if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
... because that way most people won't take notice !
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
But of course, we don't want to conserve energy (costing people less money), more efficient vehicles (again: cheaper to drive), provide a fair wage that doesn't require credit cards to survive, encourage inner city development and make sprawl more expensive (requiring less infrastructure and miles driven...again saving money especially for the income-strapped), or make excess a less visible and acceptable part of our culture (savin money and also making us look less offensive to the rest of the world, especially the fanatic Muslims and others who despise America.
Why would we want to do that? We're America!
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
All Americans want to conserve energy when the investment required to do so offers any sort of reasonable return on investment. Success story of the year are Chinese made twisted flourescent bulbs with screw bases that directly replace incandescent light bulbs - they cost about $5 bucks and can save $2-4 dollars per year in electricity costs. Such bulbs could have been built in America or elsewhere at any time in the past 10 years ... but our higher taxes, stricter environmental regulations re the mercury in flourescent bulbs, minimum wage / comp + unemployment costs etc. would have resulted in a minimum profitable selling price of $20 a bulb ... at which point the return on investment would have sucked and American consumers would not have purchased them of their own accord.
Lots of other energy conservation measures with miserable return on investment results are only 'cost effective' from the myopic viewpoint of those measures being subsidized by gov't payouts to certain people, with the payouts actually being financed by raising taxes on certain other people. This of course applies to hybrid vehicles. The US revolutionary war actually started because of this sort of taxation !
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
Uhh...Mel, my house has had those bulbs for about 4 years....and they save (since they use 1/3 the energy) something like 20-40 bucks over the lifetime of the bulb
as for your other statements...patently wrong and if you'd really like to know more, PM me or review the POO posts on the subject. Diesel cars, alternative energies, energy conservation (even a tankless water heater pays back $5,000 over cost the life of the unit compared to a normal water heater).
In my "real life" I educate people about sustainable, affordable, practical environmental steps they can take now. I have a good handle on this stuff
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
Gotta say I agree with promarket on a lot of things. There are things people can do.
Like simply turning off the lights when they aren't using them. Most of my light bill is night time air conditioning and the refridgerator. My ex use to have every TV and light on in the house. When she was gone - I noticed the electric bill went down substantially.
Getting back to the article though - a lot of people - I mean A LOT - really live outside their means.
The woman who broke up with her boyfriend is another example of the country requires two income families to survive (more than just house payments!)
And don't get me started about the bafoons who have their garage packed with so much shit they can't even park their car in it anymore.
Some people really deserve the spanking they are about to get.
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
I agree that alot of people are irresponsible. Hell we all have been at some time or another. Gods know I have. Sometimes it takes a hard lesson to learn to be responsible and respect money.
There is another factor in all this. The availablity of credit is at an all time high across the board. It started with credit cards in the 80s and now homes. Anyone can get a credit card, loan, or home no matter what their financial situation today. It wasn't always that way. There is alot of predatory lending going on. Especially in the past ten years. Giving someone that lives paycheck to paycheck a credit card, loan, or mortgage is asking for trouble. Some say it is up to them not to take it. Easier said than done. It is hard to say no to free money when your constantly broke. It isnt free i know. But it seems like that to them.
The blame is in being irresponsible but also in the lenders that prey on it.
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by proMarket
Uhh...Mel, my house has had those bulbs for about 4 years....and they save (since they use 1/3 the energy) something like 20-40 bucks over the lifetime of the bulb
as for your other statements...patently wrong and if you'd really like to know more, PM me or review the POO posts on the subject. Diesel cars, alternative energies, energy conservation (even a tankless water heater pays back $5,000 over cost the life of the unit compared to a normal water heater).
In my "real life" I educate people about sustainable, affordable, practical environmental steps they can take now. I have a good handle on this stuff
THANKYOU ! :thumbsup:
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
The lenders who prey are scum...but it's completely "free market" scum and pure capitalism. Not that it's morally right, but ... not illegal (yet). Do we in this business reallyu want morality legislated? I thought not.
Not sure what the answer is here (except teach people about credit sooner...)
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
We are not talking about legislating morality. We are talking about going back to regulating the level of credit available. This was done in the past. Some say the industry will correct itself by becoming stricter on credit worthiness. With the new bankruptcy laws, increasing interest rates, and a slowing econmy will the market correct itself fast enough? I doubt it will.
I have always believed that finance should be a class taught in high schools as well.
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vamp
We are not talking about legislating morality. We are talking about going back to regulating the level of credit available. This was done in the past. Some say the industry will correct itself by becoming stricter on credit worthiness. With the new bankruptcy laws, increasing interest rates, and a slowing econmy will the market correct itself fast enough? I doubt it will.
