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Thread: Karma

  1. #1
    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Karma

    Ok, the concept of karma surfaces in just about every other thread here. Any time someone is wronged or tells of a person who has made some transgression, inevitably there is at least one person who'll reply and say that "karma will bite her in the ass" or whatever.

    I mean, yeah, if you run around slapping people upside the head eventually someone is gonna slap you back. Is that all people mean by "karma" or is it something larger--a belief that there is ultimately some sense of justice in the universe? That when the chips fall they will invetibly fall into the right place?

    If it's the former it seems like just a set up for a spiral of retribution and essentially an endorsement of vigilante justice. If it's the latter it seems like a way for people to take comfort by convincing themselves that since they are a good person, good things will eventually come to them and that bad people will be punished (pretty much the same way I view the Christian heaven).

    I don't think I'm a nihilist or anything, but I damn sure don't believe there is a hell of a lot of order.

    I don't know. Discuss. Or not. It doesn't matter.

  2. #2
    Yekhefah
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    I would like to believe that there is justice in this universe, but then I look at people like George W. Bush living the way they do, and I look at my grandmother, who has never been anything less than a saint throughout her life and who is suffering terribly and dying slowly. So yeah... I'm with you. No order, no justice, at least not outside of that which we impose ourselves. That's why I'm Jewish and not Christian.

  3. #3
    BrunetteGoddess
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    Default Re: Karma

    Lately I've started to begin questioning what I believe in period. I'm very confused.

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    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    I don't believe in karma like this universal set of justice scales, but I believe that things and especially peoples lives move in circles and everyone has the potential to end up back where they started.



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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    Ok, the concept of karma surfaces in just about every other thread here. Any time someone is wronged or tells of a person who has made some transgression, inevitably there is at least one person who'll reply and say that "karma will bite her in the ass" or whatever.

    I mean, yeah, if you run around slapping people upside the head eventually someone is gonna slap you back. Is that all people mean by "karma" or is it something larger--a belief that there is ultimately some sense of justice in the universe? That when the chips fall they will invetibly fall into the right place?

    If it's the former it seems like just a set up for a spiral of retribution and essentially an endorsement of vigilante justice. If it's the latter it seems like a way for people to take comfort by convincing themselves that since they are a good person, good things will eventually come to them and that bad people will be punished (pretty much the same way I view the Christian heaven).

    I don't think I'm a nihilist or anything, but I damn sure don't believe there is a hell of a lot of order.

    I don't know. Discuss. Or not. It doesn't matter.
    the Christian heaven doesn't work the way you're describing (in fact what you're talking about isn't Christianity at all), but karma does. karma is a very cruel conception of the universe, a brutal endless wheel.

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    I don't believe in any cosmic bookkeeping. It would be nice if everything was fair, and justice prevailed always, but I just don't see it. Still, I do think that we intuitively are aware to some degree when others around us are merciful and helpful vs the opposites, and we tend to give those people a break and help when they need it too. Conversely, those who tend to be merciless will tend to find others reveling in their failures when they happen. The main reason for doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is that if everyone does that, it tends to lead to a much better society to live in for all of us. Likewise if we don't, things tend to quickly turn into survival of the fittest (often just the luckiest) and the rest tend to suffer.

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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    I don't believe in any cosmic bookkeeping. It would be nice if everything was fair, and justice prevailed always, but I just don't see it. Still, I do think that we intuitively are aware to some degree when others around us are merciful and helpful vs the opposites, and we tend to give those people a break and help when they need it too. Conversely, those who tend to be merciless will tend to find others reveling in their failures when they happen. The main reason for doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is that if everyone does that, it tends to lead to a much better society to live in for all of us. Likewise if we don't, things tend to quickly turn into survival of the fittest (often just the luckiest) and the rest tend to suffer.
    this is not actually true in practice.

  8. #8
    Alaska
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    and essentially an endorsement of vigilante justice.
    That's what I've always concluded was the bottom line of what ppl feel. Not really, but, like anything else it's just a way ppl try to make sense of stuff....tho the Karma comments don't even seem half thought-through most of the time.

    Nothing wrong with being a nihilst.

    Tho, Wikipedia did have this to say:

    "The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence."


    THAT....no. That's not me. Cuz I take a great deal of comfort in the fact that I grew up atheist (guess you could say nihilist) because it's way too exhausting, all this searching for truths and meaning.

    Like sucks and then you die. (Fuck it all let's get high?) no jk.

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    Featured Member Sunshine73's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    I believe that it is extremely important to love and respect all of life, because whatever you throw out there, you get right back.

