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Thread: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

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    God/dess FBR's Avatar
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    Default Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    I thought this article was interesting. I guess not all opportunities to make a good blue collar wage have fled the country.

    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080127/shipb..._shortage.html

    Clearly, we should focus on training and so forth for those trades that are difficult to send offshore.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    ^^^ well, let's see. If you assume that the starting wage is $2 per hour less than the $18.50 wage for experienced welders, this company is asking new people to work in a hot dangerous environment as well as breathe all sorts of toxic welding smokes for a pay rate of less than $35k per year ... which is also enough income to make them ineligible for social welfare benefits. On the other hand, in the state of PA, a new person can take a $10 an hour job that does not involve a hot dangerous environment or exposure to toxic welding smoke, earn $21k per year, but also apply for and receive free medicaid coverage, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities, food stamps, and a host of other benefits ... which arguably will provide them with the same de-facto standard of living as the welding job would. So you tell me why the PA shipbuilder is having problems finding willing new workers !

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Melonie, where are you getting your hourly wage numbers? Try, at least here in Ohio, $28'ish non union and $40'ish union. Which is $60-80K per year for 40 hours per week.

    My point is that these are are good middle class US jobs and we should be encouraging folks to consider entering the trade, particularly if employers are begging.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    BrunetteGoddess
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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    She got her hourly wage numbers from the article, in which it said the top welder in the company in reference made $18.50/hour.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    earn $21k per year, but also apply for and receive free medicaid coverage, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities, food stamps, and a host of other benefits ...
    Are you sure about that?

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Quote Originally Posted by BrunetteGoddess View Post
    She got her hourly wage numbers from the article, in which it said the top welder in the company in reference made $18.50/hour.
    Yeah, that would explain it. That sounds pretty low for welders (and most other skilled trades). No doubt they are all working in Ohio or Michigan or other places where they're being paid better. Maybe if he *gasp* paid the market rate for welders he'd find more.

    FBR has a good point though -- welding, plumbing, electrical work, and other skilled construction trades -- these are jobs that pretty much can't be outsourced. I know at least a couple of guys who finished expensive liberal arts degrees and spent some post-college time seriously underemployed before coming to the same conclusion.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Are you sure about that?
    eligibility in northeast states is based on the official federal 'poverty line' calculation. It's $27k in New York, so it has to be above $21k in PA.

    As to an 'acceptable' pay rate for welders of $28 per hour, yes obviously people who work at such jobs ( and also electricians, plumbers etc.) will obtain a significantly higher standard of living than they could have with a $10 an hour job plus social welfare benefits. However, in this particular case, I am led to believe that if this shipbuilder actually offered to pay $28 per hour instead of $18 an hour in order to attract willing new workers, that his customer orders would also disappear due to the associated price increases for his products.

    Global competitiveness in shipbuilding is based on relative labor costs and overhead costs, since all basically pay the 'world market' price for steel. So any US manufacturer can be competitive on a worldwide basis if only he can force down his labor costs to a low enough level. It would appear that between the weaker dollar and an $18 an hour US dollar denominated pay rate that this shipbuilder can once again secure orders from foreign buyers. Just think, if the dollar falls another 20%, maybe this shipbuilder can afford to raise welder pay to $20 an hour and still remain competitive ! Of course the $2 an hour pay raise will leave the welder less well off than he was at $18 an hour before the US dollar devaluation ... because income taxes will increase, the price of gasoline / food / everything else imported will increase, etc.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    eligibility in northeast states is based on the official federal 'poverty line' calculation. It's $27k in New York, so it has to be above $21k in PA.
    Where are you getting these numbers from though? I still contend that they are too high, unless you're maybe talking about a family of 3.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    Where are you getting these numbers from though? I still contend that they are too high, unless you're maybe talking about a family of 3.
    Richard has an excellent point. According to the official H.H.S 2006 Federal Poverty Line your numbers are too high for a family of 3 ; a family of 4 and even a family of 5.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    (snip)"Income eligibility. This differs from program to program. An applicant’s adjusted annual income must not exceed the income limit for the applicable HUD program. Income limitations are based upon the median income in the area where the program is located. For example, public housing applicants must be low-income families, defined by HUD as families with an income that is no greater than 80 percent of the area’s median income. Housing Choice Voucher Program applicants must be very low-income families, with income not exceeding 50 percent of the area’s median income. Your local PHA can provide information about median income and income limits for your area. This information is also available from the HUD User website at (select the “data sets” link). Applicants for federally-assisted and state regulated developments must meet the federal program requirements. Household composition is a factor in determining income eligibility and in determining whether the household is eligible for a specific unit based upon occupancy standards and the number of bedrooms.

