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Thread: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

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    Default NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    For those pining for a Dem. Prez with a solidly Dem. Congress it might be helpful to look at how the Dems have wrecked the economy in New Jersey.

    When McGreevy took over in 2002 with a solidly Democrat State Legislature there was a budget deficit left over from the Whitman years.

    Rather than control spending McGreevy raised taxes on businesses and raised taxes on "milionaires".

    Now, about Five (5) years later ; after The Swallow became the new State Bird
    ( sorry, I couldn't resist ) the tax base of New Jersey continues to erode as tax rates keep climbing. What ? How could this be ? Higher taxes on "rich people" are supposed to generate surpluses and bring prosperity.Instead New jersey has one of the most serious structural deficits of any state ( New York and California are right alongside); the State Highway Trust Fund is bankrupt and New Jersey is losing TAXPAYING citizens at an accelerating rate. They are moving to Pa. ; DELAWARE and even back to New York.

    What happened was businesses stopped expanding and creating new jobs and taxpayers voted with their feet replaced MOSTLY by ILLEGAL immigrants who don't pay taxes; don't get driver's licenses; don't register their cars and don't get
    Insurance.

    Go to any town of any serious size in Northern or East-Central N.J. and it's
    "Welcome to Tiajuana" ! Hard working and law-abiding folks for the most part to be sure BUT they don't pay TAXES.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Go to any town of any serious size in Northern or East-Central N.J. and it's
    "Welcome to Tiajuana" ! Hard working and law-abiding folks for the most part to be sure BUT they don't pay TAXES.

    Why do you think that I moved out of north Jersey !!! In fairness, it's not just illegal aliens of hispanic origin either that are arriving in large numbers. It's actually a toss-up whether to pick Spanish or Farsi as a second language in north Jersey !

    More to the point, for years Jersey attracted lots of middle class residents and lots of small / medium sized businesses because their state tax structure was significantly lower than NY / CT / MA ... in other words about the same as PA or MD but a whole lot closer to where the 'action' is in NYC. As those state tax rates have risen, some middle class people have opted to move across the PA line and deal with a longer commute. As those tax rates have risen, other middle class people have opted to move back to where the 'action' is since the tax burden is now about the same but the bridge and tunnel commuting headaches go away.

    Back to your original comment, not only do newly arrived illegal aliens (and for that matter low income legal aliens or 'poor' Americans) NOT pay state taxes, they also typically CONSUME tax revenues paid for by other state residents. Thus for every illegal alien family that arrives the state / local budgets take a hit for educating their children + medicaid health coverage + whatever other public assistance they can manage to enroll themselves for ... guesstimated to be in the $3,200 per person ballpark by one study I saw. Guesstimated tax revenue consumption by the 'poor' / legal aliens is far higher of course since they are eligible for the whole cornucopia of welfare / medicaid / subsidized rent / subsidized utilities / TANS etc. And for every 'middle class' resident that bails, the state / local tax revenues take a $10,000 drop ! This is a double whammy effect that states like California and New York are already very familiar with.

    The real risk factor of course happens on the day that a sufficient number of 'poor' and illegal alien children have turned 18, and a sufficient number of 'middle class' taxpayers have already left the state, such that it's no longer possible for the remaining working class / 'middle class' taxpayers to defend their own paychecks against a voting majority of 'poor' people that want increased social welfare benefits for themselves. They are aided by gov't officials / public sector workers / gov't contractor workers who depend on a particular voting result to keep their jobs, plus a small number of 'very rich' elites who escape the majority of the increased taxation anyhow via offshore tax shelters / NJ muni bonds etc. This won't happen in 2009, but it could very well happen by 2012 !

    You also may want to check the other thread about SCHIP benefits. Arguably, the recent NJ lawsuit is motivated by a desire to provide a new 'middle class' social welfare benefit to 'middle class' NJ residents (free medical insurance) in an effort to dissuade some of them from leaving. Of course the 'free' NJ SCHIP medical insurance for NJ families earning up to $70,000 a year isn't really free ... it must be paid for by increasing federal income taxes on residents of other states, which will then be transferred from Washington DC to Trenton NJ !!!

