Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 44

Thread: taxes = unconstitutional?

  1. #1
    God/dess Corgan's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Southeast Texas
    Posts
    4,735
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
    My Mood
    Brooding

    Default taxes = unconstitutional?

    is this true? is there a way we can detest paying taxes? i don't know where to start looking for information on this.

  2. #2
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    the federal prison in Elkton, Ohio is a pretty good place to start looking ...



    (snip)"CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - A convicted New Hampshire tax evader is now at his new home -- a federal prison in Ohio.

    Stephen Monier, the U.S. Marshal for New Hampshire, says Ed Brown of Plainfield arrived earlier today at the low security Federal Correctional Institution in Elkton, Ohio.

    Monier says Brown had not spent time in any New Hampshire jail since being arrested last week, but had been staying at undisclosed locations under the watch of marshal's deputies en route to prison. Elaine Brown began serving her sentence earlier this week at the Federal Correction Institution in Danbury, Conn., a minimum-security prison for women.

    Officers arrested the Browns last week at their hilltop home in Plainfield. Their monthslong exile began after they abandoned their trial in January. In April they each were sentenced to 63 months in prison but refused to report to authorities."(snip)

    The Browns are the latest in a steady string of arrests of people attempting to make statutory arguments about the constitutionality of the US income tax.

    discusses a whole bunch of such arguments. To date, virtually every statutory argument brought before US courts has been decided in favor of the IRS !
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-03-2007 at 09:29 AM.

  3. #3
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    8,031
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 143 Times in 42 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corgan View Post
    is this true? is there a way we can detest paying taxes? i don't know where to start looking for information on this.
    I think you mean "protest," and if you do a search for that word and taxes you might come up with something.

  4. #4
    God/dess pookie's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,508
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 36 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    I want to protest taxes. Its fucked up. we pay taxes when we work, we are giving part of our time just to give other people money. Then on top of that if we want to spend the money we earned, that we were already taxed on, we pay more fucking taxes just to spend the damn money. Taxes are fucked up.

    We should start a colony that doesnt involve money, we should barter... of course realistically this would still have many down falls... but seriously. FUCKING TAXESI HATE YOU!




  5. #5
    God/dess
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,210
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    The Constitution has in it the power to tax, but it provides a limited scope. TECHNICALLY the labor tax most people pay is unconstitutional, but don't expect the government to tell you that or not attack you.

    There are thousands of people who are not paying taxes on such grounds, but it's a roll of the dice to avoid prison(or worse in some cases).

    Sounds good to me Pookie. My dream is the Republic of San Diego: I'd like for San Diego to secede from the Washington Empire and California. I'm working on it...

    American revolution was in many ways a tax revolt. People think "no taxation without representation" meant an endorsement of taxation if we had parlimentarians, but that is a deadly error. People were ready to chop your head off if you even dreamed of a tax over about 7% GDP back in those days. Nowe we suffer almost anything in silence.

    Bring back King George
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


  6. #6
    DJ Maimed
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    While it can be argued that yes in fact the income tax is "unconstitutional"....they send all the stormtroopers in because of other lil' laws you break in regard to not paying extortion...oooppps I mean taxes . There are a ton of books,websites, etc. on subject....a good one on peoples FAILED attempts is; I would be careful in this arena as your "Big Brother" monitors activities (website tracking,etc.) in these and certain other matters that COULD be classified as "subversive".

  7. #7
    Banned Katrine's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    13,855
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    I don't like to pay taxes either. But I enjoy freedom from jail time and prosecution even more. Tax evasion will FUCK you for years if you get caught.

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  8. #8
    God/dess Corgan's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Southeast Texas
    Posts
    4,735
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
    My Mood
    Brooding

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    i did mean protest. whoops.

  9. #9
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    also, all of those compassionate programs that enjoy popular support i.e. health care for the poor, free food for the 'hungry', people with ARMS not having their mortgage interest rates increased or their homes foreclosed on etc. have to be paid for somehow ! So do roads and sewers and alternative energy . Bend over and smile !

