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Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
Here are a variety of sources about a new FUN controversy (remember, 2 reported were to be jailed for contempt of court for not revealing their sources)...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...use-rove_x.htm White House won't comment on Rove, leak inquiry
http://online.wsj.com/public/article...s_free_feature Cooper Email Identifies Rove As a Source
http://slate.msn.com/id/2122393/ Turd Blossom Must Go
There is no moral case for keeping Karl Rove on the government payroll.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/...e.html?id=6826 Karl Rove and Liberal Illogic The Conservative Voice (R Nowak is one of their many columnists)
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4e68d3ae-f1...00e2511c8.html Top Bush adviser revealed as Plame source (Financial Times)
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/071105.html Rove's Leak Points to Bush Conspiracy
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
What's the punishment for Treason?
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Richard_Head
What's the punishment for Treason?
Death...but then you knew that, didn't you?
-Ww
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Wwanderer
Death...but then you knew that, didn't you?
-Ww
Of course I did. It'll be interesting to see if the Bush administration backs up their tough talk regarding the leak, I kind of doubt it though, there appears to be plenty of room for his type in this administration.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
First of all, unless there's been a new development since I checked the news a few minutes ago, while confirming that he spoke with Cooper, Rove's lawyer is still denying that he named Ms. Plume.
Second, its highly doubtful that even if he did name her that a crime was committed. In order to be criminal, it would have to be proved that Rove not just knew Ms. Plume worked for the CIA, but that he knew she was undercover. Most observers consider that a pretty high hurdle for a conviction.
Now, if Rove lied to the Grand Jury, he could be charged with perjury. However, sources close to former president Clinton have maintained that lieing under oath is not considered a crime in D.C.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
Any reasonable 'fact check' will show that this is a non-issue for either Novak or Rove, as they both satisfied the special prosecutor and grand jury. However, it is a tantalizing line of attack by liberals, who know full well that any public 'proof of innocence' will require disclosure of confidential/classified information ... which is NOT going to happen.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
Even if it can't be proven, there are certainly grounds for his resignation. He all but spelled out her name to Novak and Co. damn well knowing the consequences.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
The White House press conferences are a lot more fun to watch these days! It went from hell raising to "we won't comment on an investigation in process."
What a circus!
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Richard_Head
Even if it can't be proven, there are certainly grounds for his resignation. He all but spelled out her name to Novak and Co. damn well knowing the consequences.
From the newspaper articles exposing the reporter's notes, it seems Rove exposed Wilson's wife (easily found as Plume) as a CIA employee. It seems not to have explicitly stated that she was undercover. Perhaps that is the finesse that will allow an indictment and Bush not to do as promised and fire the outer. It's hard to imagine that this would not happen except for Rove's importance the administration and the whole Republican Party.
I guess one has to be blind or very cynical not to believe Rove is in deep doo-doo. Seems like deservedly so.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
somebody might want to check into exactly what the law says about revealing the identity of covert CIA agents vs. the actual status of Valerie Plame. Someone might also want to check into the fact that it was Valerie Plame who actually authorized the trip by herself and her ambassador husband to Niger ... WITHOUT the knowledge or consent of then CIA director George Tenet or the White House.
While we're at it, somebody might also want to check out the falsifications which ambassador Wilson spread around in his Times op-ed piece, in his own book etc.
"Treasure Rove
By The Prowler
Published 7/12/2005 12:10:42 AM
SPITEFULLY RECKLESS
Now that a number of reporters for national news outlets are going out of their way to attack senior White House adviser Karl Rove, one has to wonder what they could be thinking given the number of news stories these same reporters broke from the same kind of conversations Time magazine writer Matthew Cooper purportedly had with Rove on that fateful day two years ago. Never mind that much of former Ambassador Joe Wilson's supposed Niger "intelligence" was largely revealed to be baseless, or that a number of reporters who socialized with him and his friends at the time knew exactly where his wife was and what she did at the CIA.