    ~

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    As usual, you're right on point. My thread was sparked by Paul Mulshine of the Newark Star Ledger who was told that N.J. had a net LOSS in population over the past decade i.e. more people moving out than moving in and yet traffic kept getting worse and worse. Well, it turns out that legal residents have been replaced by ILLEGALS who are a net drain on state and local coffers because they don't pay taxes.
    Worse yet, a lot of middle-class homeowners unable to handle the squeeze of ever-increasing property taxes ( and who usually voted Republican) have packed up and left replaced by Civil Service types as State and Local Government Employees have radically INCREASED in number since the Byrne Administrations of the 70's.
    The Highway Fund is bankrupt and the Teacher's Pension Fund is billions in the red. Corzine ( everyone forgets he was FORCED OUT at Goldman Sachs) is clueless as to how to solve the problem.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Corzine ( everyone forgets he was FORCED OUT at Goldman Sachs) is clueless as to how to solve the problem.
    ... as is Schwarzenegger in CA ! The only reason that NY hasn't gone the same route has been windfall profits from Wall St. Brokers and Investment Bankers, which are likely to be vastly reduced this year compared to the previous few years.

    Ultimately, once the situation is established where 'middle class' taxpaying state residents are given a strong incentive to make a hasty retreat across the state line (many taking their businesses with them !) due to the differential in state / local taxes, and where 'poor' / illegals are given a strong incentive to move into the state due to generous social welfare benefits and/or lax prosecution of illegal alien status, a vicious circle is formed. And as I said in the previous post, this becomes irreversible once 51% of registered voters consist of 'poor' people collecting benefits + gov't officials and civil service employees + the 'very rich' ... all of which have a vested interest in 'big gov't'.

    Ultimately, the balance point is eventually exceeded where the current amount of tax money expenditures needed to sustain those generous benefits and pay those civil service salaries exceeds the ability of the remaining 'middle class' taxpayers to provide sufficient tax revenue to cover it. At this point state gov'ts usually try one of two options. They either try to bond for the additional money to spend - which transfers that tax liability to future 'middle class' state taxpayers (and actually increases the future tax burden due to bond interest), or they try to get the federal gov't to transfer federal tax money collected from taxpayers in other states so that this particular state can bear less of the burden (or expressed a different way, so that taxpayers in other states can help subsidize the social welfare benefit recipients in this particular state).

    If all of these measures fail (as happened to New York some 30 years ago), then the state winds up going bankrupt. At that point, and ONLY at that point, will state politicians face the music of discussing actual CUTS in social welfare spending, of discussing CUTS in civil service employment levels, of discussing CUTS in state / local tax rates to re-attract businesses and 'middle class' taxpayers, of discussing the investigation / prosecution / deportation of illegal aliens etc.

    And through all of this, the 'very rich' continue to benefit. Higher state / local income taxes mean very little since they can park some of their capital offshore and collect the dividends / interest without having to worry about income tax rates in NJ. The more desparate NJ's credit rating becomes, the higher the rate of interest the 'very rich' will earn on their tax exempt NJ municipal bonds. As more and more 'middle class' homes and apartment bldg's are vacated by exiting 'middle class' taxpayers, the 'very rich' can snap up the good ones at bargain prices and increase their state gov't guaranteed rental income from low income tenants enrolled in subsidized rent programs.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-11-2007 at 12:50 PM.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... as is Schwarzenegger in CA ! The only reason that NY hasn't gone the same route has been windfall profits from Wall St. Brokers and Investment Bankers, which are likely to be vastly reduced this year compared to the previous few years.

    Ultimately, once the situation is established where 'middle class' taxpaying state residents are given a strong incentive to make a hasty retreat across the state line (many taking their businesses with them !) due to the differential in state / local taxes, and where 'poor' / illegals are given a strong incentive to move into the state due to generous social welfare benefits and/or lax prosecution of illegal alien status, a vicious circle is formed. And as I said in the previous post, this becomes irreversible once 51% of registered voters consist of 'poor' people collecting benefits + gov't officials and civil service employees + the 'very rich' ... all of which have a vested interest in 'big gov't'.

    Ultimately, the balance point is eventually exceeded where the current amount of tax money expenditures needed to sustain those generous benefits and pay those civil service salaries exceeds the ability of the remaining 'middle class' taxpayers to provide sufficient tax revenue to cover it. At this point state gov'ts usually try one of two options. They either try to bond for the additional money to spend - which transfers that tax liability to future 'middle class' state taxpayers (and actually increases the future tax burden due to bond interest), or they try to get the federal gov't to transfer federal tax money collected from taxpayers in other states so that this particular state can bear less of the burden (or expressed a different way, so that taxpayers in other states can help subsidize the social welfare benefit recipients in this particular state).

