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Thread: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

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    Default The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    A trial about what most of the 20th century was about. Good and bad. Science was on trial and won, social darwinism was on trial and lost 30 years before the Nazis got their asses kicked. The Defense attourney called the PROSECUTOR (a 3 time presidential candidate) to the witness stand! Literally like a John Grisham Novel.

    Plus, it has Clarence Darrow (a hero of mine) as the good guy and some fundie whacky who "doesn't think anout things he doesn't think about" but "sometimes thinks about things he does think about" as the villan. This is a 100% true story.


    In 1925 a dude named Scopes decided to teach Evolution in a Tennessee high school. He gets ARRESTED cause there's laws about godless teachings threatening the souls of kiddos. The ACLU enters the pic, they get hotshot lawyer Clarence Darrow (A hero of mine) to defend Scopes and challenge the Tennessee law against evolution.

    Here's a quote from the actual transcripts of the trial...

    Darrow--Great applause from the bleachers.
    Bryan (Prosecuting attourney, Fundementalist, 3 time presidentioal candidate, and
    ON THE WITNESS STAND)--From those whom you call "Yokels."
    Darrow--I have never called them yokels.


    Fuck it, here's some more...

    The Court--Mr. Bryan, you are not objecting to going on the stand?
    Bryan--Not at all.
    The Court--Do you want Mr. Bryan sworn?
    Darrow--No.
    Bryan--I can make affirmation; I can say "So help me God, I will tell the truth."
    Darrow--No, I take it you will tell the truth, Mr. Bryan.


    Darrow--You claim that everything in the Bible should be literally interpreted?
    Bryan--I believe everything in the Bible should be accepted as it is given there: some of the Bible is given illustratively. For instance: "Ye are the salt of the earth." I would not insist that man was actually salt, or that he had flesh of salt, but it is used in the sense of salt as saving God's people.
    Darrow--But when you read that Jonah swallowed the whale--or that the whale swallowed Jonah-- excuse me please--how do you literally interpret that?
    Bryan--When I read that a big fish swallowed Jonah--it does not say whale....That is my recollection of it. A big fish, and I believe it, and I believe in a God who can make a whale and can make a man and make both what He pleases.



    Darrow--Wait until you get to me. Do you know anything about how many people there were in Egypt 3,500 years ago, or how many people there were in China 5,000 years ago?
    Bryan--No.
    Darrow--Have you ever tried to find out?
    Bryan--No, sir. You are the first man I ever heard of who has been in interested in it. (Laughter.)
    Darrow--Mr. Bryan, am I the first man you ever heard of who has been interested in the age of human societies and primitive man?
    Bryan--You are the first man I ever heard speak of the number of people at those different periods.
    Darrow--Where have you lived all your life?



    Darrow--We have the purpose of preventing bigots and ignoramuses from controlling the education of the United States.


    Darrow--Do you know there are thousands of books in our libraries on all those subjects I have been asking you about?
    Bryan--I couldn't say, but I will take your word for it....
    Darrow--Have you any idea how old the earth is?
    Bryan--No.
    Darrow--The Book you have introduced in evidence tells you, doesn't it?
    Bryan--I don't think it does, Mr. Darrow.
    Darrow--Let's see whether it does; is this the one?
    Bryan--That is the one, I think.
    Darrow--It says B.C. 4004?

    And, finally, my favorite...

    Bryan--Your Honor, I think I can shorten this testimony. The only purpose Mr. Darrow has is to slur at the Bible, but I will answer his question. I will answer it all at once, and I have no objection in the world, I want the world to know that this man, who does not believe in a God, is trying to use a court in Tennesseee--
    Darrow--I object to that.
    Bryan--(Continuing) to slur at it, and while it will require time, I am willing to take it.
    Darrow--I object to your statement. I am exempting you on your fool ideas that no intelligent Christian on earth believes.
    The Court--Court is adjourned until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Would that the trial had actually settled the matter.

