2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
I calculate that as $244,000 per person, including infants etc. Just how much HELP to they expect from the US? According to http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbsum.pl?cty=IS the entire population of Israel is just over 6 million with a very low rate of increase. I obtained this article from al-Jazeera, a biased source, but that doesn't mean the numbers are wrong.
Israel seeks US aid for Gaza pullout
by
Monday 11 July 2005 6:12 AM GMT
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdon...CE1A4C2B42.jpg Israel says it will begin to pullout from Gaza in August
Tel Aviv is to ask Washington for $2.2 billion to pay for the relocation of its <<illegally>> settled colonists from the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
According to Israeli political sources on Monday, the special funding would be used to house 9000 evacuated Jewish settlers in underpopulated areas of Israel.
"This is our biggest aid request in my memory - which is hardly surprising given the unprecedented scale of the Disengagement Plan," a senior Israeli political source said.
Israel's Haaretz daily, which first reported the request, said it would be formally submitted by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's top aides to US National Security Council official Elliot Abrams in a meeting scheduled for Monday evening.
Aid uncertain
The Bush administration has agreed in principle to help fund the Gaza plan, Haaretz said. Washington wants the withdrawals to consolidate a five-month-old truce and spur talks on a US-led road map for a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
But Israel is already among the largest recipients of US aid, getting around $2.8 billion annually. Much of the funding comes in the form of grants that are spent on imports from the US military.
And the normally robust Israeli-US defence ties have been shaken in recent months by Pentagon anger at Israel's sale of advanced weaponry to China. Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is due to make a fence-mending visit to Washington next week.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdon...9AD70727DC.jpgIsrael is preparing to wall off
an entire section of Jerusalem
The Bush administration has also voiced misgivings about Israel's construction of a vast separation barrier through the West Bank, fearing it could imperil future talks with the Palestinians.
Israel's cabinet on Sunday approved a section of the barrier that would separate 55,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem from the city centre.
And although Sharon casts the pullout as "disengagement" from almost five years of fighting with the Palestinians, he faces mounting hostility from far-rightists who condemn the move as a betrayal of Jewish claims on biblical land and a reward for Palestinian resistance to occupation.
Counting the cost
The cost of the Gaza withdrawal, the first time Israel will have uprooted settlements from occupied land Palestinians want returned for a state, is estimated at $1.74 billion.
The Israelis evacuated from Gaza's 21 settlements and from another four West Bank settlements are eligible for relocation funds, and have been encouraged by the government to move to the underdeveloped Galilee and Negev regions.
But Sharon has said this will require heavy investment in new infrastructure.
Including the costs of withdrawal, Israel has set a budget deficit target of 3.4% of gross domestic product - still above the 3% it had promised the United States in order to win $9 billion in local guarantees from 2003.
The government has allocated costs as an addition to the state budget and will spread them over three years to keep the deficit from rising significantly.
While welcoming any Israeli withdrawals, Palestinians suspect Sharon plans to leave them tiny Gaza while cementing Israel's hold on swathes of settlements in the West Bank.
Reuters
By
You can find this article at:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...8C03AC37F6.htm
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
I am getting sick of the rest of the world sucking at my tit - YEA - MY TIT - cuz it is MY FUCKING TAXES paying for this bullshit.
Not like the country isn't up to it's eyes in debt already. Let Isreal hall their asses out on their own dime.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Agreed in principle. However, the reality of the situation is that Israel's gov't and most Israeli citizens simply do not want to leave, that the Israel/Palestine peace initiatives are essentially driven by the US and Western Europe not Israel or Palestine, and that Israel expects to be paid off well for doing the US and Western Europe's bidding. Thus the risk factors involved if the US and Western Europe decides not to pony up the money are a) the Israeli Army rolls through Palestinian areas to subdue terrorist activities, b) Israeli settlers remain in the occupied territories, c) Hamas and Hezbollah throw their lot in with Al Queda i.e. future attacks on the US and Western Europe, and d) Jewish/Israeli controlled investments totalling 2 Trillion dollars + start migrating out of the USA with associated economic effects.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Melonie, I disagree with most everything you have written here.