    Tenant assets. There is no asset limit in HUD assisted housing programs. However, annual income does include net income from family assets."(snip) from

    According to the HUD website data at , the 2007 figure for 50% of state median income for PA (a.k.a. 'Very Low Income' ) is $21,000 ... and the 2007 figure for 80% of state median income for PA (a.k.a. 'Low Income') is $ 33,600 ... for ONE PERSON ! At the $21k level or below a person has full eligibility for benefits. Between the $21k and $33,600 level there is a phaseout, and above $33,600 all eligibility for benefits is lost. Thus a PA resident earning $21k per year is not only eligible for subsidized public housing occupancy, but is also eligible to receive a rent subsidy check / voucher on a monthly basis which can be used to directly subsidize monthly rent payments to a private landlord. Same applies to subsidized heat / utility programs that are tied to subsidized housing.

    I suspect that you guys have been dwelling on the federal TANF a.k.a. 'Welfare' eligibility requirement, which is only $14,160 (net) per year for a single person but rises to $18,972 for two people and to $23,820 for three people. These TANF limits do not apply to HUD subsidized rent or subsidized utility programs. Also, I never included TANF a.k.a. 'Welfare' checks in my list of eligible benefits.
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-28-2008 at 03:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward View Post
    FBR has a good point though -- welding, plumbing, electrical work, and other skilled construction trades -- these are jobs that pretty much can't be outsourced. I know at least a couple of guys who finished expensive liberal arts degrees and spent some post-college time seriously underemployed before coming to the same conclusion.
    They are simply hired from south and central America.

    Ask any black man trying to rebuild New Orleans.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    eligibility in northeast states is based on the official federal 'poverty line' calculation. It's $27k in New York, so it has to be above $21k in PA.

    As to an 'acceptable' pay rate for welders of $28 per hour, yes obviously people who work at such jobs ( and also electricians, plumbers etc.) will obtain a significantly higher standard of living than they could have with a $10 an hour job plus social welfare benefits. However, in this particular case, I am led to believe that if this shipbuilder actually offered to pay $28 per hour instead of $18 an hour in order to attract willing new workers, that his customer orders would also disappear due to the associated price increases for his products.

    Global competitiveness in shipbuilding is based on relative labor costs and overhead costs, since all basically pay the 'world market' price for steel. So any US manufacturer can be competitive on a worldwide basis if only he can force down his labor costs to a low enough level. It would appear that between the weaker dollar and an $18 an hour US dollar denominated pay rate that this shipbuilder can once again secure orders from foreign buyers. Just think, if the dollar falls another 20%, maybe this shipbuilder can afford to raise welder pay to $20 an hour and still remain competitive ! Of course the $2 an hour pay raise will leave the welder less well off than he was at $18 an hour before the US dollar devaluation ... because income taxes will increase, the price of gasoline / food / everything else imported will increase, etc.
    Ah yep. It is basically going to come down that the US must lower the minimum wage to the global market wage if we want all this free trade to be going on.

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    Default Re: Shipbuilders can't find skilled workers

    ^^^ actually it points out the pros and cons of this new 'destroy the US dollar' policy. The US can avoid reducing the minimum wage from $7.50 or whatever and achieve the same effect by simply trashing the dollar another 50%. The unskilled worker will still get paid the 'same' minimum wage. The welder will still get paid $18.50 per hour. However, imported gasoline will cost $5 a gallon. 'Global' commodities like food prices will increase by 50%. But the barge-builder will be able to sell more barges since the same US dollar denominated price will actually be a LOWER price for customers whose home currencies haven't fallen along with the dollar !

    It's important to take note of who actually gains and who actually loses re a weak dollar policy.

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