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Thread: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

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    God/dess twisterinAZ's Avatar
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    Default Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    I was watching George Clooney's HBO special on Darfur. Has anyone seen it ?
    I wonder if anything will ever be done to help these poor defenseless people ???

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    No one wants to acknowledge horrors like that, and would rather keep sipping their frappucinos and swinging their Chanel bags, thinking maybe if they do that enough, it will just go away. And for them, it does.

    I don't know if there is anything we can do. I honestly don't.

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    God/dess twisterinAZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Well, we can write to our congressmen and demand involvement, but it seems that our government doesn't really see it as a priority. We can't help them because they don't have anyhting we wan't. It just sickens me.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    ^^^ exactly. we only wave the "sovererign nation" flag at times when it's sickeningly convenient (i.e. when other countries lack things of u.s. economic interest) to do so. ugh.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by twisterinAZ View Post
    Well, we can write to our congressmen and demand involvement, but it seems that our government doesn't really see it as a priority. We can't help them because they don't have anyhting we wan't. It just sickens me.
    You nailed it. It would not economically benefit us to get involved.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Wouldn't change things if it did.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Well, we can write to our congressmen and demand involvement, but it seems that our government doesn't really see it as a priority.
    What exactly should the US do? How long should we do it? How many Americans should be killed in support of a policy with dubious national interests? Most importantly, how many other Darfurs should we be saving? Should we be in the Congo? What about Columbia? What about Eritrea? How about East Timor? What about Tibet? And who is going to do it? And why would we do it?

    I find it the height of hypocrisy that so many in this country that are opposed to the Iraq campaign (another foreign policy blunder that doesn't serve our national interests) are willing to engage in similarly pointless endeavors if the pictures on their TV screens and computer monitors are compelling enough. Either it's in our national interest to commit blood and treasure or it isn't.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by twisterinAZ View Post
    I was watching George Clooney's HBO special on Darfur. Has anyone seen it ?
    I wonder if anything will ever be done to help these poor defenseless people ???
    How about the poor defenseless people in the United States who get 5500.00 unexplained hospital bills?

    Don't get me wrong. I really really believe that the United States can do a lot of Global Good, but we have a lot of problems to fix HERE. And until George Clooney does an HBO special on things in the U.S. like Credit issues, voting, and health insurance (hopefully ignoring the huge buyouts from the corporate entities protecting their exploitation and control over human lives), more Americans will donate to sponser a child in Africa without EVER EVEN KNOWING that if they have a heart attack, they wont be able to pay for treatment.

    Just my opinion. I agree with CO. These global awareness pushes are marketing distractions away from out major problems here. We should help. WE SHOULD. But where does it stop? Who can say, with the state of our nation as it is, that we're in any position to give help at all? Our administration all but force feeds our help out to divert attentions away from our own hemorrhaging.

    wasn't trying to be nasty
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    What exactly should the US do? How long should we do it? How many Americans should be killed in support of a policy with dubious national interests? Most importantly, how many other Darfurs should we be saving? Should we be in the Congo? What about Columbia? What about Eritrea? How about East Timor? What about Tibet? And who is going to do it? And why would we do it?

    I find it the height of hypocrisy that so many in this country that are opposed to the Iraq campaign (another foreign policy blunder that doesn't serve our national interests) are willing to engage in similarly pointless endeavors if the pictures on their TV screens and computer monitors are compelling enough. Either it's in our national interest to commit blood and treasure or it isn't.
    Thank you.

    I recently had this argument with an unthinking person. Luckily, once I explained that it would be much like Iraq, they backed off and agreed.

    The best we can do is choose a side, give them weapons, and say "remember who helped you" when it is all said and done.

    In short, Africa is a mess, always was a mess, and always will be a mess.

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    stellaforstars
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Ugh. Reading this thread has made me upset.

    I'll agree with Colette and leave it at that.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Either it's in our national interest to commit blood and treasure or it isn't.
    there's also the inconvenient little issue of a total lack of justification in terms of threat to the safety of US citizens / national security. As strained as the islamic terrorist connection to Iraq and Afghanistan may or may not have been, at least it was impossible to deny that American lives were lost during 9/11, during the USS Cole incident, during the Beirut barracks bombing and dozens of other smaller incidents over the previous 29 years since the Jimmy Carter Iranian hostage situation. There is no such direct connection that can be drawn, no matter how strained, to Darfur.

