Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
She is a jealous intimidated prude...
Men go for the mental interaction and the possibility of a long-term relationship.
We are FULLY in control of our urges..
You know, just writing this makes me remember some great times.
I think I am getting aroused.
Must.... leave for a few minutes.
Where is the hand lotion..
O.K. I'm back.
Err, I go to be a white knight and rescue everyone for themselves...;D
ZOOT: What is your name, handsome knight?
GALAHAD: 'Sir Galahad... the Chaste'.
ZOOT: Mine is 'Zoot'. Just 'Zoot'. Oh, but come.
GALAHAD: Look, please! In God's name, show me the Grail!
ZOOT: Oh, you have suffered much. You are delirious.
GALAHAD: No, look. I have seen it! It is here in this--
ZOOT: Sir Galahad! You would not be so ungallant as to refuse our
hospitality.
GALAHAD: Well, I-- I, uh--
ZOOT: Oh, I am afraid our life must seem very dull and quiet compared to
yours. We are but eight score young blondes and brunettes, all between
sixteen and nineteen-and-a-half, cut off in this castle with no one to
protect us. Oooh. It is a lonely life: bathing, dressing, undressing,
making exciting underwear. We are just not used to handsome knights.
Nay. Nay. Come. Come. You may lie here. Oh, but you are wounded!
GALAHAD: No, no. It's-- it's nothing.
ZOOT: Oh, you must see the doctors immediately! No, no, please! Lie down.
[clap clap]
PIGLET: Well, what seems to be the trouble?
GALAHAD: They're doctors?!
ZOOT: Uh, they... have a basic medical training, yes.
GALAHAD: B-- but--
ZOOT: Oh, come. Come. You must try to rest. Doctor Piglet! Doctor
Winston! Practise your art.
WINSTON: Try to relax.
GALAHAD: Are you sure that's absolutely necessary?
PIGLET: We must examine you.
GALAHAD: There's nothing wrong with that!
PIGLET: Please. We are doctors.
GALAHAD: Look! This cannot be. I am sworn to chastity.
PIGLET: Back to your bed! At once!
GALAHAD: Torment me no longer. I have seen the Grail!
PIGLET: There's no grail here.
GALAHAD: I have seen it! I have seen it!
[clank]
I have seen--
GIRLS: Hello.
GALAHAD: Oh.
GIRLS: Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello.
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello.
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello.
GALAHAD: Zoot!
DINGO: No, I am Zoot's identical twin sister, Dingo.
GALAHAD: Oh, well, excuse me, I--
DINGO: Where are you going?
GALAHAD: I seek the Grail! I have seen it, here in this castle!
DINGO: Oh, no. Oh, no! Bad, bad Zoot!
GALAHAD: Well, what is it?
DINGO: Oh, wicked, bad, naughty Zoot! She has been setting alight to our
beacon, which, I have just remembered, is grail-shaped. It's not the
first time we've had this problem.
GALAHAD: It's not the real Grail?
DINGO: Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot! She is a bad person and must
pay the penalty! Do you think this scene should have been cut? We were
so worried when the boys were writing it, but now, we're glad. It's
better than some of the previous scenes, I think.
LEFT HEAD: At least ours was better visually.
DENNIS: Well, at least ours was committed. It wasn't just a string of
pussy jokes.
OLD MAN: Get on with it.
TIM THE ENCHANTER: Yes, get on with it!
ARMY OF KNIGHTS: Yes, get on with it!
DINGO: Oh, I am enjoying this scene.
GOD: Get on with it!
DINGO: [sigh]
[clunk]
Oh, wicked, wicked Zoot. Oh, she is a naughty person and she must pay
the penalty, and here in Castle Anthrax, we have but one punishment for
setting alight the grail-shaped beacon: you must tie her down on a bed
and spank her.
GIRLS: A spanking! A spanking!
DINGO: You must spank her well, and after you have spanked her, you may
deal with her as you like, and then, spank me.
AMAZING: And spank me.
STUNNER: And me.
LOVELY: And me.
DINGO: Yes. Yes, you must give us all a good spanking!
GIRLS: A spanking! A spanking! There is going to be a spanking tonight!
DINGO: And after the spanking, the oral sex.
GIRLS: The oral sex! The oral sex!
GALAHAD: Well, I could stay a bit longer.
LAUNCELOT: Sir Galahad!
GALAHAD: Oh, hello.
LAUNCELOT: Quick!
GALAHAD: What?
LAUNCELOT: Quick!
GALAHAD: Why?
LAUNCELOT: You are in great peril!
DINGO: No, he isn't.
LAUNCELOT: Silence, foul temptress!
GALAHAD: You know, she's got a point.
LAUNCELOT: Come on! We will cover your escape!
GALAHAD: Look, I'm fine!
LAUNCELOT: Come on!
GIRLS: Sir Galahad!
GALAHAD: No. Look, I can tackle this lot single-handed!
DINGO: Yes! Let him tackle us single-handed!
GIRLS: Yes! Let him tackle us single-handed!
LAUNCELOT: No, Sir Galahad. Come on!
GALAHAD: No! Really! Honestly, I can cope. I can handle this lot easily.
DINGO: Oh, yes. Let him handle us easily.
GIRLS: Yes. Let him handle us easily.
LAUNCELOT: No. Quick! Quick!
GALAHAD: Please! I can defeat them! There's only a hundred-and-fifty of
them!
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
That certainly was a womans point of view even though she was in "disguise."
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
I love this part, "completely empty of any meaningful interaction, even when a woman is gyrating on your lap."
um, duh.
I think there should be an equally thought-provoking article. "Why women work in stripclubs"
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
"I saw the men there. I saw the looks on their faces. This is not about appreciation of women, of course. It's not about appreciation of their own sexuality. It's about an urge and
that's not always that pleasurable, really," she said.
Would someone who still has the intellectual side of their brain intact please explain the above passage to me in layman's terms? I traded my intellectual side in for some magic beans and a pizza some years back. I thought I got the better end of that deal, but who knows.
::)
Vincent said strip joints are about pure sex drive completely empty of any meaningful interaction, even when a woman is gyrating on your lap.
Even though Vincent is attracted to women, she said she was never aroused during her visits to the clubs. "I really ran smack up against the difference between male and female sexuality. It's that female sexuality is mental.
For a man, it's an urge," she said.
Typical rubbish from some prejudiced elitist who cannot possibly understand what is going through a man's head when he's at the club. Yeah, overpowering hormones and the freedom of no emotional attachment are part of it, but that doesn't explain the actions of regular customers who will pay vast sums of money to a dancer just to talk. I guess she didn't stay around long enough to see that part.
She wasn't aroused? News flash!!! Some men (and perfectly heterosexual ones mind you) don't really care much for strip clubs either. Its not that they don't like naked women, its just that the particular presentation a SC provides doesn't fit their cup of tea. I scoff at most porn movies for the same reason.
And yeah, dressing up like a male for one night really makes her a fucking expert at it. Now I know how you gals feel when some outsider thinks they have the right to speak on your behalf.
>:(
Forgive me. I need to go chuck something. :duck:
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
it actually said she lived as a man for 18 months.
But I think you can't live as a man until you have a penis, because we all know that the penis often thinks for the man, especially in a strip club.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
it actually said she lived as a man for 18 months.
My bad. Of course, that just makes her warped results look that much sillier.
There's some stuff involving the human condition that an outsider just can't simulate, kind of like Americans who go live in some third world country for six months, come back to their comfy first world surroundings and somehow think they're expert enough to talk about living in squalor.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Her entire premise is basely false and without credibility.
One cannot know and feel what it is like to be male unless one has been a male for their entire life, just as one cannot know what it is like to be female unless one has been one for their entire life.
We as humans are the sum total of our life experiences - experiences that start at day one. It doesnt matter if she lived as a man for a single day, 18 months or 12 years - she is NOT a man, and her sum total of life experience is not of a man.
No matter how she had lived in the last 18 months, her perspective, outlook and bearing is of a female. She didnt get a "male perspective". She got a "female dressed as a male" perspective. Her conclusions are observational, not introspective. While one can gain insights from that, observational conclusions to the inner workings of anyone's thoughts and mindset are pure extrapolation, as no one can ever truly and definitively know whats in other peoples heads.
It no more credible to make such a blanket statement as to the mindset of a male strip club patron as it is for one of us males to make a blanket statement as to the mindset of a female stripclub patron or dancer. Human beings - male and female - are as varied and myriad as there are grains of sand. One persons perspective and experience should not and will never be a good factual basis for everyone.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
I've read large chunks of Vincent's book and aside from her description of SCs--which bear absolutely zero resemblance to my own experience inside the clubs--it's actually pretty good. She's pretty upfront about her own prejudices as lesbian, liberal feminist, but she's also honest about the ways in which these prejudices were overturned by her interactions with men. I loved her description of the kind of male bonding she experienced in a bowling league, and her appreciation of the ways in which this bonding lacks a lot of the cattiness of female relationships:
So much of what happens emotionally between men isn't spoken aloud, and so the outsider, especially the female outsider who is used to emotional life being overt and spoken (often overspoken), tends to assume that what isn't said isn't there. But it is there, and when you're inside it, it's as if you're suddenly hearing sounds that only dogs can hear. I remember one night when I plugged into that subtext for the first time. A few lanes over, one of the guys was having a particularly hot game. I'd been oblivious to what was happening, mourning my own playing too much to watch anyone else. It was Jim's turn, and I noticed that he wasn't bowling. Instead he was sitting down in one of the laneside chairs, just waiting. Usually this happened when there was a problem with the lane: a stuck pin, or a mis-set rack. But the pins were fine. I kept watching him, wondering why he wasn't stepping up to the line.
