WTF am I projecting? My glutes are still tight and my life is probably far more exciting than yours. I am projecting for the average pervo. CasualMan, dajlink, you are an extroardinary pervert, and thus excluded from this group. :P
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And Kat said it like this "Just remember boys, many of these girls are young and immature. "
And that was exactly my point about the majority of dancers acting like PLs in their own right at the start of their careers. Oh sure they grow out of it, so do experienced customers.
And if it wasn't rare? If it was say true 20% of the time (just to pick a number out of thin air since we have no controlled studies), would it matter? Would any of us stop going? Would any dancers stop dancing? I do share the same traces of concern, or I would for a woman that I thought of as a friend or someone close, but people make the choices they are going to make (and whether or not they take responsibility for their choices is a luxury but not necessary), and I don't know of any dancer you could talk out of dancing just because it contributed her growing up being soured or embittered about men.
It isn't rare. In fact, quite the opposite. Almost every dancer I know at some point develops issues with men and relationships. At first, its men and sex, as consequence to the sticker shock. In addition, few relationships can withstand the female stripping, ESPECIALLY when its a young girl with a young insecure boyfriend.
But most of us make it out alive, and somewhat intact. I've quit and gone back many times over the years, and I'm much more normal about dating and men the longer I've been out.....
Now on this I'll definitely trust Kat's judgement (this is the exactly the kind of thing a dancer knows better then any customer).
Now Katrine, let me ask you this... So on the one hand part of me feels some pangs of guilt over visiting clubs when I know it has this negative impact on women. On the other hand I realized long ago I can't fix all of the world's issues and put it out of my mind while I'm there (and in an ironic twist, if none of us guys went because of that, there'd be no clubs). And it's for this reason I also do behave myself ITCs because there is no way to know in advance which stripper is going to take things personally and which can laugh it off and just view it as business. So what do you make of that conflict of interest?
p.s. I should add I'm comfortable with leaving internals conflicts unresolved, as long as I'm aware that the conflict of interests exists.
I feel a little guilty, too, but I think I'll get over it. }:D
^^^
I would say that guilt is inappropriate unless you are doing something particularly heinous (in which case I would recommend that you don't do it rather than feel guilty about doing it) or have specific knowledge about the individual that would give rise to it (in which case I would still recommend that you don't do it rather than sit around feeling guilty about it). Outside of those particular scenarios I would say that you are in the "let adults be adults and they probably know best how to govern their behaviour" zone.
I do really heinous stuff. :)
I should have known.
I didn't make her take up the profession. She didn't lure me into taking up the hobby.
No time for guilty feelings, keep grinding my dear. Yeah baby, just like that.
Is that too heinous? :P
I'm sorry are you asking me?
No. I think that is delightful.
Sure, and of course we all resolve conflicts of interest by acting one way or the other. But the interesting part is some people seem to need to completely put the conflict out of mind, while I'm much more comfortable with keeping an awareness of the conflict, while still choosing. But if Kat's right regarding "Almost every dancer I know at some point develops issues with men and relationships. " (and I believe her that's been her experience having been in the business for quite a while) that suggests to me that a lot of the comments here along the lines of "it's just a job" are flawed because the comments often imply there is no difference between the impact on the person doing this job vs doing some other job. Now all jobs have some impact on people, but it's relatively few jobs that you could say such a high percentage of the employees (or contractors) end up having relationship/sex issues as a result.
^^^
Based on what you read upstairs, one could assume that a large percentage of strippers have fucked up relationships with their men. Or maybe the ones that do tend to post more. Who knows. But anyway, it does lead one to wonder whether they were already predisposed towards relationships issues prior to stripping or whether said problems arose as a byproduct of entering the trade.
FBR
I can't make a direct comparison, because I've not been in US strip venues (I live in the UK) but I'll assume the ethos, pressures etc are broadly comparable. I'd also have to say there might be an element of selection in that we talk to people we like, therefore the dancers I get on with tend to share the same broad values as I do.