    However, that fact doesn't totally preclude future US military action, any more than the lack of a direct connection prevented Bill Clinton from sending US troops into the Bosnia / Serbia conflict under UN auspices. But as many have pointed out, foreign military 'adventures' are always expensive both in terms of American blood and American money - and the average American's viewpoint has changed a great deal from the last time America undertook a foreign military 'adventure' to Bosnia in the tech-boom funded 90's.

    Ultimately, if the world rally wants / needs a 'policeman' ... probably under the auspices of the UN ... then ALL of the UN countries should fund the associated military 'adventure'. However, for the most part, this never happens and America / UK / Commonwealth countries are the only ones willing to actually pony up blood and treasure. In the meantime, with the exception of a 'token' presence, Brazil / Japan / France / Germany / Russia / China / India sit on the sidelines and collect interest payments on the money that America / UK / Commonwealth countries must borrow from them in order to fund said military 'adventure'.

    The days of 'empire' are now totally over for reasons of cost and because of your average person's lack of a stomach for 'blood'. Thus the traditional racist / religious / tribal / despotic conflicts which have been with us for essentially all of recorded history, but which were subdued during the 'colonial' periods of the last couple of centuries, may now recommence in earnest ! This is something that the French (and later Americans) figured out in regard to French Indochina = Vietnam. The Dutch also figured this out in regard to it's former colonials the South Mollucans versus the Indonesian government that succeded the Dutch East Indies 'colonial' period as the gov't in control of the South Mollucan Islands. The Darfur situation isn't really any different if you stop and think about it ... and will eventually end in the same way that the Vietnam situation ended and the South Mollucan situation ended, with a local 'victor' and the total suppression of the 'loser'.



    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-05-2008 at 12:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    It makes me sad as well, however, I agree with CO.
    I believe you Dottie and you have my support

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by stellaforstars View Post
    Ugh. Reading this thread has made me upset.

    I'll agree with Colette and leave it at that.
    me too, Stella. me too.nuff' said

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    Veteran Member StuartL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    I didn't see the TV show I'm afraid.

    I have a close friend who was formerly VERY, VERY high up in the UN and he has been involved in negotiations off and on for about 5 months. You just meet people like this in Brussels.

    It is quite an amazing conflict and there appear to be many very real issues. One is that Darfur is pretty large and very remote. Sudan is roughly the size of western europe - Portugal, France and Spain combined and Darfur is approx the size of Portugal.

    If you have ever been too Portugal, it often seems deserted because the 10 million or so population are mainly in the cities. The countryside is largely empty. Darfur has less than half the population and they are scattered around in small settlements. Trying to protect these people is incredibly difficult - given that there are very few roads, no rail and no airports.

    Another is that the 'conflict' - if you can call it that - is mainly about water or the lack of it. By killing a village, there is less competition for resources and so more to go around. Unfortunately it is a simple zero sum game. Less of you means more for me. Very sad.

    According to my friend, the only group who 'get it' are the Chinese. Rather than trying to protect, they are trying to build infrastructure to get water and other resources into the region more effectively. It is hoped that this will ease the pressure on the differing groups and thus give them less incentive to kill. That is the hope at least.

    Whether it will work, who knows? It will however give China a very real foothold in Sudan and better potential access and negotiating rights over future oil supplies - which is why they are getting involved.

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    God/dess twisterinAZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    I'm not suggesting that only the United States should step in. I'm just saying that as human beings and citizens of this planet, when do we decide to stop genocide ? I agree that the U.S. has it's own problems and it isn't our sole responsibility to take care of everyone, but these people need help. Systematic rape , torture and execution must be stopped. I feel personally helpless but what, if any solution is there?

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by StuartL View Post
    According to my friend, the only group who 'get it' are the Chinese. Rather than trying to protect, they are trying to build infrastructure to get water and other resources into the region more effectively. It is hoped that this will ease the pressure on the differing groups and thus give them less incentive to kill. That is the hope at least.