    If all of these measures fail (as happened to New York some 30 years ago), then the state winds up going bankrupt. At that point, and ONLY at that point, will state politicians face the music of discussing actual CUTS in social welfare spending, of discussing CUTS in civil service employment levels, of discussing CUTS in state / local tax rates to re-attract businesses and 'middle class' taxpayers, of discussing the investigation / prosecution / deportation of illegal aliens etc.

    And through all of this, the 'very rich' continue to benefit. Higher state / local income taxes mean very little since they can park some of their capital offshore and collect the dividends / interest without having to worry about income tax rates in NJ. The more desparate NJ's credit rating becomes, the higher the rate of interest the 'very rich' will earn on their tax exempt NJ municipal bonds. As more and more 'middle class' homes and apartment bldg's are vacated by exiting 'middle class' taxpayers, the 'very rich' can snap up the good ones at bargain prices and increase their state gov't guaranteed rental income from low income tenants enrolled in subsidized rent programs.

    ~
    Technically , New Jersey IS bankrupt as outlays and current obligations already exceed revenues AND their ability to borrow to keep things like The Highway Fund
    afloat is winding down. Without fundamental reform New Jersey could easily be the first state to go into Federal Bankruptcy which in the long term would be a good thing.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    They will just start selling state assets and we can see the Chinese flag flying over the turn pike collection booths.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    ^^^ hey it worked in Indiana !!!



    and not surprisingly, the 'very rich' make out like bandits on this deal too, as the will likely collect a fat capital gain on their toll road muni bonds along with the tax free interest earnings they already receive !!!

    (snip)" Owners don't actually sell, of course; they sign a long- term lease with a company to operate and maintain the roads in exchange for an up-front payment. The lease agreements include details of things like toll increases and maintenance standards.

    Governor Daniels of Indiana plans to use the $3.85 billion that he expects to receive from Australia's Macquarie Infrastructure Group and Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte SA of Madrid, to improve and expand the state's highways. In theory, the state could do anything with the money.

    The state is also going to use about $200 million of the upfront payment to redeem outstanding toll road bonds. Merrill Lynch noted last year that ``the emergence of this trend offers municipal bond investors dynamic opportunities -- likely resulting in defeasances of outstanding bonds.''

    This means there are guys out there combing through the billions of dollars in bonds that have been sold for toll road financing from coast to coast, coming up with likely candidates. In a toll road that is ``underperforming,'' -- meaning, not enough people are using it -- the sale of the road could mean that bonds now trading for 70 cents or 80 cents on the dollar will rise to 100 or more."(snip)


    It never ceases to amaze me how many sweetheart deals for the 'very rich' are unearthed every time a new 'rock' is turned over.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    So with 6 years of republican control of the white house and congress, we have balanced budgets ... right?

    Who wants to badly overturn the schip veto... Republicans ..

    Who passed one of the largest entitlement programs in the history of the US - the drug plan - Republicans...

    It aint a republican/democrat issue... When will people learn that?

    Who signed the WAR ONPOVERTYT - Nixon!


    I dont remember people loving Ms. Whitman either. I mean c'mon its Jersey... People leave there all the time. In fact I have a rule - if u have at least 6 random people in a room - one will be from NJ - it never fails...

    What kills a bud of mine in NJ are not income taxes but property taxes. Then he gets hammered with AMT on the fed return ..

    ANd the other thing that kills NJ is the people who live in NJ but work in NY and PA. Dont they get to reduce their state income taxes by what they pay in NY and PA... So NJ gets a double whammy... Just saying its not so simple ... More to life than taxes my friends...


    And Mel u r right - the rich, the uber rich, always come out ahead ...

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    So with 6 years of republican control of the white house and congress, we have balanced budgets ... right?
    well, we have positive cash flow at the federal level ... NJ has negative cash flow


    Who passed one of the largest entitlement programs in the history of the US - the drug plan - Republicans...
    this put GWB on my personal s#@t list forever ! But without doing so we would have had president John Kerry instead, which points out the 'least of the evils' choice that voters were given.


    ANd the other thing that kills NJ is the people who live in NJ but work in NY and PA. Dont they get to reduce their state income taxes by what they pay in NY and PA... So NJ gets a double whammy... Just saying its not so simple ... More to life than taxes my friends...
    yes, there's gov't SPENDING !!!

