentioned only Muslim countries in the middle east. However, your mentioning Confucianism and Buddhism leads to the point I was trying to make. What is it that allows these oppressive tyrannical regimes to remain in power? Is it cultural, economic, regional, ethnic, or religion? For example, if you belive in re-incarnation, might you be much more willing to put up with oppression in this life since you get another one at death? Also, if you are raised with a very authoritarian outlook on life, would that not make you more inclined to put up with a dictator who exercised total control? We are all products of both our inherent nature and our environment. However, I think that the desire for personal freedom, and the right to pursue a better life is innate in all humans. Some religions actively work to suppress that desire and that is wrong.
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The point being that extremist governments can take a religion or an ideology (communism is clearly the real root of the problem our Buddhist friends are having) to its extreme and rob people of what we Westerners in our enlightenment of the last few hundred years have decided are their rights. It doesn't make Islam evil or misguided, any more than the Inquisition by some misguided/greedy governments in medieval Europe makes Christianity evil.
While some extremist governments do use religion in the pursuit of control, I mostly disagree. I think that extremist governments find it easier to take root in places where a certain ideology is the norm, Islam being one example. The most detestable thing for me is the way some religions, Islam being an example, "get in bed" with the government in order to further their own power. Despite what has been posted here, I have no problem whatsoever with Islam requiring women to wear a head covering/veil whatever. Whether its celibate catholic priests or veiled women, any religion should be free to define itself as it sees fit. However, if you look at many muslim majority countries, Islam has gone far beyond that, taking the powers of the state to impose this on the people. That is evil.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hello~Kitty
For the 2nd or is the 3rd time...those are not my words they come from the link I posted.... and it is just your opinion that the statement is wrong...others including myself disagree with you. Learn to deal with it, please.
Oh, so you disagree with your own post. Okay.
Quote:
Because it is has been that way for centuries and change is typicaly a slow process...... btw it isn't only Muslim countries that are this way, plenty of non Muslim countries are also this way.That is a fact even if you choose to ignore it. Take many countries in Africa for instance.
How many centuries have gays been denied the "right" to marry? Is it okay if we take a few more centuries to grant them that "right"? After all change is typically a slow process ::)
Quote:
H~K now adding a second person to her ignore list...Destiny now joins BigGreenMnM. Both have been added due to what I find to be extreem prejudiced views and argumentive nature.
I've plainly stated what I base my views on. The fact that you disagree with my conclusions does not make me prejudiced, or make you more open-minded than me.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
HK, sorry--I didn't mean that to come across as harsh, just that it's not a particularly contentious statement.
Destiny--Because I'm too lazy to use the quotes function, I'll address your points in order:
1. I agree, returnees from the West will probably drive the modernization of societies in the Middle East.
2. I DON'T believe that a lot of Muslim leaders in the US tell their followers not to vote, or if they do that it's not in defense of the status quo but rather as a protest.
3. Everything else kind of falls into that hazy area where you argue that Islam is uniquely suited among major religions to be oppressive. I disagree. I don't think that the Koran is any more intolerant a text than the Bible. If you want to find a religion that really tells people they have little choice in life and that they should just accept their lot and not try to better themselves, give Hinduism a whirl. The only reason you think Islam is unique in this regard is because by historical accident we are at a point in history where Islam is the only one of the major world religions which is often closely integrated into the political structure of the countries where it is practiced. If we still lived in ancient Rome and were Christians or pagans, we'd be pretty used to all sorts of horrible behaviour practiced by and against Christians for religious reasons. If you want strict and punitive enforcement of religious mores you can also look at Judaism under the Maccabees.
Put it this way: name a country that adopted Islam, then became LESS civilized. Most of the practices you decry in Islamic nations were part and parcel of those nations before Islam arrived (assuming that the VEIL isn't the problem, but that discrimination against women is). You might argue that the Judeo-Christian societies have become more tolerant and advanced (stipulating that that IS in fact what we've become over the past few centuries) because of their religious attributes. I don't think that's why, because I don't see compelling evidence for it. But it was a single-period study conducted over 1000+ years, and we won't get another chance to do it.
As a parting shot, name the country that hasn't had a woman as head of state:
Indonesia
Pakistan
United States
Bangladesh
Turkey
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Lurker I love the quote thing, it keeps me focused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
Put it this way: name a country that adopted Islam, then became LESS civilized.
Afghanistan under the Taliban. That's not meant as an endorsement of communism but an indictment of the Taliban. To a lesser degree, Iran. Yes, the Shah was a cruel dictator, but Ayatollah Khomeni and his ideological decendants are worse. Also, to the extent that governments in other muslim nations have "cracked down" in an effort to appease the more militant elements of Islam, many Muslim countries are becoming less "civilized". Egypt certainly has drifted towards totalitarianism since the days of Sadat. I'd look up some numbers, but I'm tired.
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As a parting shot, name the country that hasn't had a woman as head of state:
Indonesia
Pakistan
United States
Bangladesh
Turkey
Uh, let me think....can I use one of my lifelines? ;D
I'm not that interested in the sex, color, religion, or sexual preference of the leader. The true test of whether a society is "civilized" or not is this. What is the daily life like of its people? Do the people live in fear or do they have hope for the future? Does the average person feel empowered to make things better, or are they resigned that things will only get worse? Using that as a standard, women and men in the U.S. are the most civilized people of those on your list.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Lurker if you really believe in what you are saying I have a good challenge for you.
Its from a former Muslim
Its from faiithfreedom.org
I receive many mails from angry Muslims who ask me to remove this site. If you disagree with this site and want me to remove it, I invite you to disprove my accusations against Muhammad and Islam. If you can show that what I say is unfounded I promise to remove this site not before confessing that I was wrong and Islam is a true religion.
