Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
According to the state of California and the IRS, you are 100% wrong. IC's are LEGALLY not required to adhere to schedules or other policies a company might impose on regular employees. Clubs only use the IC status in order to 1) bilk us of large sums of money and 2) avoid paying regular employee taxes and insurance fees. They have gotten away with it for so long, and continue to do so, because of the nature of the business. There's always another girl turning 18 just waiting to dance, having NO IDEA what the REAL laws and rules are. There's always another girl who's broke, desperate, and willing to do almost anything for that quick money. And there's always another girl who's recently found herself out of a regular job due to the economy, or just sick of her regular job, who's decided to dance for the money.
Unless strippers and girls wanting to strip make a MASSIVE change in their attitudes and knowledge toward the job, nothing will change, and it will continue to get worse. Club managers and owners know this and take full advantage of it.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
That sounds like they're trying to get money any way possible from the girls! A $100 late fee? A $200 no-show fee? The only clubs that I heard of doing this, are clubs that are super-upscale, best-of-town, best-money-in-the-city type clubs like Delilahs or Scores...but even then, I do not know if their fees are that much. At my old club(Oasis in Philly), the late fee was only $15. A no-show fee was $25-50/night, but $100 for Sundays(this is because girls would purposely blow off Sundays because Sundays weren't exactly the money-making nights)...never $200. And usually you could get outta the no-show fees if you called out ahead of time, showed a doctor's note, or simply explained the situation. Maybe the club isn't making as much money as it used to, so it's trying to overcompensate by getting more money outta the girls?
OK as far as "independent contractor" licenses go, here's my take on it: IT'S A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT. Basically having an "independet contractor" license is a way to pay $250 for the "privledge"(sarcasm) of paying higher income taxes. In Philly, you can still claim taxes as an independent contractor/dancer without having a license, you just end up paying LESS money than if you did the "right thing" and got the license. I've worked in Philly and Jersey shore, and even at a top-3-club-of-the-city like Oasis, they never asked if I had a license.
The only club that told me I had to get a license was Wizzards, and they went about it in such a sham-shod way that it makes me wonder if they really cared all that much about licenses, or if they were only acting like it because they'd gotten raided less than a year prior and were reminded by law officials that every dancer needed to be licensed. Wizzards was my first club, and when I started, they told me that I should pay $25/day towards the full $275 for my license. They charged $275 insteada $250 because they padded on an extra $25 for doing the license paperwork for us. Most girls that'd been there for months(sometimes years) never bothered to put money towards their license, however I paid the license off in full in only a week...and that's considering that I had Major Money problems to put money towards during that time! Did they actually do anything with that money?...No, it sat for over 6 months in their office. Obviously if they cared enough, they woulda made more of an effort to get my license with that money...waiting a week for more people to get their money in is understandable, but over 6 months? By this point, I'd taken off a month from work for my boob job so yeah money was tight...I asked them for my money back so that I could go down to City Hall to get the license myself and save the extra $25, so they gave me the money, but because I needed the $275 so badly, I simply spent the money and they never asked me for proof of my license! LOL! All the manager said was, "I told you those lines at City Hall would be long, wasn't I right?" and I answered in a psuedo-exhausted voice, "Oh yeah, it was such a long, long wait!" They never asked for proof or documentation or anything! Since then, I haven't been asked or required to get a license. I'm not planning on dancing for too much longer, so I'm gonna try to avoid the $250 expense if at all possible!
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
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Originally Posted by Krystalle
Fines are not lega???^^ Is that just Texas?? That's interesting, we have some fine issues here to, seemed fair, but not if it isn't legal!!
Fines and fees of any kind are illegal. Even if you are an independant contractor, it is totally illegal to charge a worker to work.
Could you imagine what it would be called if government contractors paid for their contracts? How about computer repair? "I'll let you work for Geek Squad, but first you need to pay the company $100 per shift w/o guarentee of work?"
It is extortion. All the clubs have girls sign paperwork stating some legal sounding mumbo jumbo, but it truly is illegal. Every dancer who has sued to get her house fees and fines back has won. It is a well established precedent.
All the clubs do it, too. The dancers pay because they haven't a choice. Pay or don't work.
One of these days some enterprizing lawyer is going to organize a class action lawsuit and get a lot of girls their money back. But until it becomes more painful for the clubs to charge a fee to their strippers than the amount of money gained by the club from said fees, they will keep taking thier chances.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Paris, I think that's what the San Francisco lawsuit is.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Here's the thing... if you're girlfriend keeps making waves, or allowing you to make waves for her, they'll get rid of her. So it's kind of a put up or shut up thing. As someone said before, the best thing might be to get reciepts for all fines and fees and then sue in a few years. Ooops, sueing a strip club... there would go that public good girl persona, huh? See how the evilness of sex and marginalization of sex workers contributes to our exploitation, even at legal, "upscale" levels?
