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Thread: Does linguistic skill really matter?

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Hah! I couldn't resist...

    But this is no mere joke. Maybe a certain renowned expert on the subject will even be tempted to reply. I sincerely hope so.


    What's funny is, while I have always had a great deal of respect and admiration for those with unusual linguistic ability, I never cared all that much about my own limited expertise--until the last year or so, that is. I had other interests that were much more important to me, and assumed that I would never need any knowledge or skill with other tongues, especially not in any sort of professional capacity.

    Now I am having to deal with women who are literally from all over the world, in a capacity in which the better communication you share, the more money everyone can make, and the more fulfillment of the unique variety I seek especially can be obtained.

    Just last night I was trying to explain to Kiara what exactly it was that I was telling the customers about her, with an appalling lack of success. Frustrating in the extreme for me, who delights most of all in the effect of what I say on the dancer herself, in the midst of her performance. But I knew the chance of success would be dismally low, so it was actually kind of funny. She did figure out at least that I was trying to tell her what I had said, that it mattered to me that she knew, and even that it might have been in some way unique or amusing (it was one of my better efforts). So it wasn't a total waste.

    What is also ironic is my previous slightly snobbish feeling that the one language besides English I do possess some rudimentary knowledge of--French--was in some way inherently superior to others. Hell I even used to say things in French on the mike at that circus club in Daytona, something no one there understood or gave a flying fuck about save the owners, sort of (they were French).

    And, wouldn't you know it--though we have Czech women, Russian women, Polish women, Argentine women, even a few Hungarian and Brazilian women--and I am probably forgetting someone from somewhere else--you guessed it, not one French woman!

    I know we have two dancer members who have a knowledge of Russian, one due to her Ukrainian heritage, and one due to her having chosen the language and literature as her major in college. But I would be interested to hear who else out there has an interest or unusual ability in the field of linguistics.

    I do know that there are people with an uncommon capacity for picking up new languages. Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's something that can be fostered from an early age by an appropriate encouragement and exposure to other spoken languages, probably it's both. But there are people who seem uncannily facile with this--and it even seems apparent that rather than decreasing with the acquisition of yet further means of communication, it might even increase! The academic world is replete with tales of such extraordinary individuals.

    The most fascinating by far, of course, being Sir Richard Francis Burton. No, not the actor, but this guy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Francis_Burton

    Wilkpedia will tell you that he was "...a British explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat.". But they left out the fact that he was a sensual adventurer as well, something his long-suffering but loyal wife didn't seem to be as upset about as most would.


    So let's hear it...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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  2. #2
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    The most fascinating by far, of course, being Sir Richard Francis Burton. No, not the actor, but this guy:



    Wilkpedia will tell you that he was "...a British explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat.". But they left out the fact that he was a sensual adventurer as well, whose long-suffering but loyal wife didn't seem to be as upset about as most would.


    So let's hear it...
    ^ Heh, in keeping with my beliefs about monogamy...

    On the topic of languages, I feel ashamed I can't speak more...Stripping made me want to study languages because I've met people from every part of the world in my travels.

    I DID also learn that body language and pantomiming can bridge the gap sometimes............Maybe that's superior to verbal communication, as people don't always mean what they say...

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxine View Post
    I DID also learn that body language and pantomiming can bridge the gap sometimes............Maybe that's superior to verbal communication, as people don't always mean what they say...
    Yeah, if you had video footage of me trying to communicate with all these foreign vixens I am dealing with, it would no doubt be highly amusing. I always have been one for manual activity while speaking, and this is much more pronounced at work these days!

    But it only goes so far, such as last night--when I was trying to think if there was some non verbal method for illustrating the fact I had just nominated Kiara as the first human subject for experimental cloning purposes. Kinda goes with the song "Dontcha", you know...

    This is sadly not something that can be conveyed via sign language, lol!
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    I spent 4 years of my life in Northern Italy. The Italians thought I spoke really good Italian, and it always made my day when I got a compliment from one of them at a Pizzeria or a Gelateria. I don't think my Italian is that great, but it was enough to impress them, I suppose.



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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Salut...

    My favorite toast, lol!

    What does it mean in italian--in French it means hello. In English, a complimentary salutation. I have heard it means similar things in several languages.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    I WISH I had the time and resources to devote to learning more languages and becoming fully fluent (or at least conversational) in a few.