    And yes there are tax credits for income taxes paid to other states on income earned in other states. This was never a problem in past decades when NJ still had decent jobs available, and when state income tax levels in all surrounding states were still a 'reasonable' percentage of gross income.


    And Mel u r right - the rich, the uber rich, always come out ahead ...
    undeniably true ! What galls me though is that according to mainstream media and both political parties the 'poor' and some 'middle class' people actually believe that the 'uber rich' are paying the 36% tax rates called for under IRS law LOL !!!

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    The primary problem at the state level in Jersey is NOT property taxes. It is the gutless failure to reform local government by making the Counties of New Jersey the primary and even sole providers of services. Instead , Jersey has a polyglot of Counties; Townships; Cities; Towns and Villages ALL with their own mayors;police; police chiefs; SCHOOL BOARDS etc.etc. THAT is the primary reason why property taxes are so high and why they keep going up.

    At the STATE level it is out of control spending coupled with the net loss of businesses and working ON THE BOOKS taxpayers that has made JERSEY technically insolvent.

    The "uber-rich" (and N.J. has a LOT of them) can afford the ridiculous property taxesalthough in many communities where the uber-rich live- Short Hills; Saddle River;Rumson ; Spring Lake the taxes aren't that bad in comparison to many surrounding places. They're high and increasing but at a lower rate than many surrounding towns.What they don't pay or manage to avoid is the N.J. Income Tax at anything approaching the rate at which they should. And even if they did, there are not enough of them making enough money to solve the structural deficit without serious budget trimming and governmental consolidation.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Btw, a primary impediment to real reform is the fact that New Jersey is one of the ONLY states that permits dual office holding. Before becoming Governor, McGreevy was a State legislator AND the Mayor of Woodbridge. Several of the state legislators recently arrested on Federal bribery raps also held local offices at the same time.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    ERic --- u have it right ... its the utter gutlessness of ALL politicos to reform government and to make budgets realistic and to not play politics... THAT has nothing to do with political parties which is my point.

    ANd Mel -- I dont think we have positive cash flow after 6 years of republican rule. Well if u consider all the debt being serviced because of their obscene spending, then yeah... Why do think our dollar is so weak ... ??

    Eric - my bud lives in Glen Rock, NJ and pays 15K or so in PPT.... He is not rich. He then winds up paying 5K more from AMT to the Feds for the privilege of having high PPT. Now thats plain wrong... But he pays no or little NJ income tax . which is my other point. Now this is totally different than down here in MD/DC/VA. When I lived in MD and worked in DC, I paid MD income tax - nothing to DC. So MD gets all the taxes but none of the burden if u will. DC got all the burden - ie hundreds of thousand of commuters who need infrastructure, blah blah - and none of the tax revenues. Of course DC gets the double whammy of not being able to get taxes from the govt offices that make up so much of the DC...

    So what do u do... Cut taxes... OK .. fine. Whitman did that. But then she didnt reform govt. So now u have problems with your budget. Gilmore had the same thing here in VA. Cut taxes... now we can be forced to pay 5 to 10K for speeding in VA. ( residents only - thanks ).... because we dont have money to maintain our roads - which use to come from our car taxes that Gilmore cut... ( Although he promised to get rid of the car tax - he reduced by 50% - I pay $23/year/car )

    ITs easy to cut taxes - a little harder to fix the real problem tho ...

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapaholic View Post
    ERic --- u have it right ... its the utter gutlessness of ALL politicos to reform government and to make budgets realistic and to not play politics... THAT has nothing to do with political parties which is my point.

    ANd Mel -- I dont think we have positive cash flow after 6 years of republican rule. Well if u consider all the debt being serviced because of their obscene spending, then yeah... Why do think our dollar is so weak ... ??

    Eric - my bud lives in Glen Rock, NJ and pays 15K or so in PPT.... He is not rich. He then winds up paying 5K more from AMT to the Feds for the privilege of having high PPT. Now thats plain wrong... But he pays no or little NJ income tax . which is my other point. Now this is totally different than down here in MD/DC/VA. When I lived in MD and worked in DC, I paid MD income tax - nothing to DC. So MD gets all the taxes but none of the burden if u will. DC got all the burden - ie hundreds of thousand of commuters who need infrastructure, blah blah - and none of the tax revenues. Of course DC gets the double whammy of not being able to get taxes from the govt offices that make up so much of the DC...