    I too believe that good people get rewarded and evil people get their just desserts, both in this world and in the afterlife.

    If we are kind, we'll have joy. Simple as that. If you are good, you will attract more happiness, and if you are evil, well, you get the idea.

    Honestly I have seen karma in action too many times for me not to be a believer. There is a definite order in this universe. It is much more organized than we perceive it to be. There are no such thing as coincidences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Picaresque View Post
    Maria Callas said it best: "When my critics stop hissing, I shall know I'm slipping."

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    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    Yek--I know NOTHING about Judaism so I am intrigued by your statement. Care to explain?

  11. #11
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    this is not actually true in practice.
    Which part is not true?

    Also note the frequent use of the word "tends" in my sentences. I don't believe in absolutes. I do however believe in increasing probabilities and statistical likely hoods, including the likely hood that humans will tend (there is that word again) to behave in certain ways. I think if anyone wants a system that provides absolute guarantees, they are bound to be very disappointed in life and others (as well as probably not being fully aware of their own tendencies to disappoint others).

  12. #12
    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    "The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence."
    This is me. Please teach me of your ways.

  13. #13
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Karma

    Christianity teaches that the world is perfect and we are flawed, and everything that's wrong in the world is because we are sinners. If it were not for original sin, then everything in the world would still be perfect.

    Judaism teaches the near-opposite. There are a lot of varying beliefs because Jews don't believe in dogma, so we tend to have varying opinions, but the general consensus is that we were created in the image of the divine and we have the same capacity to create and improve. Many Jews believe that the Creator intentionally left flaws in this world so that we would become better through our efforts to improve it. Instead of the Christian "original sin" concept, we believe that every person is born with the inclination to do good and the inclination to do wrong, and we better ourselves and the world around us every time we choose to do good when doing the wrong thing seems more appealing. We also believe that every person is born with the moral obligation to leave the world a little better than s/he found it.

    That's what I meant about the order and justice that we create for ourselves.

    Too many people believe that Judaism is just like Christianity without Jesus. This is not true at all; the two faiths have about as much in common as Hinduism and Islam. The term "Judeo-Christian" really grates on my nerves because we have such huge fundamental differences.

  14. #14
    Jay Zeno
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    The universe actually does balance its books. Conservation of energy and all that. So it's intuitive to believe that on the scale of human behavior, too. Whether or not it actually happens that way is up to our individual perceptions and beliefs.

  15. #15
    Jay Zeno
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    Hmmm... I'd considered the Torah to contain a fair amount of dogma for Judaism. Of course, rabbinical teachings differ on how authoritative a certain statement may be, but so do teachings of Christianity.

  16. #16
    Alaska
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    Truthfully, I'm happy as hell that there's nothing to question. I didn't have to go to church to learn things that might conflict with how I feel. A great sigh of relief that life is just.....going on and happening. (well, I guess this discussion is about Karma which is Indian right?) I don't believe in Karma, just coincidence and circumstance. I am def not one of those "everything happens for a reason" people. You're either in the right place @ the right time or you're not. That's very comforting to realize, and a great weight is lifted when you don't have to agonize over things that can never be proven.

    Regarding the religion thing, I just think, if I find myself greeting God at the end of my life, and he's gotta made the decision to let me in or not, that he would, because I've lived my crazy life and been thru all the unfairness without the help of my beliefs to make it easier. I told this to my friend who grew up catholic tho, and she reminded me that of course, the #1 sin is Not Believing, so I guess I'm fucked in that regard.

    Life is mostly crap with good stuff mixed in. It's challenging enough to make your life fun, good, and peaceful working with what you already have.

    The fact that our existance is pointless, doesn't bother me at all. I just act like I'm inspired to make the most out of it, find yr own personal happiness and all that. That's all any of us should be required to do.

  17. #17
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    The universe actually does balance its books. Conservation of energy and all that. So it's intuitive to believe that on the scale of human behavior, too. Whether or not it actually happens that way is up to our individual perceptions and beliefs.
    Yes, and no. Conservation of energy is true. Problem is so is Entropy, and people intuitively sense that it is easier to destroy then to create. If we are going to pick a physical law and apply it to social systems, people often also intuitively sense a pattern of general decline. Personally I think either is a mis-leading intuitive sense, but that would require several paragraphs to explain why and I don't care enough.

  18. #18
    Yekhefah
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    Yeah, but interpretations vary widely. If "you shall not murder an innocent person" is dogma, well okay, but the Talmud asks, "which people are innocent?" (Just an example I'm making up, not an actual exchange.) Since we place far more emphasis on what you do than how you believe, our beliefs vary widely from movement to movement and also from one individual to another. There's an old saying, ask two Jews a question and you'll get three different opinions. This hearty support of opinion and dissent is one of the first things that really attracted me to Judaism.