    I do consider myself very lucky as I have always had an ear for languages, sounds/phonetics, accents, etc., and even as a little girl I picked up on all sorts of crazy accents, tried perfecting weird imitations, and was exposed to a host of different languages/cultures by my fairly worldly parents.

    I was fluent in French at one point (7+ years of study plus a month immersion as an exchange student in a TEENY town where no one spoke english) though I've since forgotten most of it... (if ya don't use it, ya lose it... very unfortunate). I took a few semesters of German, which I ADORED, and would love at some point to start that back up... and I was able to read/pronounce hebrew (a requirement for my bat mitzvah, though unfortunately conversational aspects of the language were completely overlooked.) I think languages are absolutely fascinating.

    Great thread, djoser!

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    I'm currently reading Steve Pinker's new book "The Stuff Of Thought : Language as a Window Into Human Nature"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/bo...Saletan-t.html


    Another amazing book I'm recommending to everyone I meet.

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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Check out the 18th century English polymath Thomas Young.

    He was born in 1773, and could read by the age of 2.

    By the age of 14 he was fluent in Greek, Latin, French, Italian, Hebrew, Chaldean, Samaritan, Arabic, Persian, Turkish and Ephiopic.

    In later life he made a significant contribution to deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphics by identifying some of the cartouches on the Rosetta stone.

    Phil.

  9. #9
    mermaidnz
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    ive said for years now, the sexiest thing about a guy is when they take the time to attempt to learn a foregin languaue.

    i think its disgusting people dont learn more then one language in school down here, its a fucking disgrace, and i remember self teaching myself itallian at 10, japanese for the first time at 9, and eventually pining to get to high school so i could learn french and spanish at the same time. after 4 years of spanish i was pretty fluent, however ive forgotten *alot* of it now since i havent had a chance to use a single word since leaving school. i have been self teaching myself japanese for the past 2 years off and on, and taught my bf basic spanish.

    lingustic skills are right up there for me, i value a person who speaks several languages over some ignorant one who only knows english.

    the world is big, and even tho most people learn engligh while in school, its still an amazing thing to see someones fac light up when they find out you can speak a little in their native tongue.

  10. #10
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    My French teacher told me something about the man named Berlitz whose name still graces Language Schools he founded- Mr. Berlitz thought it was NORMAL for people to speak more than one language...He grew up around many different languages....He thought EVERYBODY was the same way...

    I've also been amazed at the dialect, accents and patois I've heard in my travels. English is spoken quite differently (& entertainingly!) all over the US and its Territories.
    Last edited by madmaxine; 10-08-2007 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Mis-spelled "entertainingly"...A verbal fumble. Boo!

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    I'm currently reading Steve Pinker's new book "The Stuff Of Thought : Language as a Window Into Human Nature"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/bo...Saletan-t.html


    Another amazing book I'm recommending to everyone I meet.
    Whoa, that's some heavy shit, there. I started reading the review, but my brain is so befogged after the fourth day running without any really effective sleep, I can't really get it right now.

    This is what happens when you get into this kind of state, you read the words but they don't register. Even this fairly well written trash novel I'm in the middle of isn't making sense to me (Servant of the Bones by Anne Rice).

    But I have read before about how different languages will stimulate different modes of thinking in a quite literal fashion.

    Language has never been my forte, I love French, to me it is the sexiest of languages, but I can't understand it spoken very well at all unless they go slowly, and can only read it slowly as well. I tried teaching myself Egyptian hieroglyphics, but got hung up on the same 'sedjem-ef' verb construction that no one else can seem to get past without a little help. Except Champollion and a few others, of course. He was the guy who finally really broke the Rosetta Stone mystery--I had forgotten exactly what part Thomas Young played, Phil-W.

    But living in Key West will open your mind to the amazing variety of languages pretty quickly. The average group of people walking down the street aren't speaking English. Much of the time it's hard to tell what the hell it is. I have never cared for Spanish as a language, truth be told, but now it's the one I wish I knew more about, followed closely by Czech.

    I had a real mind-opening experience while getting my hair cut one day about six months ago. There were 5-6 people in there, stylists and customers, and no one was speaking English. It didn't bother me at all, though, as it might have even a year ago--I actually kind of enjoyed it. You could tell they weren't ripping up the gringo, for one thing, haha!