    So

    what do u do... Cut taxes... OK .. fine. Whitman did that. But then she didnt reform govt. So now u have problems with your budget. Gilmore had the same thing here in VA. Cut taxes... now we can be forced to pay 5 to 10K for speeding in VA. ( residents only - thanks ).... because we dont have money to maintain our roads - which use to come from our car taxes that Gilmore cut... ( Although he promised to get rid of the car tax - he reduced by 50% - I pay $23/year/car )

    ITs easy to cut taxes - a little harder to fix the real problem tho ...

    It IS harder to cut taxes at the State level because by law, state budgets must be balanced so they can't run temporary deficits like the Federal Government can.

    It can be done and has been done in a lot of cases but to be successful State
    tax cuts have to be coupled with spending cuts.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    For those pining for a Dem. Prez with a solidly Dem. Congress it might be helpful to look at how the Dems have wrecked the economy in New Jersey.

    When McGreevy took over in 2002 with a solidly Democrat State Legislature there was a budget deficit left over from the Whitman years.

    Rather than control spending McGreevy raised taxes on businesses and raised taxes on "milionaires".

    Now, about Five (5) years later ; after The Swallow became the new State Bird
    ( sorry, I couldn't resist ) the tax base of New Jersey continues to erode as tax rates keep climbing. What ? How could this be ? Higher taxes on "rich people" are supposed to generate surpluses and bring prosperity.Instead New jersey has one of the most serious structural deficits of any state ( New York and California are right alongside); the State Highway Trust Fund is bankrupt and New Jersey is losing TAXPAYING citizens at an accelerating rate. They are moving to Pa. ; DELAWARE and even back to New York.

    What happened was businesses stopped expanding and creating new jobs and taxpayers voted with their feet replaced MOSTLY by ILLEGAL immigrants who don't pay taxes; don't get driver's licenses; don't register their cars and don't get
    Insurance.

    Go to any town of any serious size in Northern or East-Central N.J. and it's
    "Welcome to Tiajuana" ! Hard working and law-abiding folks for the most part to be sure BUT they don't pay TAXES.
    Every person in this country conveniently forget that the $$$$ Illegal Aliens save the common household due to cheap labor. i.e we all talk about the strain on the State budget of $2 Billion and yet conveniently forget the more than $2 Billion the illegals put directly into the consumers pocket. Also, considering their income level, I think the illegals would only be 'stealing' pocket change from the budget.

    The real problem in NJ is the bloated govt. and munis.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by xanfiles1 View Post
    Every person in this country conveniently forget that the $$$$ Illegal Aliens save the common household due to cheap labor. i.e we all talk about the strain on the State budget of $2 Billion and yet conveniently forget the more than $2 Billion the illegals put directly into the consumers pocket. Also, considering their income level, I think the illegals would only be 'stealing' pocket change from the budget.

    The real problem in NJ is the bloated govt. and munis.
    How do YOU explain a state that has "lost" population having MORE and MORE
    cars on its highways and MORE and MORE unpaid for visits to its ER's ? Obviously the"legal" are being replaced with the illegal.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    How do YOU explain a state that has "lost" population having MORE and MORE
    cars on its highways and MORE and MORE unpaid for visits to its ER's ? Obviously the"legal" are being replaced with the illegal.
    I didn't deny that. Just disputing the fact that Illegals cost Americans $$$$. In the end, I think overall it is a net positive for Americans ($$$ Saved in labor - $$$ lost in Tax revenue)

    I repeat, the bigger culprits are state officials who are stealing in Billions and giving nothing in return

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by xanfiles1 View Post
    I didn't deny that. Just disputing the fact that Illegals cost Americans $$$$. In the end, I think overall it is a net positive for Americans ($$$ Saved in labor - $$$ lost in Tax revenue)

    I repeat, the bigger culprits are state officials who are stealing in Billions and giving nothing in return
    Huh ? "$$$ Saved in labor " ???? I'm sorry but I don't get it.
    Illegals drive down wages; especially among the low and unskilled.
    They don't have car or health insurance so everybody else has to pick up the tab for their car accidents ( and resultant injuries ) and health care.
    They don't pay taxes ( except Soc. Sec. for those with PHONY SS#'s ) yet
    they consume gov't services.
    A small minority commit crimes; often violent crimes.
    They crowd out LEGAL immigrants.
    They bring in untreated tropical and sub-tropical diseases and infections and are less likely to get proper and timely treatment for same.
    They send OUT a large % of what they earn i.e. they wire it home instead of spending it here.