The payoff for Israel is to be finally at the start of a PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE in two SEPARATE STATES with ACTION, not RHETORIC. Even though many reactionary Israeli Jewish citizens (not most) refuse to leave any plot land they are able to wrest from their neighbors or lower-class 'citizens', this has been the prime historic motivation for the uprising on the Palentinians who will never give up their quest since they have so little. There is no other viable humanistic solution, so in the end to gain any stability this has to be the goal. (Reactionary means right wing, or desiring to go back to an earlier time--here biblical.) Now THAT is the reality of the situation, not just the political influence of other countries.
In fact Israel has been quite intransigent and rebellious when it comes to reacting to the will of any other countries and the UN. One of the US Navy's ships got attacked for over four hours with US loss of life, once by the Israeli Air Force in the 1970s during a peace enforcement mission, in spite of radio communication between higher-ups; this brought only a feint of an apology weeks later after many discussions of how it was not Israel's fault. Only the US threat and follow-thru to withhold money or arms has EVER made a difference in Israel's belligerence and actions.
Further it is not true that MOST Israelis want the Jewish Gaza settlers to leave (unless you are talking Gaza Jews). In fact the march to save Gaza settlements was disbanded (temporarily?) because those marchers realized that politically and socially they were strongly in the minority. I could reference other very recent articles about that. Reactionary Israelis have historically been the basis for the lack of attaining pace with the Palestinians.
The three Gaza Jewish settlements of less than 9000 inhabitants occupy over a THIRD of this tiny stip of land, right in the middle of it, while the millions of Palestinians are living in the remainder of the Gaza strip. And that is near-concentration camp-like conditions. Whenever political forces deem it so, the Palenstinians cannot even cross the 'border' to get to their jobs or hospitals. There are certainly no significant ways to make a living in that tiny barren strip of land; there is barely any farmland or water. And in the past the Israelis would have wanted that land too. Just turn the Palenstinians in Gaza out in to the desert with a flock of sheep, I guess is their thought, if any.
"Thus the risk factors involved if the US and Western Europe decides not to pony up the money are..." This is extortion, you know. You conceptual option D - "Jewish/Israeli controlled investments ... start migrating out of the USA." This will never happen. Israel has very few other countries that will support its completely one-sided interests, politically or financially.
Hence one begins to see the attitude of the Muslim/Arab world toward the almost-blind support of the US toward Israel, regardless of the consequences to the Arabs living there. Or if you don't, then you fail to see the crux of the solution as well.
The entire concept of a "CHOSEN PEOPLE" intrinsically feeds on the demand for 'special treatment', riding rough-shod over the rights of others and deeming no need for even an apology. The Holocaust justification, as horribly terrible as it was, just feeds into that unethical frenzy. Even then other countries lost many more people than the Jews lost.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
To be blunt about it, yes I was speaking in terms of the 'majority' in regard to Israeli gov't members, Israeli military, and Israeli 'settlers' currently residing in 'Palestinian' areas as those who do not want to leave.
I agree that Israel has a different 'internal' view of Palestinian territories ... actually a view quite similar to the US view of Texas, New Mexico etc. i.e. they were occupied fair and square as the result of a war which Israel won and Palestine lost. Granted, the view of the situation by the rest of the world is somewhat different.
I'll also comment that Palestine and the rest of the middle east has a different 'internal' view of both Israeli occupied Palestinian territories and Israeli occupied Israeli territories ... namely that the Israelis have no right whatsoever to be where they are, that the country which the rest of the world refers to as Israel is actually all Palestine, and that Israelis should be forced off that land at the earliest opportunity.
As to 'special treatment', my personal opinion is that both Israeli Jews and Arab Muslims are playing the same game in that regard.
As to the 2 trillion + investment dollars controlled by Jewish/Israeli interests, that money has lots of places to move to where it would be welcomed. Switzerland, Japan and China come immediately to mind.
As you began to point out, Israel cannot exist against combined Arab opposition without a powerhouse 'sponsor'. China could serve as a very adequate 'sponsor' in place of the USA and Western Europe, with Israel injecting technology into the Chinese military machine, and with China gaining a much needed foothold close to arab oil reserves. Such a switch in Israeli 'sponsorship' would plant the seeds of WW3, but it IS a realistic possibility if the US and Western Europe withdrew financial support for Israel.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
To be blunt about it, yes I was speaking in terms of the 'majority' in regard to Israeli gov't members, Israeli military, and Israeli 'settlers' currently residing in 'Palestinian' areas as those who do not want to leave..