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
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What exactly do you do for a living if I may ask.... you have a lot of free time to worry about what your girlfriend makes and gets fined. Wow you even know what her average hourly rate is..... no offense but you sound more like her suitcase pimp than a boyfriend.
None taken. I know it's a rare thing to have a boyfriend that supports you, that's why i can understand the growing skepticism here.
the about me section:
I go to school dual majoring in computer engineering and Business administration. I run a small electronics business, manage and sublease a 6 bedroom house to friends, and work my ass off at whatever part time job suits my school schedule at the moment. I have a knack for financials and i enjoy helping people. I got my girlfriend her first bank account and taught her as much as i could. I wrote an excel sheet and at the end of the night, she puts in two dollar amounts. The amount she brought home, and the amount she tipped out, and it figures up everything from the true amount she made that night, to the percentage of money she owes in taxes for any day, month, or year. She then makes nightly drops at the bank to get the money out of her hands. It takes more thought to write a check for something than it does to break a $20. I don't interfere except for directing her when she needs help.
Anyway, I wouldn't stand for this kinda shit if if any of my friends were being exploited. Sometimes it's just hard to get people to stand up for themselves and they need a little motivation.
Eg. I found out that one of my gf's friends is being abused by her roomate. After meeting with the girl, learning of the entire situation, and getting her permission, we are going to get her out of that situation. Not to mention make sure her roomate get's what's coming to him. My mother was an abuse victim and it took her years to finally face what happened to her. She is now an activist for women that have been physically, mentally or sexually abused. Society still turns a blind eye to the abuse that three out of four women endure during their childhood from their seemingly upstanding fathers. My mother would kill me if i turned a blind eye to this shit. I may not be able to relate, and i may not be able to help everyone, but i can help people near me. That's just how i am.
Now: back on track.
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AggieGuy So what is it like dating a performer? (Thanks to Yekhefah for proper word usage). I think I'd be uncomfortable dating a dancer. Not that I think anyone is "bad", but just the whole thought of it. Maybe there's a side of it I don't know.
Well, i had been dating her for 2 1/2 years before she got this job. So the relationship has been pretty well established. She'd danced in LA a little when she was younger and wanted to try it out again. It's a little stressfull sometimes. But it's pretty much just like any other job. I went with her the night she applied for the job. I haven't been back, just because i've been busy. I find the club to be a place to go with several friend and have a good time and frankly we just haven't been in a while. I love the stories she tells me. Sometimes the bosses or bouncer will text message her. Of course i ask questions but usually they are drunk and just being a guy so I bite my lip and let her handle it. I'm not naive and i understand that when she's at work, she is her stage name. So far that has never crossed over.
The point is she's not a band. Her work is classifying her as an IC to get a break on taxes but controlling her as an employee, and fining her as, well, i don't know. I've already said i don't mind reasonable fines for being late. We could go on all day about comparing her to other professions, but what remains true is that she's being jerked around. Quiting and going to another job is turning a blind eye. It's a workaround and not a solution. I set out to find if the business was doing something illegal and if anything could be done. It turns out that they are and it can.
I appreciate all who are saying their mind and believe they can fine and do as they wish, but, the more i learn about the situation, it looks like this is just disinformation intended to confuse those in the industry.
My gf pointed out to me that she is on pretty good terms with the manager and that the business is doing slow right now in general, so they are fining whenever they can. Remember from $1-$200 per incedent. She said this past weekend one girl was fined the maximum for two incedents. Once for coming in late and once for cut-throating. (which i understand to be stepping in between another girl and her customer) That's $400 dollars worth of fines for a girl who barely made $250 that night!
Anyway, i'll update more later. Today she goes into work to try and get ahold of her agreement.
p.s. I don't really have any free time i'm working on something constantly.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
ah, wow, more and more posts while i'm posting mine. I have to take off until later tonight but i thought of a couple of things.
We haven't actually "made waves" yet. I'm making sure i'm armed to the teeth with the legality of this before i go in. We may even wait it out until until closer to when we move next year because, regarless, she still has tons of fun at work!
The funny thing is that if they want to classify her as an IC i don't think they can even fire her unless they can proove she breached contract.
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19. RIGHT TO DISCHARGE WITHOUT LIABILITY:An Employee can be discharged at any time without liability on the employer's part.