    Most studies I have seen show that ILLEGAL immigration is a NET LOSER for the U.S. Taxpayer. Not immigration ; not LEGAL immigration but ILLEGAL immigration costs more than it is worth.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Most studies I have seen show that ILLEGAL immigration is a NET LOSER for the U.S. Taxpayer. Not immigration ; not LEGAL immigration but ILLEGAL immigration costs more than it is worth.
    Most studies from biased sources. Illegal immigrants definitely drive down prices for lazy-ass-unskilled Americans for sure and thats a good thing. Any country that incentivizes lazy-ass-unskill will go down the toilet.

    Of course, How much can a state collect from 350,000 Illegals earning less than $15000 per year? Pocket change.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Electing Republicans in the majority in 1994 was a case of the "Cure Being Worse Than the Disease." The patient came in with a tummy ache and now he's dead. The U.S. is now "Dead Man Walking."

    The big-spending Republicans have bankrupted us and exported a good part of our manufacturing. Reagan planted the seeds of our destruction with amnesty for 2.7 million illegals and the philosophy that deficits don't matter.

    Well, look at us now. If the Republicans wouldn't have been such cowards and actually cut something, we might have survived.

    If tariffs and isolationism are so bad, how come China practices these policies and is growing faster than a tumble weed? They're actually trying to slow down their growth. The Republicans say that the sky would fall if we interfere with "free" trade and impose any tariffs on imports. China does just that and their economy is booming while ours is imploding.

    Bottom line: Republicans are too incompetent and cowardly to govern effectively. In just over a decade, they've decimated the middle-class and sold our children into servitude to Oriental potentates.

    At least the Democrats want to pay for their irresponsible spending with tax increases while Republicans want to borrow till we're bankrupt and enslaved.

    As far as the States being in trouble now, the "free trade" deals and the Republican's "War on the Middle Class" have seriously weakened a lot of States. There's a shrinking middle-class to tax and more people on the dole.

    Not that the Democrats are all that great, but when the patient was wheeled in (in 1994 under Dem control) , he was still smiling, awake, and in a good mood, now he's headed for the morgue (Repub control).

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by James Bond View Post

    If tariffs and isolationism are so bad, how come China practices these policies and is growing faster than a tumble weed?
    Pretty simple, China's growth is being compared to its previous low levels. It is easier to grow if you are coming from a $500B base than a $14,000B base.

    China was closed 100% before, it opened up 40% and that is good enough to sustain the current growth. Of course it is going to hit a ceiling, then they have to open even more and even more till they reach the US level.

    It is naive to conclude that China is growing because of their protectionism and it is naive to still believe that everybody should manufacture. You should produce things that gives you more money, as simple as that

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by xanfiles1 View Post
    Pretty simple, China's growth is being compared to its previous low levels. It is easier to grow if you are coming from a $500B base than a $14,000B base.

    China was closed 100% before, it opened up 40% and that is good enough to sustain the current growth. Of course it is going to hit a ceiling, then they have to open even more and even more till they reach the US level.

    It is naive to conclude that China is growing because of their protectionism and it is naive to still believe that everybody should manufacture. You should produce things that gives you more money, as simple as that

    Japan still wants to manufacture, and so do most Asian countries. Have you ever heard of Toyota, Honda, Panasonic, Sony, Nippon, etc.?

    England tried "free trade" in the early 1900s and they lost everything. They didn't even have enough manufacturing to fight WW2 without our help.

    "Free Trade" is a scheme by the elites to get cheaper labor by moving everything to a low cost producer. They moved from England to the U.S., and now to China. If you want to have a middle-class, you have to tweak the "free-enterprise" system or you'll end up in a "Robber Baron Society" with a 3% upper-class and a 97% poverty-class, just like Mexico.

    The elites fed you a line about how "free-trade" was going to be a panacea and you fell for it. They couldn't just pack-up and leave, they needed you to open the door first with "free-trade" deals. Laws and incentives were in place to keep our manufacturing base here and not over there. I guess PT Barnum was right, there's a sucker born everyday. The elites fed that same line to England over 100 years ago, and they fell for it.

