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Thread: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

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    God/dess FBR's Avatar
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    Default So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    http://www.yahoo.com/s/792074

    We handed all our manufacturing jobs over to China free of charge and they won't even give us a kiss after they boink us. Piss off on the US, there is always Europe and other markets.

    Even though it is closed I refer you all to the discussion in the Political Poo thread "Buying US vs. Foreign Cars". Which was a discussion about not only automobiles but US manufactured products generally. Those same folks who laughed and said it wouldn't affect them..foreign products are so much better than US goods..are now complaining in the boards how their income has dropped significantly and they don't understand why.

    FBR
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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    http://www.yahoo.com/s/792074

    We handed all our manufacturing jobs over to China free of charge and they won't even give us a kiss after they boink us.
    All due respect, R, China didn't fuck us, U.S. retail and corporations did when they began either buying everything from there or having all their products manufactured there. I'm more than happy to not buy anything from China and would encourage everyone to join in on my continued boycott of Wal-Mart, leading consumer of Chinese products and contributing factor in this country's exchange of good, long-term manufacturing jobs for shitty service/retail ones.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Plus you DO have to realise that China is helping Bush fund his war efforts .....


    Regardless, THIS is the reason why Australia will also not be too affected by the US recession. We rely more on China and what is happening with their economy than what is happening in the US.... yes even tho' interest rates were only risen recently due to some of the 'big' banks here having suffered from the sub prime collapse (without the Reserve Bank of Australia doing so).


    enter: E3167322D9 for your 10% discount

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    ^^^ I would back up a step further and contend that US retail and corporations weren't the first link in this chain of change. It is entirely arguable that high gov't mandated corporate tax rates, high gov't mandated minimum wage and employee benefit costs, high gov't mandated environmental compliance costs, high US court mandated product liability costs etc. set these events in motion.

    As a result of the above, US manufacturers had no choice but to raise prices to cover their increased gov't mandated costs of doing business ... and in doing so gave foreign competitors who do not face the same sort of gov't mandated costs an advantage. As more and more time passed, and as these gov't mandated costs on US companies continued to rise, US company management came to the conclusion that they either had to look offshore to achieve a similar cost structure as their foreign competitors or they were going to go broke. At the same time US retailers saw a falloff in sales of US made merchandise as the wholesale price was increased to compensate for rising US gov't mandated production costs, so they were effectively forced to offer foreign competitors' products in order to maintain sales volume.

    Thus it is certainly arguable that US gov't policy is in fact what fucked us - and since that policy is the result of elections, in essence we have fucked ourselves - by voting for politicians who want to impose stricter environmental regulations, who want to institute larger social welfare programs that require higher tax rates to finance, who will appoint judges that are biased against corporations etc.


    Plus you DO have to realise that China is helping Bush fund his war efforts .
    true, but China / Saudi Arabia etc. are also helping many US banks to fund the purchase of houses / cars / credit card purchases. Eventually the 'other shoe will drop' on ALL sorts of future financing as the Chinese / Saudis gain greater and greater 'ownership' of American banks. Same point applies to China / Saudi Arabia funding US state budget deficits which allow the continuation of generous social welfare spending levels, the continuation of well paid public sector employment etc.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    ^^^corporate greed had nothing to do with it I guess?

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    ^^^ well, to quote the immortal 'Gordon Gecko' ... "greed is good, greed works". Yes certainly there is an element of profit motive involved in corporations wishing to take advantages of the lower costs of doing business which are available offshore ... stemming the whole gamut from relative wage rates to relative employee benefit costs to relative costs of electricity (dirty coal vs clean natural gas) to relative product liability costs, to relative environmental compliance costs.

    However, the degree of cost differential that is motivating corporations to go offshore is directly proportional to the degree which US gov't policy increases the costs of doing business in the USA !!! Corporations would NOT be making these sort of investments and disrupting their supply chains if this differential were only 10%. But, based on democrat proposals for Chinese tariffs, this differential is more like 27% !!! And independent of that 27% differential in operating costs, there's also the issue of a separate differential in corporate tax rates in the US versus foreign countries, which arguably falls in the neighborhood of 35% US versus 10% in some foreign countries.