Then I noticed that all the other bowlers had sat down as well. Nobody was taking his turn. It was as if somebody had blown a whistle, only nobody had. Nobody had said anything. Everyone had just stopped and stepped back, like in a barracks when an officer enters the room.
Then I realized that there was one guy stepping up to the lane. It was the guy who was having the great game. I looked up at the board and saw that he'd had strikes in every frame, and now he was on the tenth and final frame, in which you get three throws if you strike or spare in the first two. He'd have to throw three strikes in a row on this one to earn a perfect score, and somehow everyone in that hall had felt the moment of grace descend and had bowed out accordingly. Everyone, of course, except me.
It was a beautiful moment, totally still and reverent, a bunch of guys instinctively paying their respects to the superior athleticism of another guy.
That guy stepped up to the line and threw his three strikes, one after the other, each one met by mounting applause, then silence and stillness again, then on the final strike, an eruption, and every single guy in that room, including me, surrounded that player and moved in to shake his hand or pat him on the back. It was almost mystical, that telepathic intimacy and the communal joy that succeeded it, crystalline in its perfection. The moment said everything all at once about how tacitly attuned men are to each other, and how much of this women miss when they look from the outside in. After it was over, and all the congratulations had died down, Jim and Bob and Allen and I all looked at each other and said things like "Man, that was incredible," or "Wow, that was something." We couldn't express it in words, but we knew what we'd just shared.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
I didn't want to participate in this thread primarily because I don't frequent strip clubs, and so my opinion wouldn't be informative enough. But after reading a few posts I kind of decided to share them:
1. One thing she is totally right about and that even slipped my mind as a man, is the rage reaction on frustration. May be it's me, although I doubt it, but I don't remember the last time I cried in years. Even when I try to cry I got no tears. I could suffer emotionally and still not able to cry. But that's more like an anti-depression fuse or something. Indeed when something doesn't work and I realise now, when a woman will cry, I fight. I start my SWAT, special forces, high-end freaking deadly and complex combat tactical video game and I fight not really mindlessly because you need to think and feel big time there, but just to compensate for the rage in my mind. It doesn't solve the issue, but I surely feel a bit better afterwards, a bit numb.
2. She is right, we men, we accept each other without any prejudice, I'm a bit surprised to think that it's not the same way between women... You feel connection that's all. I imagined that somebody introduced Ned and totally agree we would welcome "him" and give credit of trust, until he worns out the credit. In fact the same will happen if it's a woman that gets inside of the male circle just by herself, comes openly like "Hey guys, I wanna play bowling with you" - nobody will have any problems- wanna play, fine. I'm pretty sure they'll be happy. Reminds me of a joke: "Give me a golf club, fresh air, and a beautiful blond partner.... and you can keep the golf club and fresh air" :-)
3. She managed to get 30 dates while being feminine "man", wow, I had almost no success while being "feminine", I got success while being masculine - probably some lesbian vibe there, cause I think women feel another person sexuality on a any distance, and I even have proofs. When I used to have online profiles that I completely abandoned, when inside of my soul I became more masculine without changing anything even the picture and a presentation I was getting all by itself more flirts. The fact that a woman senses instinctively masculinity is obvious to me. Probably they sensed her femininity and were attracted to it I don't know. Or may be she just believed that she'll get as many dates as she wants because she has the "right stuff" that women want, the internal beliefs are also very powerful especially for women.
4. She found herself in a loop of constantly wanting to impress her date... :-)... Ok, now that just shows me that only a feminine men will do that. I did that until I found out that it doesn't work and stopped completely. :-) I guess masculinity is something you develop while feminity is something you are born with - or may be it's easier to develop, I don't know. I asked around some of my female friends and they said that they never had to go through so much self-development as I did just to become sexually mature...