I am not wealthy. But I have a house and some equity in it. Since January 2005 I promised to give
$50,000 U.S. dollars
I accused Muhammad of being:
a rapist
a pedophile (had sex with a child)
an assassin
a mass murderer
a lecher
a misogynist
a narcissist
a looter
a mentally deranged (was paranoid, heard voices, hallucinated of seeing jinns, Satan and angels, used to think he had sex with his wives when he did not, suffered from depression and had suicidal tendencies).
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
As a parting shot, name the country that hasn't had a woman as head of state:
Indonesia
Pakistan
United States
Bangladesh
Turkey
yep yep
<<rubs beer gut>>>
gotta admit,this was aaaa purty good one.
<scratch scratch>>>
But fear not,I have bread many females of staggering ages and one day,not sure wichin one itsa gonna be,but one will be your leader,im sure of it.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Destiny--those countries were all practicing Islam long before the regimes you speak of came into power. My point is that it's not the RELIGION, it's the people who make the bad government. If the US, dominated by Republicans, decided to ban abortion as an offense to God, wouldn't that be a restriction on freedom thanks to a government hewing more closely to religious beliefs? Is Christianity to blame for Hitler's Germany? He clearly had strong racial/religious beliefs guiding him...My point is not that Islamic countries aren't backwards (by our standards), but that it's not ISLAM that makes them that way. If you got trampled constantly in international affairs, you might be a rejectionist too (like, say, the US deciding the UN is no good because it actually dares to disagree with us sometimes). I agree that there are lots of reactionary governments out there in Muslim countries, I just think it's due to historical accident rather than anything innate to Islam.
As for the president thing--I'm just pointing out that your outside perception of discrimination against women may be myopic. Perhaps they look at the US and think the same thing--"How can a country with 200 years of electing leaders never have had a woman even RUN for president?"
But we'll have to agree to disagree, since we can't reset history to 800 and run endless experiments to determine if Islam really is more dogmatic/punitive/whatever.
Element--that is silly. Muhammed may or may not be all of those things. Jesus and Moses also didn't have the most pure lives, assuming you don't believe in their divinity or divine insipiration. Jesus consorted with prostitutes and disturbed the peace. Moses killed an innocent man in a fit of rage, then wiped out tons of the about-to-be Jews below Mount Sinai for idol-worshipping. I don't believe in any of these religions, but trying to discredit their belief systems by pointing to the flaws in their founders isn't particularly valuable--if you don't buy the story, they're all just deluded egomaniacs or shylocks (see L. Ron Hubbard).
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
Element--that is silly. Muhammed may or may not be all of those things. Jesus and Moses also
didn't have the most pure lives, assuming you don't believe in their divinity or divine insipiration.
Jesus consorted with prostitutes and disturbed the peace. Moses killed an innocent man in a fit of
rage, then wiped out tons of the about-to-be Jews below Mount Sinai for idol-worshipping. I don't
believe in any of these religions, but trying to discredit their belief systems by pointing to the flaws
in their founders isn't particularly valuable--if you don't buy the story, they're all just deluded
egomaniacs or shylocks (see L. Ron Hubbard).
I agree the Bible recounts of terrible acts of violence committed by Moses and Joshua and most religions have violence associated in their annals. I am not a religious person and do not support any one of them. Even though not all of the religions call for killing the disbelievers like Islam does, they are all the cause of disunity and much bloodshed of humankind.
We can't just tolerate violence in one religion because other religions also have violent teachings.
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
HK, sorry--I didn't mean that to come across as harsh, just that it's not a particularly contentious statement.
Oh I know hon , I was teasing 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
1. I agree, returnees from the West will probably drive the modernization of societies in the Middle East.
I also agree with that actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
3. Everything else kind of falls into that hazy area where you argue that Islam is uniquely suited among major religions to be oppressive. I disagree. I don't think that the Koran is any more intolerant a text than the Bible. If you want to find a religion that really tells people they have little choice in life and that they should just accept their lot and not try to better themselves, give Hinduism a whirl. The only reason you think Islam is unique in this regard is because by historical accident we are at a point in history where Islam is the only one of the major world religions which is often closely integrated into the political structure of the countries where it is practiced. If we still lived in ancient Rome and were Christians or pagans, we'd be pretty used to all sorts of horrible behaviour practiced by and against Christians for religious reasons. If you want strict and punitive enforcement of religious mores you can also look at Judaism under the Maccabees..
:thanx:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker
those countries were all practicing Islam long before the regimes you speak of came into power. My point is that it's not the RELIGION, it's the people who make the bad government. If the US, dominated by Republicans, decided to ban abortion as an offense to God, wouldn't that be a restriction on freedom thanks to a government hewing more closely to religious beliefs? Is Christianity to blame for Hitler's Germany? He clearly had strong racial/religious beliefs guiding him...My point is not that Islamic countries aren't backwards (by our standards), but that it's not ISLAM that makes them that way.
My point is not that Islamic countries aren't backwards (by our standards), but that it's not ISLAM that makes them that way. If you got trampled constantly in international affairs, you might be a rejectionist too (like, say, the US deciding the UN is no good because it actually dares to disagree with us sometimes).
Well done Lurker, well done ..... :highfive:
Re: Lots of new and convert followers of Islam in US
HK I'm not personally against Muslims just their religion because it is a doctrine of hate.
The same reason I am against Nazism.
You need to make a distinction between Muslims and Islam.
I believe Muslims are mainly victims of this barbaric cult.