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Thread: Euthanizing Children...

  1. #26
    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatshepsut View Post
    Oh Farrah, I completely agree with Cameron. You had something left. Some people don't. I'm not just talking about cancer. I worked in a nursing home/hospice with some terminal cancer patients and a lot of Terri Schiavos. I have ordered the members of SW to shoot me if I ever end up like any of them.
    I worked as a county geriatric social worker at one point in my life. I've seen people in many stages as well. So I speak from first hand experience. Every case is different. I guess I'm just a firm believer and too got damn hard head to give up on people. I've had families come back and thank me for my insight, when I didn't agree with what the doctors have had to say.
    There are things out side of traditional medicines that save lives and once those avenues are ventured upon, the outcome can be amazing. Unfortunately many people don't know their options and are ready to throw in the towel..There were many times, in my battle that I was very suicidal, the pain was intense and I toyed with driving my car into a pole, you name it, it crossed my mind. If I hadn't had the responsibility of my nephew and my nieces..I know I would've. I think my attending UC Berkeley where there are people in wheelchairs who have to use their mouths to type and move their wheelchairs had a deep impact on me and I view life a whole lot differently than others do. A lot of these same people are on the deans honor role too..
    Just thought I'd add that.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    I'm pro individual liberty so I leave these decisions up to the people involved and/or their representative.

    To some, a low quality of life is preferable to no quality of low. Others feel differently.

    I am personally an organ donor and DNR.
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  3. #28
    High_Heel_Lover
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    The problem I have with is that it will be abused. Any law passed will be abused but this is huge! What if a mentally ill person is persuaded to say "I want to die"

    The value of life itself, or what is considered "life worthy" has change through out the years, back when people would kill handicap people because to them they had nothing to contribute to the world I can see this happening all over again "well since this kid won't be able to do this, or that then might as well put them out of their misery"

    Miraculous recoveries also occur, new findings of medications can help and even sustain a person much longer and who knows if an ill person can recover and live a good life. The process of determining weather a person should be euthanized or not will be very costly also.


    I dunno, just kinda creeps me out if another person can determine if I'm worth fighting for to live.

  4. #29
    cameron_keys
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    I think this issue is so very VERY personal that it should be left 100% up to the individual and/or their family. Government should never step into issues this personal.

    Sadly..they always do.

    What is right for one person/family can very well devastate another. And nobody has the right to decide for them.

  5. #30
    High_Heel_Lover
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron_keys View Post
    I think this issue is so very VERY personal that it should be left 100% up to the individual and/or their family. Government should never step into issues this personal.

    Sadly..they always do.

    What is right for one person/family can very well devastate another. And nobody has the right to decide for them.
    You are a wise cookie.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    I dunno, just kinda creeps me out if another person can determine if I'm worth fighting for to live.
    That's one of the nastier side effects of government involvement in medical care, because these kind of decisions will come up daily.

    Medical resources, like everything else, has to be rationed and politics will play a major role in that as the government's presence in healthcare expands.
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  7. #32
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron_keys View Post
    I think this issue is so very VERY personal that it should be left 100% up to the individual and/or their family. Government should never step into issues this personal.

    Sadly..they always do.

    What is right for one person/family can very well devastate another. And nobody has the right to decide for them.
    Winner! Me too.

  8. #33
    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Like was already mentioned, you were cognizant, aware of your situations and surroundings, thus capable of making your own decisions. Yes people have come out of comas, occasionally after years. Their cases were not hopeless very often, the body resets after a shock and they wake up.

    There are children as well as adults that will never be healthy or capable of anything beyond existing in a hospital bed. There a tragic cases of congenital birth defects, which even with the best of the best medicine, will never be anything but hopeless. I can't fathom the people that have a child that is 100% disabled and dependent on them for Life itself. What will they do in the following years when they need care and the child now an adult lives. To those Parents I say try again or if the chances are nto good in the future, adopt.

    Maybe the Spartans were not so barbaric after all?
    Funny, I typed a long response to you that ended with "we can debate this all day but, I've haven't eaten yet and I have a lot more important things to do with my day". As I went to send it, I was sent to a page to log in again. I guess that just shows me where I really need to direct my attentions and it's not here. I just didn't want to ignore your post.
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  9. #34
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrah_Holiday View Post
    Funny, I typed a long response to you that ended with "we can debate this all day but, I've haven't eaten yet and I have a lot more important things to do with my day". As I went to send it, I was sent to a page to log in again. I guess that just shows me where I really need to direct my attentions and it's not here. I just didn't want to ignore your post.
    What could be more important than the moral and ethical questions pertaining to life?