5. As for the strip clubs, I can only tell you why I don't go there. Basically I want a woman not a pussy, not a collection of feminine body parts or whatever, so for me it's not efficient to look for that in a strip club. As for the urges, I agree with most of the posts here, her opinion is very short sighted. May be for a young guy who just explores his sexuality urges take a total control of his mind and without knowing any escort agencies he goes to a SC, I don't know. but the truth is, if I want to f-ck I'll get a hooker, what's the point of going to a SC? There are a lot of willing women out there who'll do it for money. So from a grown up man perspective it's a bit illogical. Although, honestly, I really have to be very frustrated and horny to just f-ck whatever woman that shows up at my door, like I said I want a woman not a hole. I find it that for really fulfilling sex the selection of a woman by a man may be even more rigid and discriminating than the selection of a man by a woman. Really depends what you are looking for.
Probably that's why some guys go to a SC to communicate with women, not as much for sex, I don't know. That's why I wanted to go some time ago, but realised it's not the shortest way to the goal so I let it go.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prester_John
Her entire premise is basely false and without credibility.
One cannot know and feel what it is like to be male unless one has been a male for their entire life, just as one cannot know what it is like to be female unless one has been one for their entire life.
We as humans are the sum total of our life experiences - experiences that start at day one. It doesnt matter if she lived as a man for a single day, 18 months or 12 years - she is NOT a man, and her sum total of life experience is not of a man.
...
Now that's an opinion I'll vote for!!
Besides women do have testosterone. Poorly researched testing technique with too many wrong assumptions. Besides not all males follow anyone's idea of a stereotype.
I, myself, go there for the food. It's the only thing I can take home or need.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Ummmm... I think Vincent really over anyalizied this whole situation.
Going to a strip club is entertainment- nothing more.
People like to look at each other naked. Watch a group of 3 and 4 year olds, and they will all get naked and explore each others bodies given the oportunity.
And apparently, men are not alone in watching nude folks dance around. Women are increasingly attending strip clubs on a regular basis. STRAIGHT WOMEN. Couples are also enjoying this form of entertainment. Male strip shows are also very popular with both sexes.
I would be willing to bet that straight male audience members would watch a male strip show with their female friends if there wasn't such a stigma against male homosexuality. In some parts of the world it isn't a big deal to see male and female audience members at strip clubs for both genders.
Not everyone finds Stripclubs entertaining. Not everyone finds Football entertaining. So waht? Many people find football to be unnessessarily violent, lowbrow entertainment. Does that mean that the people who enjoy football are somehow lower on the evolutionary scale? No, it is JUST ENTERTAINMENT!
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
there are plenty of feminist women who are attracted to other women who enjoy looking at other women dancing around naked.
it think what's at the heart of this issue is that she's an anti-sex feminist- one of the same people who think porn is destroying america and that thong underwear is a symbol of women's enslavement. i, however, and plenty of other women as well, am i pro-sex feminist- i believe that like anything else, sex can be twisted around horribly (e.g., rape) but sex in and of itself is a wonderful thing that is not at all harmful to women. furthermore, i believe that until women are allowed to completely own our sexuality, we will never be free of male oppression. after all- how many people are worried about male strippers and porn models being degraded? in the end, it all comes down to the old fashioned idea that women have no natural desire for sex, and that women acting sexual in any way is wrong.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paris
I would be willing to bet that straight male audience members would watch a male strip show with their female friends if there wasn't such a stigma against male homosexuality.
Nah, straight males are too competitive. I'd rather watch ants crawl or someone else's game of pool.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
I agree w/Venus - she definitely sounds like an anti-sex feminist. Someone ready to jump down your throat because you (sic) thought of fantisizing about something you would like that she didn't understand.
I know I've been guilty of the scared/hatred reaction to things which I can't comprehend as well. (you mean you girls don't fantisize about grinding on smelly, drunk custys?)
At least from The Snark's post, it sounds like the author did allow the 18 month process to broaden her understanding of the male mind a bit.
Thanks, Lizette, for the great thread.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Norah Vincent spoke for no one except Norah Vincent. Her work is full of assumptions & stereotypes. IMO it's crap.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
I think there should be an equally thought-provoking article. "Why women work in stripclubs"
Can you actually print a one word article? :-\
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
I am reading her book right now and I am a bit upset at it though I see what she is talking about. Has anyone else read her book. I just finished the chapter about strip clubs. She went to a total dive. While I am not about to bash any of the dancers who dance in clubs I wouldn't ... I am curious to know what her reaction and findings would have been had she gone to a cleaner club with more rules and a different way of ...interacting with the customers. I know sometimes I feel like customers cans ee the "void" in my eyes when reacting with them. I HATE when they ask me if I like my job. I don't usually answer because after doing it for almost 12 years off and on...I know I am there for the money and it's a job though it can be fun. I just tell them it's fun but I wonder how much of my disdain for some of the pretending I have to do they can see.