    People (and school boards) are still trying to get evolution OUT of the science curriculum and/or creationism IN.

    You should read the letters to the editor here from time to time: "Evolution is only a theory." "There is no evidence to support macro-evolution."

    Then the atheists chime in with their side.

    If you believed the letters to the editor, there are only two groups of people, Christians who don't believe in evolution and atheists who do. In the real world, most Christians have no problem at all with evolution. In fact, there is a web site http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/rel_evol_sun.htm where over 11,000 clergy have signed a letter in support of teaching evolution in the schools.

    Teach science in school, teach religion at church. Good religion and good science will never have any conflicts with each other.

    <steps down off of soapbox>

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Would that it were ever that easy...

    No evidence to support evolution?... Aside from that you can see it occurring RIGHT NOW, no, I guess there isn't. Oops.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Bryon's major motivation was his opposition to Eugenics and his belief that , correct, the "science" being taught in that school was just another belief system like a religion, but was very harmful. The Eugenics movement took root in America and was responsible for a lot of forced sterilizations, etc.

    The idea the Scopes trial was about ignorance versus science is utterly false and is in the "comic book" view of history.

    In retrospect, the Scopes trial was a strange event. First, it was a widely covered media event: 200 reporters, 65 telegraph operators, and a Chicago station's radio broadcasts of the trial--the first American trial ever broadcast by radio.(145) Second, the jury was excluded from the trial's technical debates.(146) Third, neither Bryan nor the American Civil Liberties Union wanted it to be conducted as a criminal trial. Bryan offered in advance to pay any fine imposed on Scopes.(147) After the trial, Scopes, who never testified at the trial, told one reporter that he had not been present in the classroom on the day that evolution was covered in the textbook, and that he had feared being put on the witness stand, where he would have had to admit this.

    The origins of the trial are generally unknown. It was begun as a public relations stunt by a group of Dayton businessmen. They had heard of the challenge by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) regarding a test case for the Tennessee law against teaching evolution in the public schools. They thought that if they could get someone in Dayton to confess to having taught evolution in the local high school, the town would get a lot of free publicity. We can hardly fault their assessment of the potential for free publicity – monetarily free, that is.

    Scopes agreed to be the official victim. The irony is this: he was not sure that he had actually taught from the sections of the biology textbook that taught Darwinism. Had he been put on the witness stand and asked by the defense if he had taught evolution, he would have had to say he did not recall. He was never put on the stand.

    Also forgotten is the content of the textbook in question. The Wikipedia encyclopedia entry has refreshed our memories. The textbook, like most evolution textbooks of the era, was committed to eugenics and a theory of racial superiority. The textbook declared:
    "Although anatomically there is a greater difference between the lowest type of monkey and the highest type of ape than there is between the highest type of ape and the lowest savage, yet there is an immense mental gap between monkey and man. At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the others in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, in structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America." (pp. 195–196).

    ". . . if such people were lower animals, we would probably kill them off to prevent them from spreading. Humanity will not allow this, but we do have the remedy of separating the sexes in asylums or other places and in various ways of preventing intermarriage and the possibilities of perpetuating such a low and degenerate race. Remedies of this sort have been tried successfully in Europe and are now meeting with success in this country." (pp. 263–265).
    This was the wisdom of high school biology textbooks, circa 1925. The ACLU came to its defense. This information had to be brought to the children of Tennessee, the ACLU decided.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Wow, interesting stuff Sh0t. Its amazing to see how we recall history, and what actually might have come down!