    This country's great industrial might and middle-class was founded on tariffs; the Founding Fathers agree with me on this one. Not that we should have tariffs to keep everything out, but to give the advantage to our manufacturers.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by James Bond View Post
    Japan still wants to manufacture, and so do most Asian countries. Have you ever heard of Toyota, Honda, Panasonic, Sony, Nippon, etc.?

    England tried "free trade" in the early 1900s and they lost everything. They didn't even have enough manufacturing to fight WW2 without our help.

    "Free Trade" is a scheme by the elites to get cheaper labor by moving everything to a low cost producer. They moved from England to the U.S., and now to China. If you want to have a middle-class, you have to tweak the "free-enterprise" system or you'll end up in a "Robber Baron Society" with a 3% upper-class and a 97% poverty-class, just like Mexico.

    The elites fed you a line about how "free-trade" was going to be a panacea and you fell for it. They couldn't just pack-up and leave, they needed you to open the door first with "free-trade" deals. Laws and incentives were in place to keep our manufacturing base here and not over there. I guess PT Barnum was right, there's a sucker born everyday. The elites fed that same line to England over 100 years ago, and they fell for it.

    This country's great industrial might and middle-class was founded on tariffs; the Founding Fathers agree with me on this one. Not that we should have tariffs to keep everything out, but to give the advantage to our manufacturers.
    The Founding Fathers also believed in Slavery, No-Rights to Women and probably some wrong economic theories. I have great respect for them, but also know their limitations.

    The people who are open minded, educated and work hard seem to make tons of money and lead a pretty comfortable life, while the close minded, whiners seem to blame everything from Clinton to Bush. It is not making less money that is causing them to whine, but whining is causing them to make less money

    There are thousands of companies in USA that are innovating, making cool products and services, hiring like crazy and paying shit loads of money. If you are still whining about GM and Ford then the problem lies with you. I'm surprised that you havn't thrown in Union Pacific, Amtrak and CSX as the indicator of US prosperity.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by James Bond View Post
    Japan still wants to manufacture, and so do most Asian countries. Have you ever heard of Toyota, Honda, Panasonic, Sony, Nippon, etc.?
    Of course Japan and Asian countries want to manufacture. When you can't make Dollars being a Microsoft, Google, Facebook, ExxonMobile or a Pfizer, you want to at least make pennies manufacturing cars. Thats how it works

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by xanfiles1 View Post
    Of course Japan and Asian countries want to manufacture. When you can't make Dollars being a Microsoft, Google, Facebook, ExxonMobile or a Pfizer, you want to at least make pennies manufacturing cars. Thats how it works
    Most of these companies are starting to move everything offshore, too. Most pharmaceutical companies now have their headquarters in Puerto Rico to avoid taxes.

    College students are now avoiding the IT fields because they know that their jobs are being outsourced, so IT in the U.S. will follow manufacturing in the next 10 or 20 years.

    The EU is getting back in the manufacturing game too, with the formation of Airbus to compete with Boeing. Germany is now the Worlds #1 exporter with products like autos, machine tools, chemicals, etc.

    The EU knows that you can't be powerful without manufacturing and they're headed in that direction. There's a lot we have to do in this country to make our companies more competitive, too. Our government works against us instead of for us.

    Oh, Toyota made close to $10 billion in profit last year, not exactly pennies.

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    Default Re: NJ= A PREVIEW of 2009 & beyond

    Once again New Jersey is leading the way. After DECADES of irresponsible fiscal mismanagement under both Republican and Democrat Governors; Corzine and the mental midgets of the Legislature have come up with a balanced budget that spends less money than fiscal 2008. They have set aside $650 million to pay down the state debt and fund pensions. It's all window dressing.
    None of the basic, serious, structural problems that cause New Jersey's fiscal woes have been addressed. Worse yet, the towns and villages of New Jersey are mandated to pay for "affordable housing" i.e. low income housing and are required to accept returning inmates from state prisons. Prosperous middle and upper class communities are being mandated to drive down their own property values and increase their criminal populations.

    The Highway Fund is still bankrupt and the Teacher's pension fund is still underfunded by billions.

    New Jersey is NOT unique. Decades of borrowing and spending have created a widening budget gap that is structural i.e. without radical reform it will only get worse. California is in even worse shape and New York is not far behind.

    In contrast, Texas is booming and very little has anything to do with the oil biz.
    Houston has become a hub of high tech industry. How is this happening ? Low taxes and sensible spending.

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