    Corporations would also argue that your definition of greed actually equates to corporate survival and avoidance of stockholder losses.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    ^^^I'm having a hard time understanding what you are arguing for? Are you suggesting that we lower our standards here to allow for lower wages and less environmental regulation so that we can keep jobs from being outsourced, and that this will in turn be a benefit for all of us here? Seems like twisted logic to me.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    ^^^ no, the twisted logic is that our decision to set 'high standards' in our own country has not been applied, and cannot be applied, to other countries that are not subject to the same 'high standards' has consequences. If we want to maintain those 'high standards', we should not be complaining about the inescapable consequences.

    There are basically two alternatives. A - leave things as they are and expect to see more and more US businesses pack up US operations and fire US workers ... with an associated decline in the US standard of living. B - enact border tariffs like the democrat proposed 27% Chinese import tax to compensate for the 27% additional gov't mandated costs of doing business in the USA ... with an associated decline in the US standard of living as a result of import prices increasing 27% across the board.

    There is no longer an option C, which up to now has been to saddle US businesses with higher mandated costs while at the same time enjoying the high standard of living made possible by the tax free import of foreign products - basically postponing the onset of the inevitable consequences of setting 'high standards' here in the USA. This option C could only be maintained as long as American consumers ... whose incomes were dropping as more and more US businesses closed down our outsourced ... were able to spend borrowed money loaned to them by the foreign producers ! Now that the Chinese / Saudis are both purchasing substantial interest in major US banks, and are reducing the amount of trade surplus dollars they are willing to risk bankrolling additional loans in the USA, Option C is officially toast ... with the inevitable decline in US standard of living to soon follow.

    There is of course a theoretical option D - which would be to reduce the gov't mandated costs on US businesses via relaxation of environmental laws, worker safety laws, product liability laws, minimum wage, minimum employee benefits, reduced corporate tax rates etc. which would allow the net costs of doing business in the USA to have less of a differential compared to the costs of doing business overseas. Such action would be about the only way to maintain the US standard of living at recent levels. However, with political realities being what they are, option D doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being enacted. Therefore a decline in the US standard of living is inevitable. All that will be left to argue over is whether or not that inevitable decline in the US standard of living will be distributed evenly across the board, versus gov't tax / redistribution policies causing the standard of living for certain Americans to decline more than the standard of living for other Americans.

    Back to the point of the original post, if the declining US standard of living and a cutoff of US consumer credit capital by the Chinese / Saudis makes it impossible for many Americans to afford the purchase of Chinese products in the near future (not to mention US products), the Chinese will simply move on to Europe or to their own growing 'middle class' or to the growing 'middle class' in India / Vietnam for future customers. The Saudis have few worries, since short of opening up US coasts and the ANWR for new oil drilling their major export product will continue to be purchased by Americans no matter what the cost.

    I guess the bottom line is that, while the future American standard of living will likely approach that of Mexicans, at least we'll have cleaner air and water - assuming of course that the trade winds and ocean currents don't transport additional Chinese pollution right back to the USA !
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-26-2008 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    http://www.yahoo.com/s/792074

    We handed all our manufacturing jobs over to China free of charge and they won't even give us a kiss after they boink us. Piss off on the US, there is always Europe and other markets.

    Even though it is closed I refer you all to the discussion in the Political Poo thread "Buying US vs. Foreign Cars". Which was a discussion about not only automobiles but US manufactured products generally. Those same folks who laughed and said it wouldn't affect them..foreign products are so much better than US goods..are now complaining in the boards how their income has dropped significantly and they don't understand why.

    FBR

    That damn China.
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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by leilanicandy View Post
    That damn China.
    More like "Those damn CEOs."

