^What in the world would make you say that? What are you defining as altruism?
^What in the world would make you say that? What are you defining as altruism?
I believe the vast majority of people are good at their core but don't always exhibit behavior that demonstrates this. Rather, it's a constant work in progress striving to be a good person.
Do I believe in selfless good deeds? Not really. I'm not just talking about people doing good deeds for the purpose of self promotion, etc. It could be as simple as holding an elevator or clearing your own table at McDonald's. People do find intrinsic value in actions they feel are positive (i.e., it makes them feel good). Or you could look at it from another angle and say not doing these things can cause them to feel guilty and so their motive becomes avoiding this feeling.



It is a great question--especially for you now, Kaiyla: I see that after you went through with the car you are trying to regain some trust in the human spirit. When the human being is cut off from the heart, almost anything can happen. In your case, people are operating against you because they have figured out a way to gain from a situation that really inconveniences you (and endangered you)--if they had a heart, some kind of moral center, they of course would not do it. But in our society money is held up as a virtue: it is not hard to see how one could "rationalize" being immoral in such a case--"Hey, everyone's has to live! So what if we milk the system a little?" It is not right, but these people are operating only for themselves and clearly with no moral compass at all. It makes me mad that you are going through it. It would be worse, though, if you gave in to the temptation that we all have in such situations: to take these two people and let them represent the general population. (I think we do this to survive. It is easier, in a situation like this, to be mad at everyone, to watch out only for ourselves as kind of a retaliation. And for a while it feels good). But people like this are an exception. You can see, every day, in millions of situations, people just trying to do good things for each other. It does not get them recognition, but they are the true backbone of humanity.
I recently did some research into the Resistance in Europe in World War II. The Nazis were baffled at the courage of these Resistance people, and especially by the courage of the women. Even in the hands of the Gestapo, Nazi records reported that, in Czechoslovakia for instance, when threatened with the worst reprisals, the women would say, "we are proud to die for our country." These women and men of the Resistance operated from the heart--from the moral center. They knew that the Nazis were wrong, and did everything possible to stop them. They were more than good: they were magnificent. And there were thousands of them.
We don't often see such courage in the United States--such caring for the other, primarily because we are rarely faced with such extreme circumstances. But that courage and caring is there. We saw it, briefly, for a few weeks after 9/11. I think you can safely believe in the human heart, even if there are some who try to take advantage--I would weather that storm as best you can, but try to keep in mind the good souls on the earth as well.
Last edited by jhuka; 01-19-2008 at 07:28 PM.
JK Jim





i want to change my answer a bit. despite the things i said about myself, i still think i'm a good person.
honestly, i dont know if i think there's such thing as a "bad" person. i think there are mentally ill people. i think there are people who don't know any better. i think there are people who make mistakes. those mistakes or brain chemistry imbalances may cause them to do bad things. but there is a difference between a bad person and a bad action. i think it is very rare to see someone who is a truly "bad" person who is just that.
i think we have to believe that people are good, because if we don't, what's left? that's a scary thing to think about.
Same for me. I think if we look deep enough, we find that people ultimately get something out of everything they do, and on balance, the best possible choice for them.
For me I guess I don't find it to be scary because I think even without the notion of goodness, people will still behave more or less the same as they do if they believe it. At times they will still do what is in apparent best interest of others, because it is also in their interests. But overall, they will still tend to treat each other well because a world like that is also in their own best interest.Originally Posted by britt244
I guess for my philosophy of life, I think it's all "just stuff". It's up to us to give it meaning, or not. That's what is left for me. Most of us have the opportunity to create something new, add something, leave something behind, or not. Our choice. We can choose to make events in our life meaningful or we can choose to make it mundane. No outside influences to make us do anything. Maybe in the far distant future humans will be much more intelligent, exploring the universe, thinking in ways we haven't dreamed of, creating new art we have never conceived of, or.. maybe not. It is up to us to choose.