    Technically, prior to the passage of the 13th amendment, the US constitution called for an apportioned tax. This meant that if the federal gov't needed X billion extra dollars to fund a war or whatever, it would send a bill to the individual states based on their populations. Those states would then apportion tax bills to their citizens on a per capita basis. This of course meant that your basic poor dirt farmer had to pay the same number of DOLLARS in apportioned federal taxes as your railroad baron did ! However, the constitutional argument was that the 'services' provided by the federal gov't were of equal value to every citizen therefore every citizen should have to pay the same number of dollars to fund it. Obviously this was VERY unpopular, exactly as the founding fathers intended. As a result, the functions of the federal gov't were confined to those that were originally intended ... defense, foreign trade etc. ... thus embarking on any action that would require that the federal gov't spend a shitload of money (i.e. wars mostly) required a whole lot of public support IN ADVANCE. Also, in the vast majority of years prior to the 13th amendment's passage, federal gov't activities were limited by the amount of revenue they could raise from tariffs on foreign trade and excise taxes - because going to the American people for extra money via the apportioned tax was guaranteed cause for a premature end of many politicians' careers.

    With the passage of the 13th amendment, the idea of every citizen paying the same X dollars in federal taxes was thrown out the window, and replaced with the concept of taxing the rich and not taxing the poor at all. Of course, before the 13th amendment was even ratified, the Very Rich restructured their personal finances via trusts / foundations / dividend payouts etc. to escape having to pay the bulk of actual taxation. This of course left the 'middle class' as the bearers of the majority of federal tax burden ... a situation that persists to this very day !

    Also, the passage of the 13th amendment was the de-facto birthplace of 'career' politicians ... who could now very easily 'buy' votes by proposing some new benefit to poor voters to be paid for by middle class and/or rich voters. Under the pre 13th amendment taxation mechanism there could never have been a social welfare program or health care program because every American would have received an equal dollar federal tax bill to pay for these programs - which would have publicly exposed just how expensive such programs really are, and would have in effect forced social welfare recipients and health care recipients to pay for a good portion of their own benefit cost. But with the 13th amendment it then became possible to 'transfer wealth' from one group of Americans to another group of Americans via the progressive structure of the 'new' income tax, which quickly became the end all and be all for American politics from that point forward by de-facto breaking the 'direct link' between the actual cost of any new program versus the pocket of average citizens / voters.

    As to any thoughts about a modern day tax 'revolt', it's already too late. In a lot of cases American banks / industries / superhighways / power stations are not actually owned by Americans anymore ... meaning that if a 'revolt' were to come along, the foreign owners could just take all of the money, blow up the highways and bridges that they own, shut off the lights, and head for 'home'. So yes we could have a country free of oppressive taxes again ... but it would probably resemble Zimbabwe once the foreign interests leave and take their goodies with them. At the same time there would be a counter-revolt by all of those welfare recipients / Social Security recipients / gov't employees / gov't contractors whose regular checks would stop coming almost instantly. And in the absence of a revolt, since people receiving regular checks from the gov't now number more than 50% of the population in some areas, any attempt to reduce taxes at the voting booth is pretty much doomed to faiilure as well. As 'middle class' residents of New Jersey and Wisconsin are making abundantly clear in recent months, the only option still open is 'voting with your feet' i.e. relocating to a different state whose spending policies, and thus state / local tax rates, reflect a different philosophy.

    However, this doesn't help a bit where federal income taxes are concerned ! Nor does leaving the USA, UNLESS you are able to obtain a passport from a different country and are comfortable never returning to the USA. The reason for this is that federal tax laws have been passed which attempt to tax the offshore earnings of Americans as well as domestic earnings ... so even if you move to Zimbabwe if you want to keep your US passport you are required to continue paying US federal income taxes ! As country to country financial reporting gets tighter and tighter as a result of the Terrorist anti-money laundering treaty, this is becoming an increasingly difficult issue - say for American dancers working in Canadian or Australian or British clubs.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-03-2007 at 12:47 PM.