    A more than a few shoppers too.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^ It is entirely arguable that high gov't mandated corporate tax rates, high gov't mandated minimum wage and employee benefit costs, high gov't mandated environmental compliance costs, high US court mandated product liability costs etc. set these events in motion.

    That bears repeating. We demanded more protections and more perks, until a business had become so saddled with expenses there was no profit at all. Thus business leaves.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    That bears repeating. We demanded more protections and more perks, until a business had become so saddled with expenses there was no profit at all. Thus business leaves.
    I don't get your point either? Sounds like you are now advocating lower wages and less environment protections here in the USA. How about pushing for fair trade pacts instead?

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Richard, you sound like my beloved Portland customers with whom I discuss politics while barely clothed. Until I shush them and bend over.

    The way I see it, when Reagan-era deregulation began eroding protection for workers, companies were free to pay less, eroding American purchasing power, leading to this artificially cheap food and clothing and other consumer goods that can only be produced at that low price point by foreign manufacturers, leading to fewer decent jobs and more lower-paying ones, resulting in more working poor who can only afford to buy cheaper products that can only be produced at that low price point etc etc etc.

    I'm unsure about fair trade pacts because I think the current situation won't go back in the tube, but in my fantasies China becomes the new Cuba. Or has a Velvet Revolution led by progressives. Or splinters into twenty smaller countries. China scares me.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward View Post
    Richard, you sound like my beloved Portland customers with whom I discuss politics while barely clothed. Until I shush them and bend over.
    Now that sounds fun.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    That bears repeating. We demanded more protections and more perks, until a business had become so saddled with expenses there was no profit at all. Thus business leaves.
    I don't consider clean air and water "perks."

    I'll go with the head up his ass guy with "fair trade" instead of "free trade."

    Regardless all these "perks" the jobs are going anyways. So what does it matter in the end?

    Poor and polluted?

    Poor and clean?

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    I don't get your point either? Sounds like you are now advocating lower wages and less environment protections here in the USA. How about pushing for fair trade pacts instead?
    Not advocating any such thing, and i will kindly ask you not to put words into my mouth. There are consequences to even good decisions.

    IT IS ABOUT NATURAL COMPETITION.

    Workers comp, enforced safety regulations, minimum wages, on site daycare, maternity leaves, 8 or 12 hour work days, 5 day work weeks, health benefits, etc etc etc. These are all costs. China could not give a flying fuck about any of them. Thus these costs are not included in the manufacturing of any products destined for US shores. Having to pay for these plus the cost of materials, wages, equipment and real estate, means that a US product is significantly more expensive than a comparable Chinese product. Without a system of tarrifs and enforcement of product safety and quality; the US business will either close there doors or move overseas with their once good earning jobs.

    Fuck the word "Fair" life isn't, and no amount of Laws or Regulations could make it so.

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    Default Re: So China says they aren't worried about our recession

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Not advocating any such thing, and i will kindly ask you not to put words into my mouth. There are consequences to even good decisions.

    IT IS ABOUT NATURAL COMPETITION.

    Workers comp, enforced safety regulations, minimum wages, on site daycare, maternity leaves, 8 or 12 hour work days, 5 day work weeks, health benefits, etc etc etc. These are all costs. China could not give a flying fuck about any of them. Thus these costs are not included in the manufacturing of any products destined for US shores. Having to pay for these plus the cost of materials, wages, equipment and real estate, means that a US product is significantly more expensive than a comparable Chinese product. Without a system of tarrifs and enforcement of product safety and quality; the US business will either close there doors or move overseas with their once good earning jobs.

    Fuck the word "Fair" life isn't, and no amount of Laws or Regulations could make it so.
    I think you pretty much have the argument for protectionism.

    It is coming to the point of protecting people's standard of living.

    Otherwise we are all due for the slums... the race to the bottom. Then we will be all scratching our heads mumbling "Well, that really wasn't worth it - we ended up at the same place by a different road."

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