    Whether it will work, who knows? It will however give China a very real foothold in Sudan and better potential access and negotiating rights over future oil supplies - which is why they are getting involved.
    If all this is true, that would be an extremely wise move for China.

    A foreign policy that reduces suffering through peaceful methods is bound to superior to one that uses war to 'defend the freedom' of only certain areas that the oil business has a vested interest in. God knows no innocent people have died in Iraq since we made it safe for democracy, right? I mean that was one of the main reasons we invaded the country, other than the dubious connection Iraq had with 911.

    Mind you, I am not a fan of China, but I have to agree that the 'liberation of Iraq' is a tragic farce.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    i have to say i agree with mast, bigtime. reading the first few posts in this thread, i was like aw, man, i'm gonna get flamed if i post. but we have (and this sounds so bad but i don't know how else to say it) bigger problems. yeah, it would be nice to help. but at what cost? we kind of need to get our own shit figured out before we can even begin to help others.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Well, let's hope there won't be any flaming. I know I have said more than once I would love to sit and drink with CO, no matter how much we sometimes disagreed in the old PP.

    We could holler at each other in between rounds. Maybe not, maybe we'd just laugh it off. After all, neither of us killed anyone or deprived them of their rights.
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  19. #19
    TheSexKitten
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    I just have to point out that fretting over $5,500 in hospital bills is a much lighter bag of bricks than having your entire community dessimated by violence.

    Whether or not we should "step in" is a much more complicated issue, and that we should do a lot of healthcare reform but relatively? WE DO NOT HAVE PROBLEMS.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSexKitten View Post
    I just have to point out that fretting over $5,500 in hospital bills is a much lighter bag of bricks than having your entire community dessimated by violence.

    Whether or not we should "step in" is a much more complicated issue, and that we should do a lot of healthcare reform but relatively? WE DO NOT HAVE PROBLEMS.
    but put it into perspective. maybe not you and i, but what about a child living in the ghetto who watches their mother be beaten, raped, whatever, and they themselves are beaten, etc. or they have a very loving family (not likely though. violence is much higher in poverty) but they can't eat at night or they don't have a place to sleep. that family, and most likely that community, in america, is more important to me than a child on another continent. that sounds selfish, i know, but how can we begin to help fix the problems of another country when our own country is in the state that it is in? (in terms of EVERYTHING.. finances, healthcare, murders, war, homelessness, everything you can imagine)

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    I'm just saying that as human beings and citizens of this planet, when do we decide to stop genocide ? I agree that the U.S. has it's own problems and it isn't our sole responsibility to take care of everyone, but these people need help. Systematic rape , torture and execution must be stopped.
    I wonder if you share the same opinion about America's stopping systematic genocide / rape / torture / executions in Iraq ?

    America was asked to do exactly this for the first time in regard to 1919 Armenia by what would later become the League of Nations ... and then as in Darfur we declined because we did not see ourselves as a 'colonial' power. The only real way that these regional conflicts can be halted (other than trying to convince local despots / religious zealots / tribes / racists to lay down their arms voluntarily - which hasn't been successful over the course of hundreds / thousands of years) is for some greater power to occupy the region and supress both sides via the presence / use of superior military force. However, this costs blood and money. Thus in order for the 'colonial' power to sustain it's presence, the 'colonial' occupation must produce some sort of new wealth. Obviously, these days, oil is the source of that new wealth - but Darfur has precious little.

    China is throwing a few billion yen at the problem ... which they can easily afford out of their US trade surplus. But China isn't actually intervening in any immediately useful way. Like a chess game, China is attempting (successfully) to buy themselves a 'presence' in Africa somewhat near the oil rich middle east, which they later hope to trade on in terms of oil and other raw materials. But it remains to be seen whether this will actually accomplish anything useful in terms of relieving the plight of Darfur.

    if China should be crazy enough to decide to take a 'colonial' posture complete with a Chinese Army presence in Africa, then yes the Darfur situation would be immediately chilled. However, such an act by China, or for that matter by Russia or by America or anybody else except the former 'colonial' power (the UK who can't afford it anyhow), would be an extremely destabilizing influence from a global power perspective.


    that family, and most likely that community, in america, is more important to me than a child on another continent. that sounds selfish, i know, but how can we begin to help fix the problems of another country when our own country is in the state that it is in? (in terms of EVERYTHING.. finances, healthcare, murders, war, homelessness, everything you can imagine)
    and herein lies the true bottom line ... that no matter how much financial 'help' that America or other countries might provide to Darfur or other third world countries, between their high birth rate, their lack of productivity, their lack of stability, their idea of gov't / leadership etc. any strictly peaceful 'investment' will ultimately come to nothing. I take no pleasure in saying this, but it is the absolute cold hard truth - and you don't need to look beyond Zimbabwe for proof.