    For a SoCal liberal that attended Berkeley; you sound very much like a mid west Republican. Welcome to that grey are were Libertarians lurk.

    Anyhoo like I said it should be up to the family and same as it should be up to the mother. Pro choice and Pro Euthansia.

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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    I'm a libertarian, I don't consider it a gray area at all.

    I believe firmly in right and wrong. No gray.

    Aggressive violence is wrong. Period. No excuses for Gods or Governments.
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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t View Post
    I believe firmly in right and wrong. No gray.
    See to me the ultimate wrong is a mind, society, and laws that allow for no grays and must see everything in absolute right or wrongs. Nothing scares me more or screams to me "child-like mentality". I see it as the root of the vast majority of why our societies and governments fail, the inability of people and governments to let go of simplistic all or nothing, right or wrong, thinking.

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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Governments fail because they are inherently evil, whereas people individually or not. The idea we require a state is a social error. It is being corrected slowly.

    Some things are clear cut, it is my belief. I have yet to see good reason for aggressive violence. Since states are built on this premise, they are evil institutions(in my metaphysics).

    To me, the idea of "gray area" is the more child like mentality because it seeks to avoid discussing the tough questions. It is far easier to take the gray-way out than it is to reason through and stand and defend a principle.

    A principle that is flexible isn't really a principle at all. I try not to have an ad hoc philosophy on politics. I derive everything from the initial starting point of being against coercion.
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  13. #38
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t View Post
    Governments fail because they are inherently evil, whereas people individually or not.
    I got to stop you there bro... that's just more all or nothing think that I don't buy. Governments don't exist without people; people staff them, people make them; people make them for a reason. I'd be scared but I'm not anymore. I just faced facts long ago that everyone wants simplistic answers to complex social problems and for those that do, these types of conversations are entirely pointless (in that they lead nowhere at all).

    In other words, when you finally accept there are no perfect answers to some problems, a lot of issues become a lot easier to discuss, like Euthenasia, that doesn't require an all or nothing choice (IMHO). Sometimes it's appropriate. Sometimes not. There is no clear cut answer. Accepting it takes some guts to let go and accept that people can and will figure out what works more or less.

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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Indeed governments are just collections of some people relative to the rest of us. But unlike individuals-at-large, governments(states) are qua based on aggressive force. Taxation being just one example; robbery renamed.

    They are made because some realize they are an effective way to dupe people and exert hegemony over others.

    To me the answer is pretty simple. Governments have to weave complex excuses and explanations in order to justify to the population why policies that actually hurt them are "good for them."

    I find these kind of conversations to be the only real way for the world to change, myself. Ideas are what ultimately shapes the world, and the more the state is de-legitimized, the closer I get to my goal.
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  15. #40
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t View Post
    Taxation being just one example; robbery renamed.
    What you think of as robbery I think of as ... without government, society rapidly retreats to survival of the fittest and strongest. That's not fundamentally a bad thing IMHO, but it's not fundamentally good either. In practice the fittest love that arrangement, and the not-fittest find it be to tolerable at best, humiliating and without hope at the worst.

    Society and people have an opportunity to work together and create entities (i.e., governments, corporations, etc.) which strive for goals that go above and beyond individuals; that set standards that don't strictly favor the fittest; that pool money from individuals to work on large scale projects the benefit the masses (e.g., taxes collected to protect a society from it's neighbors; taxes collected to build a 3rd generation particle accelerator to increase the public's knowledge of sub-atomic reality; etc.) that individuals simply can't and won't be motivated to do.

    In other words, to simply write off governments as simplistically "evil" without also weighing in the benefits is exactly the type of all or nothing think that scares the hell out of me (although I fully accept and expect it as common think).

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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    We don't require a state for any of those things. For example, if particle accelators had a good commercial purpose, they would be provided without much issue. The problem is that most people have no use for them and thus don't contribute money to have them. What the government does now is remove money from us in order to subsidize those fewer individuals who DO care about such devices. Our ability to satisfy our needs/wants is diminished so those with a particle accelerator fetish can have one. That doesn't serve society at all. VOLUNTARY exchange is the only way to know what is truly demanded by society. when you take people's money away by force and then call it "productive", it is a gross error and injustice.