  19. #19
    Alaska
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    This hearty support of opinion and dissent is one of the first things that really attracted me to Judaism.
    My boyfriend always tells me about his Religions Of The World class and how they had to visit 10 different churches in the course of the semester, and he says if he had to pick a religion, he'd pick Judaism, because he was so impressed with the Temple he visited.....that the service consisted of so much political discussion, basically that it was more like people discussing stuff rather than getting preached at, that people were intelligent, and non-judgemental.


    Growing up, I always said I'm 1/2 Jewish to describe nationality, but though my dad grew up Jewish, he's an atheist so it's not really accurate.

    But that makes me kinda proud to have Jewish family, as little as I know about my own culture.

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    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    Wow! Thanks for explaining all that, Yek. That was truly enlightening. I know very little about religions other than Christianity and guess I pretty much grew up thinking that Judaism was, as you put it, Christianity without Christ. In fact, I was taught that Jews are waiting for the Messiah but don't Jesus was it. So, while he came along and saved all the Christians, all the Jews are still just lost in the wilderness, waiting for their Messiah. Based on your explanation of Judaism I will now hang my head in ignorant redneck shame.

    And, wait a minute--Hinduism and Islam aren't the same thing? (I keed, I keed!!)

  21. #21
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    Conservation of energy is true. Problem is so is Entropy
    Let me phrase it another way. We look around us and see a closed system. So it's easy to intuit that human interactions and behavior balance out, too. Not that I necessarily believe it. Just noting the phenomenon.

    If I had to start at ground zero and pick a religion from my observations on them, it'd be Buddhism because it emphasizes personal enlightenment, however it may lead you, and you don't see people fighting religious wars over Buddhism. But thank goodness I don't have to pick a religion.

  22. #22
    Yekhefah
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    Heh... gotta love a faith where the athiests are still embraced as part of the community! I don't know any Christian Atheists, but I know a lot of Jewish Athiests who are still completely welcomed and accepted as Jews. It's awesome.

    Some of the rabbinic literature even says you don't have to believe in G-d to be a righteous Jew. We feel that what you believe doesn't matter nearly as much as what you do, so if you still live righteously under Jewish law, nobody cares if you believe in G-d or not.

  23. #23
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    Let me phrase it another way. We look around us and see a closed system. So it's easy to intuit that human interactions and behavior balance out, too. Not that I necessarily believe it. Just noting the phenomenon.
    Gotcha.

  24. #24
    Yekhefah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel
    In fact, I was taught that Jews are waiting for the Messiah because just don't Jesus was it. So, while he came along and saved all the Christians, all the Jews are still just lost in the wilderness, waiting for their Messiah.
    I was taught that too as a kid, and the adults who taught me that never realized how incredibly wrong they were. I don't want to turn this into the Judaism Thread, but even our ideas of the Messiah are RADICALLY different from the Christian concept, and the Messiah has very little to do with our day-to-day life or religious worship. In the Jewish idea, the Messiah isn't a deity, he's a military leader and perfectly human (no goofy virgin birth or being his own son). And we've managed to get along without him so far... in fact I think if you asked most American Jews if they wanted the Messiah to come, they'd say no.

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    Default Re: Karma

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    Christianity teaches that the world is perfect and we are flawed, and everything that's wrong in the world is because we are sinners. If it were not for original sin, then everything in the world would still be perfect.

    Judaism teaches the near-opposite. There are a lot of varying beliefs because Jews don't believe in dogma, so we tend to have varying opinions, but the general consensus is that we were created in the image of the divine and we have the same capacity to create and improve. Many Jews believe that the Creator intentionally left flaws in this world so that we would become better through our efforts to improve it. Instead of the Christian "original sin" concept, we believe that every person is born with the inclination to do good and the inclination to do wrong, and we better ourselves and the world around us every time we choose to do good when doing the wrong thing seems more appealing. We also believe that every person is born with the moral obligation to leave the world a little better than s/he found it.

    That's what I meant about the order and justice that we create for ourselves.

    Too many people believe that Judaism is just like Christianity without Jesus. This is not true at all; the two faiths have about as much in common as Hinduism and Islam. The term "Judeo-Christian" really grates on my nerves because we have such huge fundamental differences.
    Well. You believe in heaven and hell, God and Satan, right? And much of your holy book is taken up with sin and punishment by God, right? Plagues, cities burning, that kind of thing? That's the basic ideology people are referring to when they say Judeo-Christion.



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