"What Rove appears to have done was something half of the Clinton White House was doing almost every day to Republicans on the Hill if we got the chance," says a Washington lobbyist who worked at 1600 during Clinton's first term. "We pushed gossip about Newt [Gingrich]; we badmouthed Grover [Norquist]; we did what we thought they were doing to us."
And of course, they pushed stories and story leads. "I just don't see what -- beyond their screwing with Rove -- this accomplishes. And I gotta believe that there are people on our side pushing this thing, and if they are, it's not smart," say the former Clinton staffer. "This kind of thing has a way of biting you on the ass. That 60 Minutes II story on Bush's military record should be on everyone's mind right now. I don't think the media wants anyone looking into how they develop stories, and this is where this Rove thing is going." (from )
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
Posting a newsmax link to justify Rove's actions is like asking a priest if there is a god.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Sergent D
Posting a newsmax link to justify Rove's actions is like asking a priest if there is a god.
In the interest of equal time, posting a NY Times/CBS News/AP quote condemning Rove's actions is like asking Janet Reno if she had probable cause in Waco !
OK how about a "non-partisan" quote from the Senate Select Committee report itself ?
"The Senate Select Committee said, 'The report on the former ambassador's trip to Niger disseminated in March of 2002 did not change any analyst's assessment of the Niger-Iraq uranium deal. For most analysts the information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal (snip)"
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
Rove is a master of dirty tricks, to think he didn't/couldn't leak this info is being naive, check out these links if you want some past examples of his exploits:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/fre...0503_rove.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1101.html
Even if he is able to avoid an indictment on the leak by playing the semantics game he's still looking at possible perjury charges, and if nothing else it's sleazy politics, anyway you paint it it is a huge black eye to the adminstration.
How can you keep someone like that in the administration and keep any credibility?
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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How can you keep someone like that in the administration and keep any credibility?
And herein lies a major fallacy ... believing that GWB could EVER 'earn' genuine credibility with liberals no matter what he did (short of acting like a fellow liberal). As a result of the 2004 election, IMHO GWB no longer really CARES what liberal politicians, liberal media or liberal voters think of him - and simply proceeds to steer what he deems to be the best course despite liberal objections. Karl Rove is invaluable in this sort of adversarial political climate, and will play a major role in implementing GWB's future course i.e. Supreme Court confirmation(s) next on the plate.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
Well, it seems like y'all who don't like Bush are willing to believe anything to implicate Mr. Rove. If seems like y'all who do like Bush are willing to believe anything to keep him out of trouble.
We call that normalcy in Political Poo.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Melonie
And herein lies a major fallacy ... believing that GWB could EVER 'earn' genuine credibility with liberals no matter what he did (short of acting like a fellow liberal).
.....and that's another fallacy, he could easily gain credibility by ousting Rove and by not nominating an extremist to the supreme court. This adversarial relationship he's got going with the dems seems awful counterproductive to me, by letting Rove off easy it will only get worse.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Richard_Head
.....and that's another fallacy, he could easily gain credibility by ousting Rove and by not nominating an extremist to the supreme court. This adversarial relationship he's got going with the dems seems awful counterproductive to me, by letting Rove off easy it will only get worse.
Seems like the only way to be a credible person is to turn into a Democrat and go against everything he told the voters who elected him.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by montythegeek
Seems like the only way to be a credible person is to turn into a Democrat and go against everything he told the voters who elected him.
...and you're basing that on what? all the times Bush has reached out to the democrats? like when, umm, oh that's right he has NEVER reached out to the democrats. Didn't he also tell the voters that his adminstration would be above reproach when it came to ethics? Is Rove's behavior above reproach?
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
My pediction: This all will be quickly forgoten once Bush nominates someone to the Supreme Court. It's summer, it's hot, the media is sweaty and grumpy, this is all they have to chew on.
Newsweek has a prety thorough article on what Cooper told his bosses about his conversation with Rove. The article summarizes like this:
Nothing in the Cooper e-mail suggests that Rove used Plame's name or knew she was a covert operative.