If the work meets the contract terms, an Independent Contractor cannot be fired without liability for breach of contract.
20. RIGHT TO QUIT WITHOUT LIABILITY:
An Employee may quit work at any time without liability on the Employee's part.
An Independent Contractor is legally responsible for job completion and, on quitting, becomes liable for breach of contract.
i'm not totally sure about this yet as i'm still learning. It's a complex system.
I'm also worried about the other girls. See, if i were to fill out a specific form i found online and submit it to the IRS they would be out to the club quite quickly to establish what's going on and collect their taxes due. Hell hath no fury like the IRS.
But i don't want the other girls to suffer because of it, so i'm taking it slowly and looking at the options. I'm hoping that just bringing up the fact that what they are doing is highly illegal will be enough for them to grant her the true status she is owed. They are kinda caught between a rock and a hard place because if they fired her then it wouldn't stop me from filing the irs form.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Just curious what club in Tennessee she works at since I also work in Tennessee (Nashville)... maybe I can help you find a MUCH better club if you're close to the Nashville area.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Ok, I'm going to jump in this one. I live in Nashville. I dance in Nashville. I have worked at Deja Vu (where they really do treat you like crap and think it is totally ok). I had a manager there tell me it wasn't his job to say anything when a DJ I didn't get along with skipped me on stage rotation 8 times in a row and refused to tell me why he was doing it. And I do know the GM there now doesn't play nice, it is her way or the highway. I took the highway.
The licensing thing is a pain in the butt, and I know the club that isn't making girls get them because the club never applied for a business license itself, so their stance is that if they aren't licensed, the rules governing strip clubs here in town don't apply to them. Right now I am working at CrazyHorse, and they will let you work while you are waiting on your permit, you just can't go on stage. Their house fees are very low by Nashville standards, and dances are $25 and you keep $20, no the biggest cut in town, but it's the going rate there.
I did have to go the a meeting downtown before all the laws went into effect and they basically told us that if we get licensed in Nashville it will come up on our record that we have a "sexually oriented business". That's why alot of girls left town, or went to the club where they didn't need a license.
But a $200 fine? Screw that.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Be sure the club is not "connected" before you go blowing any IRS whistles. Sometimes these things can backfire.
Also realize that you are probably fighting a losing battle. Why do you think so many of us put up with what we do, knowing it's illegal??? I assure you it's not because we're stupid or weak.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
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I was fined once in a club but I wanted a printed recipet since it would be a tax deduction. They never fined me again.
Best way of dealing with fines.
I'm not that down on fines, actually- I've been fined once in my career, and I deserved it. Fines are kind of a necessity just because of all the flakes that are in the industry. I'd personally prefer that they just fire the flaky girls, but whatever.
Now, I think the reason your gf got fined is crap, though- stupid fines piss me off. She should just find another club. It's not like there's big money holding her there. Almost every club will have fines, but a decent club only fines when absolutely necessary. I would leave any club that fined randomly.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Some clubs have strange rules regarding attendance, payouts, etc. For example, I club will put you on probation if they think that you gained too much weight. If you leave for another club, you have to pay the manager if you want to come back to work. Etc.
It depends on her. If she wants to continue working at the club, then she just follows the rules without much thought. Go to work, come home, and pay whatever they want you to pay. Don't fight with them. If not, then just go to another club. I like to stay under the radar and not cuz the mgmt much problems.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
Well, I applaud that you are able to bite your lip and not say anything. I think I would go crazy, although I've never been in a situation of such extremeties.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
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Originally Posted by scarlett_vancouver
Best way of dealing with fines.
I'm not that down on fines, actually- I've been fined once in my career, and I deserved it. Fines are kind of a necessity just because of all the flakes that are in the industry. I'd personally prefer that they just fire the flaky girls, but whatever.
Biggest problem with that is, as we've seen, many owners/managers will abuse the fine system and impose bullshit fines as a source of income and/or a way to manipulate girls.
I would rather they just fire the problem girls and be done with it also, because as we know all too well, there are always others waiting to take their places. In fact I think this would help business, because problem girls often cause loss of business. But of course, we're not dealing with savvy businessmen here. We're dealing with people who are often the lowest common denominator regarding management qualifications, who tend to employ short-sighted tactics at best.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
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Originally Posted by Bridgette
But of course, we're not dealing with savvy businessmen here. We're dealing with people who are often the lowest common denominator regarding management qualifications, who tend to employ short-sighted tactics at best.
Well, I had a major magnum opus reply to this thread ready to go, with salient quotes from some of my favorite members' replies, lol--but I can only copy and paste with IE, and it freezes constantly, so you will all be spared another epic screed from Djoser...