At thios point the majority of Israeli parliament and its citizens are hopeful that the Gaza abandonment thing will bring about some change on scenery in the long-standing stalemate. I will post an article about that if you haven't found some yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
I'll also comment that Palestine and the rest of the middle east has a different 'internal' view...namely that the Israelis have no right whatsoever to be where they are, that the country which the rest of the world refers to as Israel is actually all Palestine, and that Israelis should be forced off that land at the earliest opportunity..
This will change as the Palestinians become better organized under Abbas, given that Sharon et al will provide some tangible means of turning off some of their dictatorial powers over them and giving them some hope finally. Other governments wil be influenced by how much progress the Palestinians are able to ake in their quality of life. The traditional Palestinian goals may still be there in the older generations and in the reactionary elements, but that influence is waning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
As to 'special treatment', my personal opinion is that both Israeli Jews and Arab Muslims are playing the same game in that regard..
Well, I don't understand your view here. So I stand by exactly what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
As to the 2 trillion + investment dollars controlled by Jewish/Israeli interests, that money has lots of places to move to where it would be welcomed. Switzerland, Japan and China come immediately to mind..
You completely omitted consideration of the multiple billions annually provided by the Jewish state support systems already very well established in the USA - bequests, Israel bonds, political and media influence, etc. The center of Israel's financial world is the USA. Make no mistake about it; it is crucial in understanding the almost 100% backing of most everything Israel wants and in formulating leverage for toning down Israel's intransigence and inflated attitude as necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
As you began to point out, Israel cannot exist against combined Arab opposition without a powerhouse 'sponsor'.
You have ignored the fact that the European Jews in the Exodus after WWII (thru 1948) were armed and given intelligence by various Eurpoean and American interests and the governments as well. The Palestinians were given no help at all. At the time it seemed like a good solution to the Jewish problem in Europe. Now, however, they are well-armed. In fact they are exporting armaments and military technology to those Chinese whom you think Israel may use as an alternative investment. Ironic that all that financial capital Israel has accumulated and most of their arms have actually come from the USA grants, bequests, bonds, etc. This is just one more indication of the inflated attitude of Israel in bring trouble to others, then blaming them for it, and then withdrawing their collective hands instead of helping others out of the mess they have made others lie in. And they still refuse to acknowledge that they are a nuclear power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
China could serve as a very adequate 'sponsor' in place of the USA and Western Europe, with Israel injecting technology into the Chinese military machine, and with China gaining a much needed foothold close to arab oil reserves. Such a switch in Israeli 'sponsorship' would plant the seeds of WW3, but it IS a realistic possibility if the US and Western Europe withdrew financial support for Israel.
This sound very much like the end of the world scene painted in the Biblical book of Revelations. I do not know this will work itself out, but I would not hesitate to believe that Israel has the attitude of doing things that may well bring abut cataclysmic disasters.
After all it is their right as the Chosen Ones.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Quote:
Originally Posted by threlayer
...$2.8 billion annually. Much of the funding comes in the form of grants that are spent on imports from the US military
....
Pentagon anger at Israel's sale of advanced weaponry to China.
...But Sharon has said this will require heavy investment in new infrastructure.
This is all about kick backs to bloated US defense contractors. This administration is by far the most corrupt abuser ever of the USG/defense contractor revolving door procurement/corruption fix. And this case is no exception.
Just watch and see who gets the lion's share of this $2.2 billion in infrastructure work. Same peeps hoovering up our taxes right now in Iraq, including Cheney's partner in grotesque naked corruption, Halliburton. This is just a way for the administration to disguise funnelling vast sums of taxpayer money to cronies, and themselves, once they step back through the revolving door.
Why do you think the pentagon is pissed about the sale of technology to China? Because China should buy all their shit from us. How dare Israel sell them anything really expensive we could sell them. It's about $$$, not some bullshit patriotic policy the administration concocted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mel
China could serve as a very adequate 'sponsor' in place of the USA and Western Europe, with Israel injecting technology into the Chinese military machine, and with China gaining a much needed foothold close to arab oil reserves....would plant the seeds of WW3, but it IS a realistic possibility if the US and Western Europe withdrew financial support for Israel...
A Bond plot is more plausible than this scenario.
You think China has some great dirth of military technology or hardware that is holding them back from their true imperialist nature?