    For the first time, I just put my mind in a passive/receptive mode, and let the words sink in without thinking about it, worrying what exactly was being said, or being irritated. This is, of course, the way very young children learn language, and though the cognitive process must be different in an adult mind, I could tell if I did it enough I would learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxine View Post
    I've also been amazed at the dialect, accents and patois I've heard in my travels. English is spoken quite differently (& entertainginly!) all over the US and its Territories.
    Yeah I used to hitchhike a lot when I was in college, it is amazing what you will hear, especially around Louisiana. I have never felt so much like English was an entirely different language!
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    Whoa, that's some heavy shit, there. I started reading the review, but my brain is so befogged after the fourth day running without any really effective sleep, I can't really get it right now.
    Pinker is one heavy dude. The book though is fascinating because Pinker's books on language (he has a few, and this is his professional forte) focus a lot on what is common across languages, and what that says about us humans. Heavy indeed.

  13. #13
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser
    For the first time, I just put my mind in a passive/receptive mode, and let the words sink in without thinking about it, worrying what exactly was being said, or being irritated. This is, of course, the way very young children learn language, and though the cognitive process must be different in an adult mind, I could tell if I did it enough I would learn.
    This is my Chinese teacher's approach. We never open the book in class; he says we can read at home. Mostly he talks, drills us with big flashcards, makes us act out skits, asks us questions, and generally just shoves us into hearing and speaking whether we understand it or not. It's working extremely well; I'm making straight A's in there and can have a limited conversation on a few subjects after only a month in the class. He insists that his students that stick with the program are pretty much fluent in two or three years, because he makes us learn in the same way we learned our native language.

  14. #14
    mermaidnz
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    This is my Chinese teacher's approach. We never open the book in class; he says we can read at home. Mostly he talks, drills us with big flashcards, makes us act out skits, asks us questions, and generally just shoves us into hearing and speaking whether we understand it or not. It's working extremely well; I'm making straight A's in there and can have a limited conversation on a few subjects after only a month in the class. He insists that his students that stick with the program are pretty much fluent in two or three years, because he makes us learn in the same way we learned our native language.
    chinese? lol cantonese or mandarin?

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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    I've heard that Mandarin Chinese is one of the hardest languages to learn.

    I also studied Japanese when I was going to college in Hawaii. The class was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it, but learning all the Kanji was very stressful. I still have my Japanese language book. I should look through it...



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    Featured Member lizlizliz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Yes and no. Europeans have it right, they learn multiple languages from a very early age. But here in America, that is not as common unless one language is spoken at home and another in school, etc. But you have to keep in mind that European countries are generally smaller and in very close proximity to many other countries, with completely different languages spoken in all of them (not to mention various different dialects w/in countries). It becomes necessity for people to learn many different languages, and they do so from a very early age.

    Children up until age 2 acquire the ability to make certain sounds (for example, the Russian Yeri (Ы)) in a particular language that would be extremely difficult for a non native speaking person to produce, simply because that particular construct doesn't exist in their first language. Children also have an easier time (up until about the age of 9) learning new languages, while it is notoriously difficult (in general) for adults to do this.

    I think another big difference in American vs. European language acquisition is the method of teaching. I know when I was in high school, the foreign language classes were complete shit. On this side of the ocean we tend to focus on writing, reading, and sheer grammar. On the other hand, the Europeans focus on oral performance, which is much more practical and altogether a better way at achieving the ultimate goal of native proficiency (you ARE NOT fluent unless you grew up speaking a language, that's a pet peeve of mine).

    I wouldn't feel bad if you have extreme difficulty learning a language and I think it's unfair to feel "disgusted" by someone who only speaks their native language. Yeah, it's easier if you grow up speaking 5 languages, but some people just have a natural knack for soaking up this kind of knowledge. Some people are also born mathematical geniuses, musicians, etc.

    I'm none of the above, but I do suck a mean cock.

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizlizliz View Post
    Some people are also born mathematical geniuses, musicians, etc. I'm none of the above, but I do suck a mean cock.
    HAHHHAHHHAAHHAAAAAAAA SIGGY

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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    There is a Mandarin Immersion kindergarten class in SF. English is never spoken by the teacher. Kids are truly sponges.
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&sn=002&sc=576

    I am barely fluent in English. There was a little broken spanish spoken in the house when my grandparents visited, but I only remember the bad words. Hats off to those willing to undertake the task as an adult.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizlizliz View Post

    Children up until age 2 acquire the ability to make certain sounds (for example, the Russian Yeri (Ы))...