  10. #10
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Some things that might be of interest:







    If you notice here, you will see that the income tax amendment hasn't been ratified by all 50 states:

    The constitution does not allow taxation of income however.
    Then again, it also didn't include the abolition of slavery or the woman's right to vote. In this case I think that if more people stopped paying taxes there would be no way to enforce it, and we could stop working to give our money to the fat cat bankers approximately 4 months out of the year.
    The money I earn belongs to ME.

    The taxes we pay on purchases (*cough*homeowners*cough*) should be plenty to fix the potholes and give people all the governmental support they need. (Unless I missed something) Melonie fails to mention that much of this money goes to setting up military bases and taking over other nations.

  11. #11
    Jay Zeno
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Amendment 16.

    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    This amendment was specifically rejected by New Hampshire on Mar 2, 1911. It was also rejected by Arkansas prior to its subsequent ratification, and by Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Utah.

    (from usconstitution.net)

    Amendments do not have to be unanimously ratified to be binding. Ratification by three fourths of the states is needed.

  12. #12
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    With the constitutional aspect addressed, is there a law that says we have to pay taxes?

  13. #13
    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Home
    Posts
    13,598
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 28 Times in 23 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    For those of you who hate paying taxes and don't want to anymore...

    I encourage you to find a country in which you get the luxuries you have here that doesn't charge taxes.


  14. #14
    God/dess ahmeerah's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Center of the World.
    Posts
    3,128
    Thanks
    66
    Thanked 82 Times in 51 Posts
    My Mood
    Breezy

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    I hate paying taxes but, I feel like if I didn't pay them it'd be like getting a free ride on the U.S.

  15. #15
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Like anything, there comes a point when too much is not good.

    Taxes falls into that category too.

  16. #16
    God/dess Lysondra's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Another Country
    Posts
    18,664
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 148 Times in 100 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess View Post
    For those of you who hate paying taxes and don't want to anymore...

    I encourage you to find a country in which you get the luxuries you have here that doesn't charge taxes.

    Agreed. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Goddamn I like my roads, my free schooling, the new bridges, the free health care (here)...


    Look like a woman
    Think like a man
    Act like a lady
    Work like a dog

    - My Great Grandmother Bessie's Recipe for Success

  17. #17
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    I would like to live in a more socialist society and I think that is possible without paying income tax - we pay a lot of taxes in other ways too. I'd like to know where my tax money is going - does someone have a pie chart or something?
    Tax the fuck out of alcohol and cigarettes though.

  18. #18
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexxaHex View Post
    I would like to live in a more socialist society and I think that is possible without paying income tax - we pay a lot of taxes in other ways too. I'd like to know where my tax money is going - does someone have a pie chart or something?
    Tax the fuck out of alcohol and cigarettes though.
    Since we are talking about taxing "sin"...

    Somewhere you can order a CDROM of the budget. Perhaps Melonie knows where. I am too tired to look it up.

    Then you can really go nuts reading that....

  19. #19
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Since we are talking about taxing "sin"...

    Somewhere you can order a CDROM of the budget. Perhaps Melonie knows where. I am too tired to look it up.

    Then you can really go nuts reading that....
    Not so much taxing "sin" but stupidity.

    I will take a look for the CD Rom. It should hopefully be available for free.

  20. #20
    Jay Zeno
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Generally, the more socialist a country is, the higher the taxes are, because the government takes care of more of the needs. Services don't get created out of nothing. They get paid for somehow. You're either going to pay it to the market or to the government.

  21. #21
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Okay here's a general overview of the budget for 2006 in pdf format.



    Since Katrine deleted her post I will pretend it never existed.