    Also it is very arguable that America can no longer afford to even provide the gov't defined 'minimum acceptable standard of living' to all of her own residents i.e. social welfare programs, medicaid, police protection, education etc. The time is drawing near when Americans are going to have to face up to the fact that the American 'poor' have a standard of living that is far, far above anything that is practically achievable on a worldwide basis, and that the 'minimum acceptable standard of living' in America is going to drop long before the world standard of living rises.

    I'll even throw down a new gauntlet here ... that America is now the single biggest cause of third world hunger. The reason ... our decision to redirect 1/3rd of our total agricultural land to the production of biofuel i.e. ethanol rather than to foods. This has in turn caused worldwide prices for corn / wheat / you name it to skyrocket by factors of 4:1 to date versus a couple of years ago, and as consequently made it 4 times more difficult for third world people to obtain enough food ! The Europeans of course are also contributing to this trend, and specifically so in Africa by the conversion of African plantation crops from food to biofuel feedstock destined for European refineries.

    This isn't conjecture - the UN is starting to issue heavy warnings about it like followed by . This of course leads to a double edged questions ... are you willing to help feed the starving people of Darfur / Africa / 3rd world countries in general by abandoning American / European biofuel policies ? The world is a very complicated place !

    !
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-05-2008 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I wonder if you share the same opinion about America's stopping systematic genocide / rape / torture / executions in Iraq ?
    Much as Saddam was a butcher, I think many, many more innocent lives have been lost since we 'saved' Iraq. But the real point here in this thread is how bad things are in Darfur, and what can be done about it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    China is throwing a few billion yen at the problem ... which they can easily afford out of their US trade surplus. But China isn't actually intervening in any immediately useful way.
    I don't know much about it, I confess. But China isn't getting any more water to those areas that desperately need it? I would think from what I have heard that this would be the best thing that could be done.

    Again, not that I really think China is a wonderful country, or is in it just to be really nice to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The world is a very complicated place!
    Now that, we can all agree on...
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    God/dess twisterinAZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Why do people keep referring to my med bill post ? Two seperate thoughts people. I'm hardly comparing the two. Why would anyone else ?

    I'd gladly pay the bill and more if it would stop the madness over there for the record.

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    God/dess twisterinAZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    And I would also point out that my being unable to pay a bill is hardly the same as systematic destruction of an entire race of people. Sure we have healthcare issues and "voting" and credit issues " It's hardly the same as teenagers and children being violently,systematically raped . Or having our drinking water polluted with the bodies of our children !! It amazes me the way that some of you think.

  25. #25
    TheSexKitten
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    Default Re: Sand and Sorrow..Darfur

    Quote Originally Posted by britt244 View Post
    but put it into perspective. maybe not you and i, but what about a child living in the ghetto who watches their mother be beaten, raped, whatever, and they themselves are beaten, etc. or they have a very loving family (not likely though. violence is much higher in poverty) but they can't eat at night or they don't have a place to sleep. that family, and most likely that community, in america, is more important to me than a child on another continent. that sounds selfish, i know, but how can we begin to help fix the problems of another country when our own country is in the state that it is in? (in terms of EVERYTHING.. finances, healthcare, murders, war, homelessness, everything you can imagine)
    Yeah... but again, different story than what I was directly talking about. I was just saying that a high medical bill and genocide in Darfur (actually not referring to your post Twisterinaz) is sorta like comparing apples and oranges.

    what we need to do is get home, stay home for a while, and rely on diplomacy til we get our own shit straight. Also agreed with the sad inevitablity of the person who mentioned that Darfur is home to only some of many, many atrocities occuring at this very second.

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