Frankly, except for the hard-core Bush-haters I can't find anyone who even cares.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Melonie
As a result of the 2004 election, IMHO GWB no longer really CARES what liberal politicians, liberal media or liberal voters think of him - and simply proceeds to steer what he deems to be the best course despite liberal objections.
Absolutely. Melonie has never spoken truer words about Bush.
He is absolutely self-directed (self meaning along his neo-con puppetmasters). His administration believes in government over the people. This is the rmyopic road to disaster. A variety of points of view will present something closer to the right point of view (which has to be ferreted out) than a few points of view, ALL OF WHICH have the same slant of the world. It's like driving without checking the side and rear windows. Something is gonna sneak up on you that was not in yourt limited point of view. For example insurgency....
Just after the election Bush called for the nation coming together. Well, I guess he expected that would be done by all of us accepting his points of view and falling in. He has shown little desire to change any of his points of view. Just another year in the life of a narcissist, I guess.
Apparently neither he nor his father has any interest or talent in planning for the future, or for anyone who has different points of view than his.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Destiny
Nothing in the Cooper e-mail suggests that Rove used Plame's name or knew she was a covert operative.
Semantics, kind of like when Clinton said he never had sex with Monica. Cooper's email said "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd issues who authorized the trip." He's telling an investigative reporter classified information which all but spells out her name, he knew what he was doing. What was he even doing talking to the reporter about classified information anyways?
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Richard_Head
Semantics, kind of like when Clinton said he never had sex with Monica. Cooper's email said "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd issues who authorized the trip." He's telling an investigative reporter classified information which all but spells out her name, he knew what he was doing. What was he even doing talking to the reporter about classified information anyways?
He was doing his DIRTY TRICKS SPECIALTY. Pretty durned obviously.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Richard_Head
Semantics, kind of like when Clinton said he never had sex with Monica. Cooper's email said "it was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd issues who authorized the trip." He's telling an investigative reporter classified information which all but spells out her name, he knew what he was doing. What was he even doing talking to the reporter about classified information anyways?
Telling a reporter that someone, "apparently" works at the CIA is not the same as "outing" an undercover agent. That's not semantics, its english. The reporter called Rove, ostensibly to discuss welfare reform, then raised this issue.
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Destiny
Telling a reporter that someone, "apparently" works at the CIA is not the same as "outing" an undercover agent. That's not semantics, its english.
Don't be naive, I think it's safe to say that he knew that the reporter would fill in the blanks. Did you read the links I provided about Rove's past behavior, this is SOP for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destiny
The reporter called Rove, ostensibly to discuss welfare reform, then raised this issue.
Then Rove's reply should have been "that is classified information that I can not discuss".
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Re: Karl Rove reportedly Outed Valerie Plume as CIA Undercover
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Originally Posted by Melonie
This commentary (self-identified as news, which it is not) is yet another example of screechy garbage that grossly mischaracterizes its own sources and comes to ridiculous conclusions based on the same.
From the NewsMin source quoted:
"[quoting a source] 'The C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given [Plame's] name [along with those of other spies] to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994.'..."
leads to this conclusion:
"Valerie Plame had abandoned her covert role"
The article then again cites the same source completely contradicting its ridiculous conclusion:
" [citing sorce] 'she was moving away from 'noc' – which means non-official cover ... to a new cover as a State Department official' [at the time she was outed by Rove]' ..." The fact that Plame still maintained her NOC (undercover) status at the time Rove outed her is undisputed. Making ridiculous conclusions from obviously contradictory facts is not a dispute, it's nonsense.
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Originally Posted by destiny
...Telling a reporter that someone, "apparently" works at the CIA is not the same as "outing" an undercover agent.
I agree in general, howver when that "someone" is an undercover CIA agent, it is the same. Such is the case here. Plame maintained a NOC status when she was outed by the uber-corrupt Rove. If a high level white house official with top secret military and nuclear clearance tells a reporter that CIA agent x, who ostensibly works in a private sector or state department job "apparently works for the CIA" that's outing an agent, in any language.
"She's a spook, Bob, but you didn't hear it from me" would have been funnier, but it's all the same: Roving morality.