Any other thoughts? Anyone else read this chapter of her book?
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Believe this: 90% of men go to stripclubs to try to find a temporary bedmate. These same men go to regular bars for the same reason. Or go anyplace they can try to snare a woman who attracts them. The difference is that is regular bars, more women than in stripclubs might play along with this game.
For the other 10% of men a variety of experiences are the motivator. Stimulating visuals, interesting conversation, a backdrop for getting high, basic socialization for recluses, etc. Probably a few other reasons exist less frequently. So when you strippers find a man who excites you, just remember, if you care about your peace of mind, you will be very careful about associating with this crowd. Hey, I'm in it too. And I know about you.
(some of this is tongue in cheek, some is serious - you figure out which is which) LOL
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Quote:
"At its core, it's a bodily function. It's a necessity. It's such a powerful drive and I think because we [women] don't have testosterone in our systems, we don't understand how hard it is," she said.
Wow, what an idiot.
Women do have testosterone, just significantly less than men.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Typical feminist garbage. Norah Vincent is a sad woman indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paris
I would be willing to bet that straight male audience members would watch a male strip show with their female friends if there wasn't such a stigma against male homosexuality.
Um... NO. HELL NO. A straight man like myself would *NEVER* ever watch a male strip show under any circumstances whatsoever. You couldn't pay me to go. A straight man does not want to have to look at naked men. Eww... ick!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prester_John
Her entire premise is basely false and without credibility.
One cannot know and feel what it is like to be male unless one has been a male for their entire life, just as one cannot know what it is like to be female unless one has been one for their entire life.
We as humans are the sum total of our life experiences - experiences that start at day one. It doesnt matter if she lived as a man for a single day, 18 months or 12 years - she is NOT a man, and her sum total of life experience is not of a man.
No matter how she had lived in the last 18 months, her perspective, outlook and bearing is of a female. She didnt get a "male perspective". She got a "female dressed as a male" perspective. Her conclusions are observational, not introspective. While one can gain insights from that, observational conclusions to the inner workings of anyone's thoughts and mindset are pure extrapolation, as no one can ever truly and definitively know whats in other peoples heads.
Exactly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lopaw
Norah Vincent spoke for no one except Norah Vincent. Her work is full of assumptions & stereotypes. IMO it's crap.
I couldn't agree more.
Re: Why Men Go to Stripclubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prester_John
Her entire premise is basely false and without credibility.
One cannot know and feel what it is like to be male unless one has been a male for their entire life, just as one cannot know what it is like to be female unless one has been one for their entire life.
We as humans are the sum total of our life experiences - experiences that start at day one. It doesnt matter if she lived as a man for a single day, 18 months or 12 years - she is NOT a man, and her sum total of life experience is not of a man.
No matter how she had lived in the last 18 months, her perspective, outlook and bearing is of a female. She didnt get a "male perspective". She got a "female dressed as a male" perspective. Her conclusions are observational, not introspective. While one can gain insights from that, observational conclusions to the inner workings of anyone's thoughts and mindset are pure extrapolation, as no one can ever truly and definitively know whats in other peoples heads.
It no more credible to make such a blanket statement as to the mindset of a male strip club patron as it is for one of us males to make a blanket statement as to the mindset of a female stripclub patron or dancer. Human beings - male and female - are as varied and myriad as there are grains of sand. One persons perspective and experience should not and will never be a good factual basis for everyone.
I don't know. I think it is interesting that we are obsessing over the fact that she is not "really" a man and that being born with a penis makes one beyond understanding to all those without one. There are a lot of transgendered people who feel pretty strongly that theey can identify, perform and understand the opposite sex pretty damn effectively. While offhand statements like "for women sexuality is intellectual and for men it is an urge" tell me that she is pandering to assumptions that most people share (seriously - if that were couched in another setting, how many people would agree with it? The idea that sexuality is a province in which women may exercise power over men because it is commodity that they supply and men demand? I'm not naming names, but I've seen some of y'all embrace that particular ideology with enthusiasm), I think that living life as a man (or a woman) after a life of not doing it is EXACTLY what reveals those hidden elements - the whole water to fish train of thought. There are parts of being male or female (or being raised and socialized male and female) that are invisible to us because we are deep inside it. When you take on a new identity you are inside it, but aware of it.