    I did not "simply" write government off. It took many years as a lesser libertarian type to get to this point. Scary to me is the almost instinct belief that we need an agency of violence to produce things that would be very readily produced privately, assuming they are demanded at the sufficient level.

    Governments do not abridge the idea of "survival of the fittest". In fact, many note that government acts as a DE-civilization force, cheapening the application of violence for obtaining desires. People that would never advocate "private robbery" of a rich individual have no trouble with robbery via majority vote.
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  17. #42
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t View Post
    We don't require a state for any of those things. For example, if particle accelators had a good commercial purpose, they would be provided without much issue. The problem is that most people have no use for them and thus don't contribute money to have them.
    Seriously, give up your electronic devices then, since they are the result of sub-atomic research. The problem here is your EGO. If you understood physics you would know that much of what you rely on day to day including the computer is the result of much work in physics which is in part due to sub-atomic research.

    Look, nobody likes to feel dumb, but the fact is most of us are dumb fucks when it comes to physics. But to write that off as we don't need it is incredibly naive to a degree that just scares the fuck out of me Sh0t. And what scares me even more is I'm surrounded by people that are beneficiaries of science, but because they don't have the slightest clue how much they benefit, they instead write it all of as useless to save their own EGOs from feeling dumb.

    I agree the world sucks ass, but to me it sucks ass because its full of dumb-fucks. Governments are just collections of dumbfucks, but the dumbfucks are there all along.

  18. #43
    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    What could be more important than the moral and ethical questions pertaining to life?

    For a SoCal liberal that attended Berkeley; you sound very much like a mid west Republican. Welcome to that grey are were Libertarians lurk.

    Anyhoo like I said it should be up to the family and same as it should be up to the mother. Pro choice and Pro Euthansia.
    Recheck your geography..Berkeley is in NOR CAL about 8 hours from So Cal..Where I live by the way, the Bay Area..never to be confussed with LA or any parts of SO CAL !
    I'm in no way going to take your post personally since you don't even know where the university is or where I'm coming from for that matter.

    I'm pro-choice and pro-euthanizing ( to some degree) IF that's what the person wants. Like I said in my post, I'd toyed with ending it several times when faced with stage 3 cancer that was painfully spreading through my body and after going through intense treatments and several surgeries..At the same time, I was injured at work and that left me unable to walk several times and I had to rely on a wheelchair to get me around..My worst nightmare..I lived with lots of uncertainty..I'd be better for a while and regress over night..Luckily for me I happened to encounter 3 people that made a huge difference in my life..1 was a lady who'd battled the disease for 20 YEARS ! She'd get over it and then be diagnosed with a tumor again and again. Her spirit and determination was amazing and quite powerful..She was very uplifting to be around..The 2nd was a person whose co-worker had also been given a death sentence by her doctor, she didn't accept it and went to live with family in Puerto Pico. She returned 6 months later cancer free. The 3rd was my cousin who lives in Bermuda, he stayed by my side (via emails and phone calls) he gave me nutritional advice that save me. Luckily I listened and I got over myself ,thankfully I had little ones who needed me and I could never do anything so selfish to them..That's my choice though and other's have their own opinions..This thread is about euthanizing children and while I'm a pro-choice supporter I feel "killing" a child that is already here is wrong. I see what things children can become when given the opportunity . I applaud those who take on the challenge. But, I don't look down on the ones who put the child up for adoption. My god aunt has special needs children that she fosters and has adopted 3. So, I'm not just sitting behind a computer typing just to be typing. Everything I say is from MY FIRST hand experiences.


    Also, I'm a huge supporter of Kavorkian, if that's what someone CHOSES to do.. It's about CHOICE.. My problem is with those who make that choice for others. Unfortunately many patients and families only take the doctor's advice and do whatever the doctor's suggest without researching and looking for other options.. I mentioned that in my posts several times..But, I guess you over looked it and thought well I'll run with what I want to..It's very important to leave documentation on what you want done if you're ever in that position.

    I also have a problem with pro-lifers who deny a woman the right to have an abortion than bitch about welfare moms. It's funny how people have lots of opinions yet, never get off their asses to help the women they've blocked from getting abortions in the first place. We spend more money bailing out big business than is ever spent on welfare and the money is never paid back..Yet, some of the American public isn't as outraged about that,as they are over a pregnant woman receiving abortions with tax payers dollars. It pisses me off how many women in states like Texas and Louisana who are denied government funded abortons, I know I've personally paid for 2 to have procedures out of my pocket.