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Madcap, have you ever seen the play or movie "Inherit the Wind"? It's a dramatization of the Scopes Trial. The movie's a great oldie-but-goodie, though I once saw it on stage and preferred what they did with it there. Check it out sometime! Some of the dialogue is taken more or less directly from the transcripts, including what you cited above.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Please don't think Inherit the Wind is anything near historically accurate
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Of course it's not. Neither is "The Crucible", or "Amadeus", or any other drama that uses a historical event or real historical figures as points of departure for a fictitious work. The point is that they dramatize underlying conflicts and how the humans involved interact and change through that conflict.
    "Before I conceived you, I wanted you. Before you were born, I loved you. Before you were here an hour, I would die for you. This is the miracle of life." -- Maureen Hawkins

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Quote Originally Posted by RoseWhite View Post
    Madcap, have you ever seen the play or movie "Inherit the Wind"? It's a dramatization of the Scopes Trial. The movie's a great oldie-but-goodie, though I once saw it on stage and preferred what they did with it there. Check it out sometime! Some of the dialogue is taken more or less directly from the transcripts, including what you cited above.

    Yah, sweets, i have indeed. Spencer Tracy.

    And Sh0t, i buy thet Bryan wasn't a villain, that his oppopsition to evolution was based in a DIFFERENT ridiculousness (fear of eugenics, the moral validity of a true thing has no effect on it's truth. It's also true that if you bust an atom you make a BOOM, IT JUST IS, no morals involved). Bryan was a racist in today's standards, but VERY progressive in 1925 white guy's standards. But Clarence Darrow went down there to defend science from retards. You can BANK on that one. AND he managed to CALL THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY to the witness stand. And he defeated him so utterly that five days layer the man croaked (Sadly, he was a good man). AND he set it solid that evolution is a serious contender.

    In a lot of ways the scopes trial was about what the 20th century was about.


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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Love Clarence Darrow. A real bad ass motherfucker.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    I heart Dottie. kiss kiss!

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Ah yes, William Jennings Bryon, of the famous 'Cross of Gold' speech. perhaps the penultimate Southern Democrat, many of whom were renowned for racism as well as religious intolerance.

    An interesting character, not without his merits, but unfortunately at his worst in this case, literally.

    Inherit the Wind was actually written in response to the rabid McCarthy era persecution of leftists, socialists, and commie pinkos, but has been criticized for its apparently biased treatment of Bryan's character.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Cliff notes for the short attention spans:
    • Scopes never took stand and did not even teach any Evolution(Darwinism)
    • Bryan won Case, as Darrow wanted. Case does not go to Supreme Court as hoped
    • Bryan took case to attack Eugenics movement
    • Bryan actually read Darwin, was ardently agaisnt the racism in Darwin and opposed Eugenics
    • In aftermath of case, Eugenics took root in America, leading to THOUSANDS of people being forcibly sterilized


    I say comic book view of history because like comic books, the usual story of the Scopes trial as told is far from reality.

    Did you at least look at the links I posted for the background?

    Bryan wasn't arguing against evolution in a technical sense. That's not even what was taught by Scopes.

    Bryan took the case, not because he was pushing religious fundementalism. He took the case because for the last 4 years prior to the trial, he had been opposing Social Darwinism and the Eugenics movement. To leave this out of the discussion is to be a new-age Pravda. Bryan even wrote a book about this 4 years prior to the Scopes trial, In His Image. . Unlike most people today, Bryan actually read Darwin's Descent of Man and Origin of Species. Bryan goes through some of the technical details of evolution, agrees with the things that we still adhere to today, but rejects the racist implications and even some of teh technical details that modern science rejects today. To paint Bryan as some kind of idiot who didn't understand evolution is just dishonest.

    Perhaps we need to define Eugenics for you. According to Wikipedia, "Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention." In practice here in America, this meant forced sterilization of people deemed unfit to reproduce.

    Some more background on the trial is that it was conceived to be a PR stunt for the town anyway, to drive up tourism. John Scopes also was teaching from a STATE APPROVED textbook.