That caveat aside, many dancers I know do sustain stable relationships. When they do break down (as they do from time to time) it appears to be more events outside of work than directly related to the fact that the girl's a dancer. I'd also have to say that in the relationships that last the bf/husband has no involvement in the dancing side of things.
Katrine's point about young girls is well taken - we all of us grow wiser with the years, and maybe a dancer of 25 - 30 with a broader outlook on life has learnt to smile wryly rather that feel the stresses she might have done at 20 or 21.
Are dancers affected by the job? I'd have to say yes. At one time or another (because I'm a sympathetic and discrete listener) I've had varying dancers pour out their angst to me. Has it permanently affected them? IMHO not seriously - in that they're wise enough to see that they're life outside dancing is the only arena where they should worrry about being judged.
Could I name dancers who have been adversely affected by the job? Yes, a small minority are - generally by becoming extremely cynical about men. Other develop drug or drink problems. Is it all attributable to stripping? That I'm less sure about, in that some of the girls have brought their personal problems into the job with them.
I'd also point the finger slightly at venues in terms of preventing dancers developing problems - they have a duty of care towards the girls that work there. Unfotunately all too often the need to make a profit means they turn a blind eye to practices that they should be stopping.
With which comment I would wholeheartedly agree - if you treat someone decently, then any issues a dancer might have are not directly realted to your conduct - and if you can't treat someone decently, you're a poor specimen of humanity.
Phil.
I would say that you could look at a couple of things:
a) that a lot of women have relationship problems. I mean, why do you think anyone, anywhere buys "The Rules"? Further that a lot of strippers are very young women. Nuff said.
b) a lot of strippers work nights and are tired and anti-social during the day. So who do you think they tend to meet?
Not to say that all customers suck, but a certain kind of customer is the customer that goes to a strip club looking for a girlfriend.
Correlation doesn't mean causal factor.
As doc so eloquently put
it should be about the exchange of funds for pleasure. But as sometimes happens when you've been clubbing, maybe too long I dunno, you start to thnk about the component parts rather than appreciate the whole. Eh, maybe its just an old guy jaded thing. Thankfully I still have fun most of the time.Quote:
No time for guilty feelings, keep grinding my dear. Yeah baby, just like that.
FBR
I wasn't even thinking of the pinkies, I was thinking of real life. Upstairs, I don't even know if its a man or a woman posting. In my club years, you can't ignore what's going on around you are you put on your makeup.
As I mentioned before, the change is temporal. Xdamage, for instance, I don't see as causing strife in the SC. Although you are a bit ornery down here.
Also, Jenny has a point, correlation is not causation. For instance, stripping didn't destroy my 3 year relationship, drugs did. Now, did stripping allow me easy access to drugs and plenty of time to do them? Yes. Did I use them with coworkers and during the course of work. Only a handful of times. Rather, I was doing it them with other MBA's, cops, attorneys, engineers, etc.... But that's just me, not statistically significant.
Btw, I've met a lot of happy couples throughout my stripping years. Both parties were pretty messed up, lol......
Kat LOL well since you are are now jonesin for real world rewards as you take advantage of your education selling stocks, bonds, investment advise etc you are now viewing those happily messed up couples as saturday night live entertainment. Fun to watch but who wants to be there.
X is a good contributor down here...but ornery? To me Blue ornery is Punk times the square root of JZ minus FBR plus gameover.
FBR
I don't doubt either point for a second, Kat. ;) I think my point is more that the expectations of the average SC perv are generally in line with the expectations for the average stripper, in that both ends of the SC business--patrons and providers--seem to take an equally proportionate toll on their lives when badly managed, which isn't very hard to do.Quote:
WTF am I projecting? My glutes are still tight and my life is probably far more exciting than yours.
Despite your personal demons borne through or as a result of the business, Kat, you've managed to restore a semblance of normalcy and social function to your life; just as with many (most?) PLs/RILs, a preponderance of dancers in your situation simply do not. Ever.
True, but OTOH it's all too easy to fall into a trap whereby it's argued that people are shaped by their environment (when it suits our arguments), while on the other hand argue the environment is not factor (when it doesn't suit our arguments). For most people I'd say an 8hr a day job (plus time they spend thinking about, and preparing for the job before and after work represents a considerable portion of their environment (subtract 8hrs for sleep, and it can easily end up that they spend at least half their time involved in their work directly or indirectly).
The truth may lie in the middle area as well, some tendency for younger women to bring their problems with them, plus the environment impacts on their thinking. They are not mutually exclusive factors, and may well be complimentary. How might the same women end up if she worked in an environment that required they more directly cooperate with other men (and women) to complete tasks? Or compete with other men and women for promotions? Or work in an asexual job that focuses on something (anything) that isn't intricately tied up with how men and women interact with each other in sexual ways? There are all kinds of possible environments that would feed into a young woman's beliefs about relationships and sex in other ways.
And really in my limited experience of two careers, I don't know anyone that spends several years in a line of work that doesn't modify their personality and thinking patterns in some ways as a result.
p.s. and of course none of what I just wrote is meant to say that strippers don't have to deal with some really fucked up males who end up in SCs because they are unable to cope with relationships or women OTC.
punk((JZ - (FBR + GO))^(1/2))
Fuck it, I jerked off last night to a new pornstar to get me out of my funk. Her name was Teagan Presley, I don't kow how I hadn't seen this girl before. Quite the cutie, good anal, nice flexibility. It was so good I jerked off in the shower this morning thinking about jerking off to her last night.
It may be down to environment - I live just outside London (UK). I'll have a guess that the average age of the dancer working the pub (as opposed to the lap dance club) circuit is about 25/26. There are some younger dancers about, but most seem to be in the age bracket I've mentioned. Quite a few are from abroad and have a wider perspective on life that somone who's just lived in the UK.
The dancers I do see having troubles tend to be older and quite a few years in the job. One cause is coke - some of them seem to pick up ever growing habits.
Another problem is age; if they've been dancing since they're 18 and they see the end of their career only a few years off, they often end up workng very high mileage venues (including extras) to earn as much money as possible in the time available and get stressed accordingly.
Depends how sensible the dancers are - on the pub circuit there are a fair number of lunch time sessions, so not every night is a late one. I think the problem can be the number of bookings, and not the time. Most dancers I know get very stressed if they overdo the number of bookings, and most have the good sense to take a few days off it they do.
And on the subject of dancers bf's, etc - the one I know who have stable relationships met their bf's away from work, and keep them well away from it. The small number that do start relationships with guys they met ITC do, I agree, often end up with fuckwits.
I think the general theme of this conversation was - does dancing give a significant percentage of dancers long term pyschological problems?
My answer would be, from my experience no. However, the London strip pub scene is one where most dancers earn a reasonable (but not great) income without an undue degree of stress.
On my very rare excursions into London lap dance clubs, I got the impression that the stress levels were a lot higher - too many girls chasing too few customers - and hence the pyschological pressures were higher. I think also the mileage levels may have been a bit higher - which again not all girls handle well.
In which case you might be able to correlate the number of girls who have problems with the enviroment they work in: high stress/high mileage environments possibly leading to a higher level of dancers with problems.
Phil.
There could be something to that. There are some careers that are time limited, including most sports. Eventually older players have to face facts that it's a dead end and move on. Of course a famous person with a notable sports career might have some job opportunities based on their notoriety, but that's probably not something a stripper can depend on. But the big difference is that not all of these careers provide a "high mileage" end game option as a way to make more money while one can. That may tend to cause a person in those other career lines to plan earlier for the inevitable. While I have met strippers that have kept going into their early 40s, that's a long shot, and with people living longer then ever, most people will end up working another 25-30 years (to 65-70). Possibly a good looking woman has the marry rich option later in life, but even that option becomes less likely the older she gets.
The problem is money is like crack... it's addicting, and hard to imagine doing something else that pays less once you have a life style going that depends on your current income level.