    I think another big difference in American vs. European language acquisition is the method of teaching. I know when I was in high school, the foreign language classes were complete shit. On this side of the ocean we tend to focus on writing, reading, and sheer grammar. On the other hand, the Europeans focus on oral performance, which is much more practical and altogether a better way at achieving the ultimate goal of native proficiency (you ARE NOT fluent unless you grew up speaking a language, that's a pet peeve of mine).
    OK, where did you get this--(Ы)?? That's not on my keyboard, or any keyboard I've ever seen, either. I also notice you cannot copy and paste the "b" looking thing without the "l" looking thing. Do you have a Russian laptop?

    I agree about the flawed instruction method. But are you saying no matter how well you learn a language, you cannot be fluent unless you learned it as a very young child? I'm not disagreeing, rather curious--I have no clue about the vagaries of the science of linguistics.

    Nice tie in with MadMaxine's thread, BTW, whence the inspiration for this one came.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Embyr View Post
    I was fluent in French at one point (7+ years of study plus a month immersion as an exchange student in a TEENY town where no one spoke english) though I've since forgotten most of it...
    This isn't necessarily true, Embyr. I was first learning Italian back between 1997-2000. I barely spoke it at all, and I actually found the language quite annoying and didn't really even want to learn it... but I could understand what the Italians around me were talking about, the ideas they were expressing, etc.

    Five years later, I returned to Italy to live for another year while I was in the Air Force. I was completely baffled by the Italian that started to fly out of my mouth in my conversation with the nationals during that time I went back. It was so weird. It was like I actually knew more than what I had thought I knew...and going back to the country brought back this undeniable familiarity. Maybe you should take a trip to France someday and see just how much it is you truly remember. You may be quite surprised.



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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mily View Post
    ...but learning all the Kanji was very stressful.
    What's Kanji? The writing system? I liked learning the hieroglyphics, but there are more than 600 of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mily View Post
    I was completely baffled by the Italian that started to fly out of my mouth in my conversation with the nationals during that time I went back. It was so weird.
    This is much less impressive than your story, but when I went to San Miguel de Allende with my dad a few years ago (one of the best vacations I have ever taken, for sure!), and went to a restaurant by myself, I kept automatically trying to speak my lousy, barely rudimentary French when the waiter didn't have a clue how to deal with my non-existent Spanish.

    I didn't even think about it, and I hadn't spoken French during the several year timespan between the trip and my college classes. Like you say, it "started to fly out of my mouth". Of course I also instantly realized that it was useless--the waiter wasn't much more a linguist than I was--but it automatically happened anyway.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    Featured Member lizlizliz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    OK, where did you get this--(Ы)?? That's not on my keyboard, or any keyboard I've ever seen, either. I also notice you cannot copy and paste the "b" looking thing without the "l" looking thing. Do you have a Russian laptop?

    I agree about the flawed instruction method. But are you saying no matter how well you learn a language, you cannot be fluent unless you learned it as a very young child? I'm not disagreeing, rather curious--I have no clue about the vagaries of the science of linguistics.

    Nice tie in with MadMaxine's thread, BTW, whence the inspiration for this one came.
    It's a Russian letter, you can get it by installing a cyrillic font on your computer. The fluency vs. native proficiency is purely a linguistic thing.

  23. #23
    mermaidnz
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    What's Kanji?
    please tell me your kidding....

    japanese writing style, the cute lil symbols you see as 'japanese'... not romanji- engligh lettering for japanese words.

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    Featured Member lizlizliz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by mermaidnz View Post
    please tell me your kidding....

    japanese writing style, the cute lil symbols you see as 'japanese'... not romanji- engligh lettering for japanese words.
    It was a legitimate question, chillax.

    Chillaxing, in linguistic terms, is a combination of chillin' and relaxin'.

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    Default Re: Does linguistic skill really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    What's Kanji?
    It's basically the Japanese writing system. A WHOLE other bottle of wax! There's Hiragana, Katakana, Manyogana, and Hentagaina. We were only taught Hiragana...THANK GOD!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji



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