    AND he managed to CALL THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY to the witness stand. And he defeated him so utterly that five days layer the man croaked (Sadly, he was a good man). AND he set it solid that evolution is a serious contender.
    Bryan didn't mind taking the stand, he loved the spotlight. Bryan also won the trial. So he was not defeated.Even in public opinion, Darrow was also criticized for his side of the questioning. Secondly, Darrow instructed the jury to convict. Darrow wanted Scopes to be found guilty so they could take the case to the Supreme Court. Scopes was convicted BUT the trial itself did not "set that evolution was a serious contender" because the case was overturned, blocking the ACLU's strategy to get to the Supreme Court. ,

    The evolution promoted in the 1920s is not the evolution we know today. The evolution being promoted in the 1920s was mostly promoted by racists and social engineers who wanted to use Darwin's conclusions to promote ideas were usually only associate with the Nazis(who stole some ideas from us).

    In my opinion, to defend Darrow with regards to the Scopes trial to is to defend racism and eugenics. I do not think Bryan was being "ridiculous" because he opposed the forced sterlization of undesirable people. Because that is exactly what ended up happening. Books like give us a great history on Eugenics in America. The thousands of poor whites, blacks, and less-the-perfect people that were harmed by this sentiment.

    One ironic event of the trial is that Darrow said Bryan and company were "opening the doors for a reign of bigotry equal to anything in the Middle Ages." The reality was to be that Darrow himself was doing that.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sh0t View Post
    Cliff notes for the short attention spans:

    Did you at least look at the links I posted for the background?


    Perhaps we need to define Eugenics for you.

    Who is the 'you' up there? Me? Because of what I posted? I don't get it, what's the problem? Differing views of history?
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    lol no. Madcap. answering his reply.

    The cliffnote thing is just in general for anybody who doesnt want to read my long post.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Oh. Eh, I had a lot of wine, it was a good saturday but I don't drink until I get done at 4:15, lol--I'm usually up until about now, and I'm usually spacey. I thought you were replying to me, I couldn't figure it out. I think it's vampire bedtime.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Ok, I read "In His Image" and it seems to me Eugenics was hardly his main motivation. His motivation was preservation of his religion. He objects to it not because of any perceived right of individual liberty, but because tending to the weak and poor is a tenet of Christianity and Darwin's theory " teaches that Christianity impairs the race physically". This was an affront to his religious sensibilities not his humanistic ones.

    He also argues that the theory goes against saving the weak and ill through medicine and vaccinations, since only the survivors should propogate. I don't know if it weakened the race, but Darwin's theory must work on the microbial level, 'cause all the bugs got stronger.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Bryan was in no way a libertarian or anything of the sort. He was also a political statist. The Progressive Era was main source of most of the statism we have to deal with today.

    Bryan had been railing against Darwin and especially Galton's writings for quite sometime leading up to the Scopes trial.

    And it turns out, he was right. Because the very things he feared came true.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Again, the moral implications of a true thing have no bearing on it's truth. It's true or it's false. There is no in-between.

    Plus, when retards used Evolution to insist people were inferior and sometimes murder them, other men and women were willing to die to stop them. That is fact.

    So it balances out. Nowdays, the only people speaking german are germans, because the rest of the world said "no" and kicked their asses in the 40's.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    What 'true thing' are you talking about?

    "Evolution" without qualification includes some correct things and a lot of disproven things, too. In some cases, it has seemed more religious than religion. Especially in the 20s.

    The trial was not about the technical details of evolution. The trial was about the ethics of tax funded schools teaching a belief system(Christianity or Evolution) against the will of those paying the tab. More than a few cases have envoked the first amendment's clause about "establishment of religion" with regards to evolution and other scientific ideas, long since found lacking.

    On that issue, I believe the trial was a joke in general. I don't agree with Christian dogma or pseudo-scientific dogma being taught at my expense.

    Those people who promoted Eugenics were some of the Creme de la Creme of our society at the time. It was the "in" thing. All the cool kids were doing it. Many of those people ready to fight them were nutty Christian types, like Mr. Bryan. In most cases, probably. Christian do have a history of matyrdom.