Unlike the current US policymakers, China has neither belligerent imperialist goals nor misguided notions they can manipulate a foreign culture into becoming a puppet-state. Their primary interest is getting work for their 1.4 billion and counting people. China most likely is purchasing technology from Israel as an offset to the plastic crap and DVD players Israelis are no doubt buying by the truckload. Unlike the US, Israel doesn't have an equivalent monetary instrument to US Treasury bonds to sell them as an offset. China probably isn't even all that interested in this technology anyway, but it's what Israel had to sell them.
China may have distant aspirations for partnering with their neighbor Russia to develop Siberian oil fields, but an outright invasion is laughable outside of a comic book. The only thing they truly have their eyes on is Taiwan, which is rightly part of China, not another US quasi-colony. I've never met a single Chinese national that doesn't feel Taiwan should be reunited with the PRC. And indeed for regional stability it should. The Taiwanese government is unstable and an international joke. I have no clue why we continue to sell all sorts of weapons to the whack jobs running that island. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. $$$$$$$
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melonie
To be blunt about it, yes I was speaking in terms of the 'majority' in regard to Israeli gov't members, Israeli military, and Israeli 'settlers' currently residing in 'Palestinian' areas as those who do not want to leave.
I agree that Israel has a different 'internal' view of Palestinian territories ... actually a view quite similar to the US view of Texas, New Mexico etc. i.e. they were occupied fair and square as the result of a war which Israel won and Palestine lost. Granted, the view of the situation by the rest of the world is somewhat different.
I'll also comment that Palestine and the rest of the middle east has a different 'internal' view of both Israeli occupied Palestinian territories and Israeli occupied Israeli territories ... namely that the Israelis have no right whatsoever to be where they are, that the country which the rest of the world refers to as Israel is actually all Palestine, and that Israelis should be forced off that land at the earliest opportunity.
As to 'special treatment', my personal opinion is that both Israeli Jews and Arab Muslims are playing the same game in that regard.
As to the 2 trillion + investment dollars controlled by Jewish/Israeli interests, that money has lots of places to move to where it would be welcomed. Switzerland, Japan and China come immediately to mind.
As you began to point out, Israel cannot exist against combined Arab opposition without a powerhouse 'sponsor'. China could serve as a very adequate 'sponsor' in place of the USA and Western Europe, with Israel injecting technology into the Chinese military machine, and with China gaining a much needed foothold close to arab oil reserves. Such a switch in Israeli 'sponsorship' would plant the seeds of WW3, but it IS a realistic possibility if the US and Western Europe withdrew financial support for Israel.
Actually with regard to Texas, it was mexican's who revolted against Mexico City and formed their own country named Texas (Or to that effect.)
A lot of the "US" hero's in the Alamo (like Jim Bowie et al) were actually Mexican citizens.
Texas the country continued on for a bit, but given the number of US citizens pouring into it, it later agreed to become a state of the union.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Think of it as an insurance premium against the kind of outlays we're having to make in Iraq, 'cause right now the military goes through that in a matter of weeks, if not days... and if/when the shit hits the fan again between the Arabs and the Israelis, we won't have any choice BUT to intervene on their behalf should it begin to appear as though they might actually be "driven into the sea" this time - 'cause it'll be the only way to keep the conflict from escalating beyond "conventional" warfare.
Re: 2.2 BILLION to Move 9000 Gaza Settlers
Yeah, like an Sorpano "insurance" policy. Some say give them what they want. I say that attitude is exactly the policy that got us in to thie middle eastern mess over many years. If we showed more equanimity instead, we would not be subjected tho the consequences of this blind hatred toward all things American.
BTW...
The Iraqi situation/mess/crisis we are in now, given that we started the ball rolling, is partly to mostly a product of our doing things foolishly. We and the Iraqis are currently paying the penalties for that and will for many more years. The military is not too effective in their present mode of operation (are you listening Donald R?). I suggest that the military needs to re-prioritize their current efforts (somewhat in decreasing order of priority) :
(1) protect Iraqi borders and defend what the Iraqi police cannot yet defend ;
(2) train/retrain Iraqi troops and police (get lots of help from other countries here) ;
(3) help rebuild war-destroyed (and insugent-destroyed) infrastructure ;
(4) support the new 'independent' government ;
(5) provide humanitarian aid for Iraqi citizens to repair and restart their lives ;
(6) promote somehow Iraqi economic restructuring to gain political support.
If I were an expert, I could think of more. It would have been nice to have done this in the beginning so we could be moving out now. Maybe this discussion should be in a separate thread. If we so continue, I hope for that.