    I find that to be true in life in general, everyone wants to run their mouths yet, when you ask what they've ACTUALLY done to make a difference they're suddenly silent or become defensive.

    Also to answer your question : What could be more important than the moral and ethical questions pertaining to life?

    My laying on the beautiful Waikiki beach and living the life I'm thankfully here to live !
    Last edited by Farrah_Holiday; 10-22-2007 at 11:26 AM.
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  19. #44
    Senior Member shirtystrumpet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Deogol, all I meant by that is that the Weekly Standard is a neocon shithole.
    & that you can't expect anything unbiased to come out of that.

  20. #45
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Well. Here is the hard case. Tay-Sachs. And it is super hard because there is a racial element to it as well. A person with Tay-Sachs will not reach the age of reason, and his or her entire life leading up to their pre-age of reason death will be intensely and remittingly painful. I saw it on Law and Order - but I looked it up on the Tay-Sachs Disease Information Page to make sure (for those of ya'all that want a source - NBC). Apparently the great majority of people with Tay-Sachs are Jewish. Is it okay to euthanize these children?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    We talked about this a lot in contemporay ethics. Tay-Sachs comes up for almost all ethicists, because it's one disease pretty well everyone thinks is a fate worse than death. It really, truly is a horrible life, for the reasons Jenny said. The only thing someone with Tay-Sachs could look forward to, if they could ever experience self-awarenes, would be the end of all their suffering.

    ...Utilitarians push it sometimes further than that. Peter Singer thinks that permanently brain damaged infants should not have anymore rights than sentient animals. But mosts 'rights based' doctrine basically relies on principles that says certain actions, like killing innocent people, are never justified. Pain or suffering do not factor in, because they try to hold out for the idea that a cure might ever be found.

    I don't know, personally. In certain poverty stricken parts of India, female infanticide is very common because dowries are so expensive. I think that's horrible, but I also think it's pretty sketchy to claim that a life of something like Tay-Sachs is better than nonexistence.

    Many abortion debates also focus on 'what makes a person', and some of philosophers claim that a certain amount of reason and self-consciousness needs to be in place before 'personhood' can be rewarded...which would allow for infanticide, as well as late-term abortions. Most people seem to think there is something special about the point in time when the baby is viable (five months these days?).

    If anything, I do believe that sometimes a choice of nonexistence is better than existence, but these are decisions best made what the potential person in question is still a fetus, if possible. Then again, I'd be hard pressed to think of a reason not to end the inevitable horrible suffering of a Tay-Sachs baby, except that it perhaps leads to a slippery slope of uncomfortable precedents...

  22. #47
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    This debate reminds me of the abortion debate. Some people basically argue that the moment a child is conceived, even though it is nothing more then a simple cell, it's a human and it would be murder to kill it. Others of course argue it's a big grey scale, from a few cells to baby and over time those cells become more and more human. The simple answer is abortion is ALWAYS (black or white) WRONG. And the complex answer is that it's complex, and sometimes more wrong and sometimes more right then other times. I prefer the complex view and leaving it open ended.

  23. #48
    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    This debate reminds me of the abortion debate. Some people basically argue that the moment a child is conceived, even though it is nothing more then a simple cell, it's a human and it would be murder to kill it. Others of course argue it's a big grey scale, from a few cells to baby and over time those cells become more and more human. The simple answer is abortion is ALWAYS (black or white) WRONG. And the complex answer is that it's complex, and sometimes more wrong and sometimes more right then other times. I prefer the complex view and leaving it open ended.
    It is very complex..I prefer to leave it open ended as well. My heart breaks thinking about euthanizing children..But, that's just the way I feel. I respect other's views as well, all though I might not always agree. I still respect another's right to chose what works for them.
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  24. #49
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Euthanizing Children...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrah_Holiday View Post
    It is very complex..I prefer to leave it open ended as well. My heart breaks thinking about euthanizing children..But, that's just the way I feel. I respect other's views as well, all though I might not always agree. I still respect another's right to chose what works for them.
    Right. Nothing wrong with "feeling" bad about it - it says something about our sense of humanity, and good that we temper our choices with compassion, but the reality is not always such a nice thing, and our feelings must be weighed against intellect and a realistic assessing of the facts. Sometimes the facts are pretty damn sucky I also respect other's rights to choose given their situation.

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