Managers tend to be colossal assholes, if not drug addicts and borderline rapists (I've seen this combined). It's quasi-legal extortion, and on a massive scale, too.
Willpower, if everything you say is true, you are an exemplary dancer's boyfriend, lol--and I hear you on the patience it can require sometimes. There was one DJ whose jaw I wanted to break very badly, after he actually humped my girlfriend's leg in the DJ booth one night--I kid you not...
If the club hadn't been so far away--and me temporarily devoid of transport--he would have been visiting the hospital, I assure you (this was no mere isolated incident, trust me). There's a line that just shouldn't be crossed, all politically correct tolerance of harmless flirtation being considered. Some male staff are Olympic hurdle jumping race contenders, too, lol.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
I found out that there are a few girls there that have been around for 5 years or more. She's going to talk to them before even asking the management for a copy of her independant contractor agreement, the one she was made to sign. She understands that it's her right to this information, but she's been on pretty good terms with her bosses and doesn't want to stir up any redflags just yet.
I'm usually pretty gung ho about things but i'm finding that the longer i let it ride the more i'm able to calm down and think about it logically. I like what someone said about checking up on the club's connections with the local government; since they can "somehow" just not follow the law that all the other clubs have to. I also haven't made it around to getting legal advice just yet. I'll try to take care of that this weekend. Most things i've read on missclassification of IC's say to talk to a lawyer before you launch the irs nuke.
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange rules.
Are fines illegal for all states? How can you find out for your home state?
thx
Re: $200 dollar fine as an independant contractor? $100 if late? And other strange ru
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it sounds more like way to enforce taxation to me. (which i don't mind paying taxes)
She is worried that if she goes to another club and is required to get this license that it will bite her in the ass in the future.
* Who is the information available too?
* Where exactly on your "record" is this information stored? I mean, does it just show up as a background check or do they have to specifically query the county or city where she got it. Or does the irs hold the information?
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I did have to go the a meeting downtown before all the laws went into effect and they basically told us that if we get licensed in Nashville it will come up on our record that we have a "sexually oriented business". That's why alot of girls left town, or went to the club where they didn't need a license.
If the local gov't jurisdiction requires a license for all 'sexually oriented businesses', and lumps dancers into that group along with strip club owners, adult bookstore owners, adult movie emporiums etc. here is what it likely amounts to ...
The city/county office that issues the license will give the applicant a form, which asks for real name, real address, real SS#, real age, all past criminal offenses etc. The city/county will issue the license and file the application ... as a 'public record'. Unless some specific provision of local law is enacted to the contrary, from that point forward ANYBODY with a $5 photocopy fee and the gumption to walk into the city/county office can get a copy of the licensee's personal information. Depending on the computer savvyness of the city/county, the same info may be available from the internet. The really bad news to this is that the city/county not only requires a 'business license' (which would include every business from hot dog vendors to garbage collectors to carpenters), but specifically created a separate license for 'sexually oriented businesses'. De facto result is that future employers, the IRS and state income tax agencies, disgruntled neighbors etc. will have ready access to all licensee's information.
Following up on the subject of the club leveeing fines, requiring advance scheduling of absences with doctor's excuse, rigidly scheduling particular hours and days etc. under ALL state laws none of this is 100% legal UNLESS the exotic dancer signed an 'independent contractor agreement' which agreed to these conditions. Ultimately, as an independent contractor, your services can be dispensed with by the club no questions asked no reason stated in every state. Also, as an independent contractor labor laws i.e. fair labor practices do not apply, such that the dancer has no legal recourse if for example the current clubowner were to fire her plus put the word out to every other clubowner in town not to hire her either.
There have been a few cases where dancers have managed to bring class action lawsuits against particular branches of particular clubs based on the argument that the treatment of dancers by that club (branch) constituted the exercise of 'employer over employee' authority in the absence of an 'independent contractor agreement'. In general, the successful lawsuits along these lines have taken place in 'blue' states with heavy labor union influence, strong state labor laws, and 'activist' liberal judges.
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Be sure the club is not "connected" before you go blowing any IRS whistles. Sometimes these things can backfire.
Also realize that you are probably fighting a losing battle. Why do you think so many of us put up with what we do, knowing it's illegal??? I assure you it's not because we're stupid or weak.
this is a major issue to consider ... that the dead body of a dancer showing up in a dumpster within a block of a particular strip club may not have been a random act of violence ... I hate to admit this, but there are some clubs out there who have a whole lot of connections and easy access to a whole lot of trouble.