^ why should a counselor try and help an alcoholic, then? or a drug addict? you could say theyre a bad person, so you cant help them. i think its a very depressing thought to think that people arent good. just my opinion, though.
The same reason most do it today. It's a paying job. Very few people do it for nothing, and if the pay check stopped the majority wouldn't.
But people do act in ways that benefit themselves and their offspring indirectly. It is sometimes in our best interest to "help" other people with problems because it improves the conditions for all of us (in the long run). We still get something out of it.
Some also get an ego stroke out of helping others. It "makes them feel good". Of course they live in a society where they receive encouragement and praise for doing so. If they didn't, we'd probably see a lot less of it.





see, that makes me sad. it makes me sad when people do things just to do them, not because they believe in them. i guess my view is skewed because where i work, everyone is there because they love helping the kids and its NOT about the money. we make SHIT. yes, i enjoy what i do. but i would not enjoy just hanging out, babysitting the kids, the same way that i do when i HELP them.





Good and bad are not concrete ideas that are universally applied to all people. My idea of "good" is very different from say Ted Nugent's.
Altruism, to me, is an act without personal benefit but that does positively benefit someone/thing else. Perhaps I was too impressionable and cynical when I studied Goldstein and Maslow's theories on self-actualization but every action is made to fulfill some type of need/want - be that finding dinner or one's quest to be a "better" person. I believe we are essentially a selfish species.
Because there ain't no tits on the radio





That is fucking funny as hell. Also a cogent observation.
I am not really all that impressed with the magnificent acts of 'altruism' practiced by some of the great robber barons of a century ago, even though I myself benefited from the altruism of one of the most famous, John D Rockefeller.
"Although Rockefeller often gained control by purchasing smaller companies in public, he also seized power privately or through proxy to hide the fact that his behemoth trust would soon destroy the smaller company. Moreover, if buying stock proved too arduous, Rockefeller sometimes hired armed Pinkerton Agents to "persuade" his competition to relinquish control. The Pinkerton Agents were famed for their club-wielding ability, and many a small business owner became familiar with the wrong end of those clubs."*
Well, damn, what a scumbag.
Yet that scumbag was a renowned philanthropist, who founded the University of Chicago, from which I received a full scholarship. Should I castigate or praise the man?
From what I have seen of life, the evidence is clear. There are evil people, and they will hurt you if you don't watch your ass, especially in certain areas.
Children are born without a concept of right and wrong. They know they want mommy's attention, that's about it. If they don't get what they want, they will scream and cry until they get it, or learn that screaming and crying don't work.
It does seem obvious that certain progeny of any species will exhibit apparently innate, inborn proclivity to be somewhat more gentle or aggressive than their siblings, but why this might be is, I suspect, very much a matter of debate.
But I have also noticed that there sometimes can be found, in even the most evil of men, a 'good' side. Just like the movies, lol. The most striking example of this I have seen was a manager of a stripclub I worked in a few years ago. Probably the most brutal man I have known at all well, he could nonetheless be extremely funny, likable, almost generous on rare occasions. Just don't ever cross him, or let him get the impression you did. And I doubt very much he ever gave anything to anyone that didn't benefit him more than the recipient in some way--and even this was extremely rare.
He gave me a cool book once.
There are generous people out there, and some of them even give from their heart without any need to have their asses kissed or their egos pumped. But such men and women are exceedingly rare, from my experience.
*http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/l...lecture05.html
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
George Clinton
______________________________________
Beware the "Wolf In Sheep's Clothing"...My perception of people was shattered by a man I knew who used people's sympathy to his advantage- early on in life he learned this. He was also raised by women so he knew how to play on women's emotions quite easily. The easiest way to describe him is the song "Killing Me Softly"...He knew what buttons to push...
I can't think of him now without total disgust. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
This is really funny because I'm supposed to visit the DC-Baltimore area soon & my kid brother begged me not to go, saying it was too dangerous...(His room mate is from Baaawltimore & grew up in the ghetto.)
& My cousin goes to the Naval Academy & he said he finds East Coasters to be insufferably rude...I found people back East to be businesslike and brusque at the worst, but I'm a girl so I guess I see a different side of it....![]()
Last edited by madmaxine; 01-19-2008 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Geography Error





I think of distances in West Coast-sense so driving across Maryland wouldn't seem so rough...but I'm going to where my friend works (the better part of DC) and wherever the Naval Academy is...Someone pointed out military academy grads are on the whole uptight and dickish.




I pretty much agree. Often doing good deeds for others brings the reward of making oneself feel good about themself.
I think the main idea of what I was trying to get across (and probably did so poorly) was that most of us don't know what truly brings happiness. So, we have instances (for example) of someone being in a rush to get somewhere so they cut another person off in traffic. I doubt that the motive was to piss the other person off (no evil intent). It was to get a "reward" of sorts. Thing is the "reward" in this case (and many cases) really adds little value for the person.
Could this be thoughtlessness? Perhaps. I think it has more to do with a human condition of not understanding who we are, what we are, or what we really need to bring about happiness.









This is a very nice way to state your point. If a "bad" act is committed against us then it should lead to reflection. Could it have been a misundertanding? In most cases it probably is just that. Also, we have to remember ourselves and our own faults before rushing to judge another as "bad".




And thus describes my parents. My mom always begged me not to tell the other people in the Russian community about what went on in our house. However, everyone already knew it. She was still terrified at some intangible "gossip" that might get out and ruin our family's "reputation." Ha!
OTOH, I think they are good people, for the most part. The denial is definately strong.
I like the post about people being neutral. I think I'm a good person, but very selfish and self-serving, as most. But random acts of kindness from strangers is always appreciated, even if I am that stranger. Babble, babble, babble....
"Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
"And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion
Originally Posted by Mia M
They help because thats is the job they get paid to do. Its not a well-paying job though, and often substance abuse counselors are former addicts, or have it in their family. They want to prevent the cycle from continuing. But it is a job like any other, and people become angry and embittered from it, because they can't help a lot of sick people.
"Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
"And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion
Originally Posted by Mia M





i have to say i cant take full credit for that, haha.. thats one of the things they constantly remind us at my day job. the kids bite, hit, throw things, scream at you that theyre going to kill you, whatever.. but we have to remember that we arent angry at the child. we're angry at their behavior.





well i know. but like i said, that's sad. to me, at least. i wish more people stood behind things because they believed in them. which, the way you describe it, they do, at least to some degree. which is important. how can you practice something you don't believe in? (thats a rhetorical question. i know that people do. i'm just saying..)
Well, it's not all sad. I mean people do get something out of helping others. They do get some emotional self-reinforcement out of it. But there are limits of course. People still need to make a living, live a life, watch out for themselves, etc. The need for money, watching out for self, etc., remains.
Let me put it like this... if you are a dancer (or a banker, or you selling sporting goods, etc.) it doesn't make you a "bad" person for making a living that does not obviously "help" the needy. Right? Likewise, it doesn't make you necessarily GOOD as such for choosing other careers that seemingly help people. It is of course stressful to work as a counselor or nurse, etc., , but so are many other jobs that are not so clearly about "helping".
No, I don't. I don't believe some of us are "bad", perhaps just corrupted. I believe you are born with certain traits. I believe certain traits are conditioned within us by our situation growing up or what we were taught. Then I believe we have choices after that as to how we handle it.
Some people may be genetically predispositioned to have mental disorders or attributes which hinder them unable to strive as a responsible, caring citizen. Some are brought up in a shitty situation or dysfunctional household like I was. Then they make a choice as to whether they want to move on and be a better person or conform to their situation and be just like what they came from.
Some people may be having a hard time or going through a rough time and just bitter as well. Some of us just have a shitty day and it shines through. Some just don't care, plain and simple.
People are thrown into situations that may force behaviour that is good or bad. Everyone is both.
When i meet or have to deal with people i do so very cautious. WE have the power to bring out good or bad in anyone.
We all are both. We have to be. It's not a fault, it's survival.
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