    What balances out? Eugenic ideas didn't die out with Nazi Germany, not even here in America. The Club of Rome is STILL promoting its malthusian ideas. The overt racism has been dropped post "Civil Rights" era, but we all know who they mean to go first.

    Rest of the world should have maybe looked at twice-as-evil Soviet Russia perhaps. Stalin killed more and for much longer and post Germany's-ass-kicking, eastern Europe found themselves in bigger trouble. America shoulda stayed outof that one. No moral currency to be had fighting alongside Uncle Joe.

    Bryan's challenge to the science of evolution seemed to threaten the continuation of the Nordic aristocracy in America by obstinately denying the theoretical basis of eugenics and proclaiming that all men are made in God's image. The dedicated eugenicists who were called in by the Times in 1922 to refute him were defenders of both Darwin and Galton; they wanted to push Darwinism to its logical conclusion. Over the next two decades, they did. So did Adolph Hitler, beginning eleven years later. When Hitler's experiment in applied Darwinism failed politically, Bryan's critics very quietly took this section of Descent of Man, as well as their own public careers in defense of eugenic sterilization, and dropped them down the Orwellian memory hole, where the data still rest in peace alongside the long-forgotten moral critique by Bryan, who had opposed Darwin on principle on this, the only known practical application of Darwin's thesis.Bryan is still pictured as a scientific buffoon in the history textbooks, and his detractors are still pictured as the fearless defenders of autonomous science. And what of the 30,000 Americans who were forcibly sterilized in the name of Darwinian science? Long dead, long forgotten, and therefore no longer a potential embarrassment.
    For a brief technical bit,we have to remember that at least half of Descent of Man has been disproven, and a good chunk of it was already disproven in Bryan's day. So to call it "truth" is being very liberal with the world. As Bryan himself said:
    "The Bible has in many places been excluded from the schools on the ground that religion should not be taught by those paid by public taxation. If this doctrine is sound, what right have the enemies of religion to teach irreligion in the public schools? If the Bible cannot be taught, why should Christian taxpayers permit the teaching of guesses that make the Bible a lie?"
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Evolution is genetic variation within a given population in response to outside stimuli and that is IT. Any masks retards try to place on it are just masks.

    100% true. I can show it to you in your yard.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Neither I nor the Scopes trial argued about the technical merits of Evolution as scientific fact.

    Additionally, many many theories of evolutionary process have been discredit and discarded, such as transmutationism, orthogenesis, lamarckism, various forms of natural and sexual selection, etc.

    Your definition is a poor one as well because adding in "response to outside stimuli" introduces a big problem that science is still investigating. I would say it is "the change in inheritable genetic traits that occurs generation-to-generation in a population. "

    Your responses seem to be answering things that aren't being posted.
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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    I had the impression you were actually arguing against it.

    As for the "outside stimuli" thing, animals and plants evolve to suit their environments. They evolve when they need to. Sharks, for instance, are perfect sea predators, therefore they haven't needed to change in like 55 million years (though some species have died off, like Carcherodon Megalodon). If they do not need to change, they tend not to, like Sharks or Crocodiles. When their environment keeps fucking with them; they change, like the Dandelions in your yard.

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    Default Re: The Scopes Monkey Trial (The REAL trial of the century, forget OJ)

    Oh, and BTW, the scopes trial didn't argue the evidence FOR evolution because the judge threw it all out two seconds after it left Darrow's vocal cords.

    Darrow--We want to make statements here of what we expect to prove. I do not understand why every request of the state and every suggestion of the prosecution should meet with an endless waste of time, and a bare suggestion of anything that is perfectly competent on our part should be immediately overruled.
    The Court--I hope you do not mean to reflect upon the court?
    Darrow--Well, your honor has the right to hope.
    The Court--I have the right to do something else, perhaps.
    Darrow--All right; all right.

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