Sure there will be a correction that will happen - it will happen on the consumer side instead of on the supplier side.
And with all those young fresh faced college students hard up for a stereo - they will have years of indentured servitude under the new bankruptcy laws.
Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
I can see that this entire topic turns into a taboo subject every time it creeps into a thread, as well as diverting attention away from the original point.
... as to turning off lights, the investment required to conserve energy in this manner is zero (i.e. zero cash and a few extra seconds of attention) so of course it makes economic sense to do it.
As to the retrofit screw-in flourescent replacement bulbs, tankless water heaters etc. they obviously have a good return on investment when A). they are produced in Asia such that they can be sold at extremely competitive prices, and B). the local electricity cost per kWh is well above 10 cents, and C). most states offer tax credits or gov't rebates for installing these devices (subsidized by taxpayers of course). However, if produced in the USA at 3 times the selling price, of if the local residential electricity cost is regulated to well below 10 cents/kWh (subsidized by commercial and industrial electricity customers of course), or if the cost in higher taxes of providing the 'energy efficient' tax credits is included in the equation, the payback economics get shaky very quickly.
I agree wholeheartedly with Vamp that some basic economics lessons are in order - and in particular the economics of investment in 'energy efficient' devices versus actual payback in energy cost savings versus lost investment opportunity cost versus hidden costs (subsidies). Granted that some 'energy efficient' technologies make a great deal of economic sense. However, some other 'energy efficient' technologies are not all that attractive of an investment on their own merit, and depend heavily on 'somebody else' contributing large amounts of tax dollars to sweeten the deal.
In fact, you've prompted me to run some numbers on the tankless water heater. From we see that a middle of the road Rinnai tankless water heater costs about $1000 after sales tax etc. As most homeowners can't / won't do their own plumbing and electrical work tack on another $400 for parts and installation, for an installed cost of $1400. Compared to a middle of the road propane fueled tank style water heater, per Rinnai's chart the projected annual savings are $144 per year, yielding roughly a 10 year simple payback on a $1400 investment at first glance. But had $1400 been invested in even a lowly 10 year CD, it would have produced 5.7% * $1400 or $80 per year in interest earnings. Thus the actual net savings of investing in this tankless water heater versus keeping an existing propane tank type water heater and leaving the $1400 in a 10 year CD is $144-$80=$64 per year on a straight-up cost basis, for a simple payback period of 22 years. Compared to keeping an existing natural gas or fuel oil tank type water heater and investing the $1400 in a 10 year CD, the Rinnai tankless water heater actually costs the buyer $80-$44 = $36 per year and never generates a payback !
Fortunately for corporate sales, Rinnai managed to lobby successfully for the institution of a $300 tax credit, which on the surface sweetens all of these payback equations. But what isn't immediately apparent is that for a typical middle class taxpayer, total additional taxes over 10 years taken out of his hide to fund this tax credit will exceed the $300 tankless water heater tax credit he can collect one time ... because a significant portion of additional tax money must be diverted to fund the $300 tankless water heater tax credit for low income Americans who don't actually pay diddly in taxes themselves ! Given that the top 50% of taxpayers actually pay 96% of all tax dollars, a reasonable guesstimate is that a middle class taxpayer will wind up paying $600 in additional taxes over 10 years in order to receive $300 of his own money back on his own tankless water heater, plus paying for a $300 tankless water heater tax credit for some other American. Thus the $64 per year that the middle class tankless water heater owner thinks he is saving versus a tank style propane water heater is actually reduced from $64 to $34 per year by the additional taxes collected to subsidize some other American's tankless water heater. $34 per year payback on a $1400 investment yields a simple payback period of 41 years, which isn't exactly awe inspiring ! On the other hand, the middle class taxpayer is going to wind up being required to pay around $60 in additional taxes per year to fund tankless water heater tax credits for some other Americans even if he doesn't buy one himself in order to 'reclaim' half of that additional tax money !
Please feel free to point out my economics errors ! And forgive me for saying so, but unless the tankless water heater has a lifespan equal to plutonium I can't see where a $5,000 lifetime payback is going to come from. Obviously, the references to the costs of tankless water heater tax credits are only accurate if everybody in America were to wind up buying one in the next 10 years. Also, admittedly, the lost investment opportunity cost I used i.e. the 5.7% 10 year CD is pre-tax (but investing $1400 in a gas/oil royalty stock would yield even more than 5.7% = $80 per year in after tax dividends, plus cap gains !)
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Re: if there is bad news, make sure to cover it on a holiday weekend ....
Might be interesting to listen to: