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Thread: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

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    Senior Member kat 3322's Avatar
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    Default normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    i know part of this concept has been mentioned in a few threads. something along the lines of...

    since stripping/sex work/porn has become so mainstream people no longer feel that they need to pay for it/pay us for erotic dancing.

    i agree with this whole heartedly but think maybe it goes a little farther then that...

    all types of sex work share a common thread, there work,

    sex in exchange for money.as in someone gets paid. so i dont think the normalization is happening on this level, no one wants to pay us.

    maybe what is happening is that the ways in which women behave in porn is becoming normalized and fetishised. (porn is much more widely available and affordable then live entertainment, to people of all ages)

    most mainstream porn (emphasis on mainstream) shows women gaging on penises, being called sluts, and depicted as being very young and naive. in a lot of porn it even looks like the women are in genuine pain. humiliation porn, and degradation are common place.

    i think the perception this is normal is the one im picking up much more at work. iv'e only been dancing for 3-4 years but have friends who have been dancing for upwards of 10. to us it just seems that the men who come in are unwilling to engage in fun sexy play for money. the customers do seem much more willing to expect sex for small amounts of money and scoff at us when we suggest/sell activities in the club that involve the dancer getting paid for non-sex.

    getting paid for sexual entertainment is not what is becoming normalized, seeing women being treated like submissive sex toys is what im seeing more men coming to expect. men are more insulting, and disrespectful. the younger generations that have been part of this culture there whole lives are much ruder to me then men who grew up in a time when it was more manly to treat a women well then poorly.


    just had to get that out of my system.

    (please no attacks for generalizing men or hating porn, i love the good variates of both)

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    Featured Member paintgoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    I think it has desensitized our customer base if anything. Thanks to the internet, for better or for worse, porn has permeated our culture. The younger guys that come in have grown up with porn at their fingertips... and they're the up-and-coming customer base for our business. Kind of scary...yet the change was inevitable.

    On a positive note, I wanted to quote someone from another thread that I just went back and hunted for. I think her comment was a positive breath of fresh air. We're interactive versions of what the guys can find in a magazine or at home. Here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Asurfael View Post
    I prefer the term "adult entertainment" to "sex industry." That's what I feel like I'm providing, giving titillation but not gratification. So I think I'm more an interactive equivalent to a porn movie than a prostitute. It's all in how you look at it though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysondra View Post
    Strippers are like ninjas. You never know how many there are or if the person next to you is one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    ...I assume you probably don't want to deal with pervs, and the guys that just don't give a fuck about money are like unicorns...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinder View Post
    I know I have said it before, and I'll say it again.... THE VAGINA IS NOT A CLOWN CAR!


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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    the customers do seem much more willing to expect sex for small amounts of money and scoff at us when we suggest/sell activities in the club that involve the dancer getting paid for non-sex.
    I don't think porn is to blame for this phenomena; this is more of a chicken-and-the-egg scenario. Customers expect more for less because there are dancers that will do more for less...how did that come to be? And which was first? Dancers providing more for less, or customer expectations to that end?
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    there's a sideline point worth mentioning ... that 'live' porn participation (of a sort at least) is now a very real possibility. Besides a guaranteed personal 'encounter' with the 'big name' porn star of customer's choice ...



    ... there are an equal number of smaller name lower dollar guaranteed personal 'encounter' possibilities available through escort agencies in any big city these days. For example, one of the more popular smaller name lower dollar porn stars in the NYC area is , whose rates are about 1/2 the price of the big name porn stars.

    This basically translates into a number of guys who in the past might have spent a total of $1800 on a favorite dancer in a nearby club over a period of a few weeks in hopes of getting close enough to her to lay the groundwork for an 'encounter' now figuring out that they can easily arrange a guaranteed 'encounter' with a real live big name porn star for the same amount of money invested, or TWO guaranteed 'encounters' with a smaller name porn star, with no guesswork involved !

    Ever since 'stripping' mutated from being show business into being sex business (which I peg to somewhere around 1999 with business expense tax deductions for strip clubs disallowed by the IRS, with internet XXX and escort services taking off big time, and with full contact lap dances becoming the norm in most cities), dancers have been pursuing a shrinking market of customers who are content with low contact entertainment / conversation etc. For customers who aren't content with low contact entertainment, dancers now find themselves indirectly competing with 'sure thing' providers. At first this was OTC, but with increasing clubowner complicity it keeps moving ITC as well.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-10-2007 at 03:52 PM.

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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    I've got to agree with the OP.

    I first saw dancers at the age of 18 (which is a mere 32 years ago now) and it was a very different style of dance. Firstly, the nudity only came towards the end of the dance, and secondly it was far less explicit - full frontal, but legs together.

    (I can still remember an audible gasp from the audience the first time I saw a dancer open her legs, and that was just for a matter of seconds at the end of her spot).

    If I look at porn back in those times, it was primaily magazines. Then VCR's came along (early 80's?) and you could get porn videos. However, you still had to go and get them, either from a specialist shop, or by mail.

    Then came the internet, and as download speeds increased it was cheap and simple to download porn to your PC. No need to move from your seat.

    I'd draw a direct correlation between the increasing availability of porn and the increasing explicitness/degree of contact in stripping.

    When nudity had a shock value, people watched dancers for the nudity alone. As the availability of porn increased, the eroticism of nudity decreased and customers turned to ever higher mileage/explicitness to get the shock value.

    Phil.

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Things change. Societies, people, expectations are rarely static for long. Human nature predictable. If people like something, they need/want more of it as time goes on. If they are use to paying a certain amount, they will push to spend less over time. And it works. It works because sellers compete with each other, to increase their own edge, do more for less. Porn is related, but part of it is also the dancers themselves are contributing to expecting more for less. The other related factor is as time goes on, if porn and stripping become less stigmatized, more sex workers are likely to enter the market, increasing competition for all. But that happens in any business really. If it is profitable, if it is relatively easy to enter, and if there is no stigma, competition leads to sellers offering more for less, and likewise customers expecting more for less.

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    smartcookie
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    I'm much more concerned with the deleterious effect porn has had on men's sexual skill/performance level, but maybe that's because I don't make my living as a stripper anymore.

    I corresponded with one of the founders of Feminists for Free Expression a while back, and even she admitted that the statement they put out on pornography four or five years ago was no longer accurate, given the misogyny and violence that permeates most pornography these days.

    I wonder why is it that now, when we are almost in the year 2008, men's sexual gratification is centered so much on the denigration of women.

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie View Post
    I wonder why is it that now, when we are almost in the year 2008, men's sexual gratification is centered so much on the denigration of women.
    Despite all of the short-term social trends, I've never had trouble finding a man who knows how to strike that balance. This isn't true in paid sex, but still readily available in the realworld............

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    I'd expect guys expecting more and more and girls offering more and more are what's really ruining your line of work.

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    Featured Member mina loy's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie View Post

    I corresponded with one of the founders of Feminists for Free Expression a while back, and even she admitted that the statement they put out on pornography four or five years ago was no longer accurate, given the misogyny and violence that permeates most pornography these days.

    I wonder why is it that now, when we are almost in the year 2008, men's sexual gratification is centered so much on the denigration of women.
    why is that? i hate most porn that i see for this very fact. i don't see the eroticism in misogyny.
    [sigpic][/sigpic]
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    madmaxine
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie View Post
    I wonder why is it that now, when we are almost in the year 2008, men's sexual gratification is centered so much on the denigration of women.
    It's a backlash against Actualized Female Empowerment, plus an extension of "Extreme" culture- if people will eat worms on "Fear Factor".... someone wants to film A2M or God Knows What & see if it catches on.

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    Veteran Member Smoothcat's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    With the breakdown of the family, fewer boys/young men have a good Dad to show them the right way. Without that example, women become objects or targets, instead of friends or partners. I was raised many years before video games, which are another cause. We have become the stimulus culture, instead of the us culture.

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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    there's a sideline point worth mentioning ... that 'live' porn participation (of a sort at least) is now a very real possibility. Besides a guaranteed personal 'encounter' with the 'big name' porn star of customer's choice ...

    http://www.bodymiracle.com/seemore/indexrates2007.html

    ~
    dude!! You can fuck Nina Hartley for 1800 bucks Not that I would want to, but I am shocked!
    Sexy Jasmine after getting fucked over at work:

    God loves strippers and when guys do things like that its an automatic ticket to HELL!


    Quote Originally Posted by anomar View Post
    Perhaps you stopped spending money on her. Strippers need money to operate. They are like coin operated juke-boxes of love.

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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Body Miracle was actually part of a larger escort company that did get busted a few years back out of NY. But it's been around forever and most porn stars do travel with them. I know Belladonna was on their site 5 or 6 years ago.

    Anyways, between MTV and nothing being "taboo" anymore it has fucked our money. I was remarking this the other day to a friend who had been in this industry 15 years. She still makes her money, but like she said....instead of pervy or the tycoon party men it's more all about cheap thrills. On both ends. The talent poole has decreased as much as the customer base.

    I truly do dislike the fact it's socially acceptable and considered more a night club atmosphere rather than what it actually is.
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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W View Post
    I first saw dancers at the age of 18 (which is a mere 32 years ago now) and it was a very different style of dance. Firstly, the nudity only came towards the end of the dance, and secondly it was far less explicit - full frontal, but legs together.
    Hahaha! I remember when I first started dancing (1998 ), an old school dancer at my club got in my face for getting nude too fast, and that full spread was "gross and degrading" for $1.

    Yep, I was an old school "extras" girl. Time marches on and things change. Some people can deal, others not so much.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    TheSexKitten
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Whereas Playboy used to be the porn of choice, now everyone has any kind of crazy XXX gangbang anal midget titfuck golden showers porn they desire... for free.

    Hot naked girls are more boring now unless they're doing something.

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    Featured Member Sophia_Ashley's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSexKitten View Post
    now everyone has any kind of crazy XXX gangbang anal midget titfuck golden showers porn they desire... for free.
    You forgot the poo and vomit. That seems to be essential these days.
    as damp as a cellar. . . all mildewy I'm as damp as a cellar. . . all mildewy

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    God/dess VegasPrincess's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Hahaha! I remember when I first started dancing (1998 ), an old school dancer at my club got in my face for getting nude too fast, and that full spread was "gross and degrading" for $1.

    Yep, I was an old school "extras" girl. Time marches on and things change. Some people can deal, others not so much.
    I started around the same time you did (2000) and you're right, I really have seen a change.

    When I started I didn't even know how to hustle ... I mean I wouldn't ask for dances... I would just sit and talked til somebody asked me for a dance... and I couldn't do champagne rooms because I wasn't old enough....and I still made about 2-300 dollars a night.

    Things have changed. More girls are dancing, esp the new "baby strippers" because to them, stripping isn't bad like when I started at age 18. Everyone was horrified. Now it's so common.
    Sexy Jasmine after getting fucked over at work:

    God loves strippers and when guys do things like that its an automatic ticket to HELL!


    Quote Originally Posted by anomar View Post
    Perhaps you stopped spending money on her. Strippers need money to operate. They are like coin operated juke-boxes of love.

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    Veteran Member Alia_of_the_Knife's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Ashley View Post
    I truly do dislike the fact it's socially acceptable and considered more a night club atmosphere rather than what it actually is.
    Very true. It has the feel of a nightclub or when the youngsters come in an actual "house party" feel to it. I grew up at a time in which it's normal for any 11, 12, or 13 year old boy to be able to "bump and grind" with any girl at a middle school dance. (And this was in upper-middle class suburbia). There is little novelty to a strip club to my generation.

    Even with that being said, I do agree with Madcap and Casual that a lot of it are the dancers fault more than anything. And it's not even just the greater physicality of the job. I see plenty of the strippers flirt and talk to guys as if they were just some regular guy they met at school or a bar. They don't distance themselves with that ethereal line of demarcation that used to exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by vbmenu_register("postmenu_1597376", true); View Post
    Uh, unless she went at that bush with a jar of shoe polish, she doesn't look much like a natural blonde to me!
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    I agree!! ^ And before anyone chimes in and blames it on the "baby strippers" I see a TON of vets doing it too and typically for drinks. Which kinda makes it all the more sad. The justification of talking some group of non dance buying douche bags all night is for a few drinks, and then bitching about it all evening long to anyone that will listen. Those girls slay me.

    And the clubs themselves don't help much either. For example the place I just was booted from began giving us pep talks about being more customer appreciative. Even to the NON paying ones. Also, bottle services were introduced and while this is grand for the bar, it sucks for us because those guys just sit in their group all night getting shit faced with their chick friends who LOVE to dance and we are ignored. At least till one strays from the herd of tards.

    It's kinda like when they went and made time square and las vegas family friendly. No people! We like seedy. Give us back the underbelly of society
    as damp as a cellar. . . all mildewy I'm as damp as a cellar. . . all mildewy

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    Banned i.breathe.in's Avatar
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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    with all this being said, i wonder if its more lucrative and less bullshit to work for a private party company these days. though i dont know do those exist without extras?

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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    ^^^

    That's a really good question!! I don't know if they exist either... does anyone??
    Sexy Jasmine after getting fucked over at work:

    God loves strippers and when guys do things like that its an automatic ticket to HELL!


    Quote Originally Posted by anomar View Post
    Perhaps you stopped spending money on her. Strippers need money to operate. They are like coin operated juke-boxes of love.

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    Default Re: normalization of porn/porn culture ruining our business... rant.

    There's one here in Chicago!!! Fuck I forget how I found it the other day. I'll look again and post the link here. I think I found it on a forum
    as damp as a cellar. . . all mildewy I'm as damp as a cellar. . . all mildewy

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