    As far as having socialized services for the public, (and I am mostly talking about education and health care) it is very possible for all of us to be healthy and educated if we don't spend $35 billion on setting up military bases and combat brigades (essentially war and destruction under the guise of colonizing or stabilizing 'third world' countries).

  22. #22
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    ^^^ we're already spending more than 10 times that amount on medicaid alone !!! Keep in mind that in the USA a deliberate structure has been created to break up program costs between the federal govt + the individual state gov'ts + the individual local gov'ts ... arguably so that it's extremely difficult to determine how much money is actually being spent in total on education and social welfare programs. This is not the case for military spending, which is 100% federal.

    When looking at the US federal budget you are not looking at total tax dollars being collected and spent on social programs - far from it. In the case of federal medicaid spending you're typically looking at less than 1/3rd of total medicaid spending by federal + state + local gov'ts, depending on benefit levels individual states choose to provide.

    Your statement also includes an inherent assumption that more spending will lead to better results. This has arguably been proven false by actual per student spending stats on education (in my state of NY total education spending adds up to more than $11k per student per year - Washington DC holds the record at $14k per student per year) versus high school graduation rates and/or the ability of graduates to actually 'perform' necessary job functions satisfactorily. According to stats, the highest graduation rates and the highest job 'performance' actually occur for students who were 'home schooled' or who attended 'charter schools' versus public schools, despite the fact that the public school system spent FAR more money per student to provide an inferior education.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-04-2007 at 10:31 AM.

  23. #23
    Banned Katrine's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    13,855
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexxaHex View Post

    Since Katrine deleted her post I will pretend it never existed.
    I want to apologize for that. It was rude and insensitive.

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  24. #24
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    I want to apologize for that. It was rude and insensitive.
    No problem. I still love ya.

  25. #25
    AlexxaHex
    Guest

    Default Re: taxes = unconstitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ we're already spending more than 10 times that amount on medicaid alone !!! Keep in mind that in the USA a deliberate structure has been created to break up program costs between the federal govt + the individual state gov'ts + the individual local gov'ts ... arguably so that it's extremely difficult to determine how much money is actually being spent in total on education and social welfare programs. This is not the case for military spending, which is 100% federal.

    When looking at the US federal budget you are not looking at total tax dollars being collected and spent on social programs - far from it. In the case of federal medicaid spending you're typically looking at less than 1/3rd of total medicaid spending by federal + state + local gov'ts, depending on benefit levels individual states choose to provide.

    Your statement also includes an inherent assumption that more spending will lead to better results. This has arguably been proven false by actual per student spending stats on education (in my state of NY total education spending adds up to more than $11k per student per year - Washington DC holds the record at $14k per student per year) versus high school graduation rates and/or the ability of graduates to actually 'perform' necessary job functions satisfactorily. According to stats, the highest graduation rates and the highest job 'performance' actually occur for students who were 'home schooled' or who attended 'charter schools' versus public schools, despite the fact that the public school system spent FAR more money per student to provide an inferior education.

    ~
    This actually makes good sense. I would in no way logically confirm that a public education is even remotely satisfactory, but many improvements could be made, especially concerning faculty. It's pretty common knowledge that teachers don't get paid enough to care, pharmaceutical companies get richer (in tandem with supporting politicians) and people are getting sicker and are paying out the ass just to survive if they are lucky. Where does the money go? Can we find new sources or more efficient ways to allocate the funds? I don't even think the budget within the link I provided is even the real truth anymore.

    Honestly this whole discussion could go really deep and I personally am not totally equipped to go there.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-01-2008, 01:07 PM
  2. Texas' $5 pole tax unconstitutional
    By Blackstone in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-22-2008, 05:25 PM
  3. Taxes
    By wkaatje in forum Newbie Board
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-16-2006, 09:11 PM
  4. Missouri Law Banning Lap Dances declared Unconstitutional
    By goo321 in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-28-2005, 06:48 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •