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Thread: who should realy be able to vote?

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    God/dess krchab99's Avatar
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    Default who should realy be able to vote?

    I am just opening this topic for discussion not offering any opione just yet. I was having this conversation with a great friend of mine and it gave me something to think about to say the least. Do you thing voteing should be just land and/or business ownerers? Or do you think peole on welfare and other social programs and don't work should be able to vote? do you think that having more control over who is voteing will lead to better leaders? Futhermore what do you think of union endorsements Ill give an opione on those i think its crap to tell a large group of people who they should be voteing for and insults the intellagance of the voter. Okay discuss...

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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    ^^^Sounds like you've been listening to too much right wing propaganda. Nothing would be gained by suppressing votes, that would just open up a whole new can of worms. Besides that, I don't actually think the problem is with too many people voting who shouldn't be voting, I think the problem is that not enough people period are voting. To have a truly representative government everybody needs to be voting.

    As for unions, if one candidate is more likely to help their cause I don't see any harm in the union endorsing said candidate, it's not like they are making the union members vote for that candidate after all.

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    Veteran Member dishis's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by krchab99 View Post
    I am just opening this topic for discussion not offering any opione just yet. I was having this conversation with a great friend of mine and it gave me something to think about to say the least. Do you thing voteing should be just land and/or business ownerers? Or do you think peole on welfare and other social programs and don't work should be able to vote? do you think that having more control over who is voteing will lead to better leaders? Futhermore what do you think of union endorsements Ill give an opione on those i think its crap to tell a large group of people who they should be voteing for and insults the intellagance of the voter. Okay discuss...



    I firmly believe every law abiding legal citizen should be able to vote. If we would limit voting to property owners we would be going down a slippery slope. Would we have better leaders ? maybe But it would also take the voice away from most college students, many unestablished young people and most poor people.I think part of what makes this country great is everyone has a say.

    As far as unions go, I do have a big problem with workers being forced to join, pay dues, and then those dues being used to support whatever canidate the union leaders want to support.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Limiting voting to property owners i.e. taxpayers (or those with some 'skin in the game' to use a modern euphemism) was a basic principle that America was founded on. The founding fathers went one step further in choosing a republic and an electoral college over a simple democracy. The reason they did this was to try and avoid America becoming susceptible to 'tyranny of the majority' - which is arguably now a very real risk in this year's election.

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    Veteran Member dishis's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    riod are voting. To have a truly representative government everybody needs to be voting.

    As for unions, if one candidate is more likely to help their cause I don't see any harm in the union endorsing said candidate, it's not like they are making the union members vote for that candidate after all.

    No, but they use required Union dues to support causes and candidates the rank and file may or may not support.

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    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by dishis View Post
    I firmly believe every law abiding legal citizen should be able to vote.
    AMEN!


    Yes because every single law biding citizen makes american. we cant all do the same job. Or have the same things in life. We are all differant and special.


    Besides you dont one of any party in to much control. They get power hungry, greed, and power corrupts people.
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    Senior Member Tara_SW's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    as far as who should be able to vote I think things are the way they should be already

  8. #8
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    In theory, I believe that every law-abiding citizen should have the right to vote. But I've noticed that universal suffrage has coincided with a dramatic increase in the underemployed voting themselves handouts from the till. So I don't know.

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    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Limiting voting to property owners i.e. taxpayers (or those with some 'skin in the game' to use a modern euphemism) was a basic principle that America was founded on. The founding fathers went one step further in choosing a republic and an electoral college over a simple democracy. The reason they did this was to try and avoid America becoming susceptible to 'tyranny of the majority' - which is arguably now a very real risk in this year's election.
    I don't view our Constitution and its framers in the reverential light that many seem to and I don't believe in "good old days". We were founded under elite rule and under elite rule we remain. The American "Revolution" was hardly that, IMO.

    Pardon me while I don my tin foil hat, but I don't believe in tyranny of the majority--only the will of the elite. They purchased and finagled the office of Commander in Chief with utter impunity in 2000 and I have no dount they'll do it again if need be. The die, as they say, has been cast.

    For the record, I think direct democracy is the most revolutionary form of government ever carried out in a real world nation-state.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    But I've noticed that universal suffrage has coincided with a dramatic increase in the underemployed voting themselves handouts from the till. So I don't know.
    We were founded under elite rule and under elite rule we remain.
    well, arguably, we currently live under a combination of both of these. An increasing 'tyranny of the majority' exists as underemployed Americans vote to increase social welfare benefits for themselves, to be financed by high taxes on the middle class and rich elite. The rich elite of course manage to enact laws and loopholes such that they are able to actually escape paying a large portion of those high taxes.

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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    But I've noticed that universal suffrage has coincided with a dramatic increase in the underemployed voting themselves handouts from the till. So I don't know.
    Hmm. I've noticed that Americans delude themselves into electing officials whose policies benefit the very wealthy. And the biggest handouts in this country come in the form of corporate welfare and government subsidies, not assistance to the needy.

    Universal suffrage, y'all. We don't need to change who is allowed to vote, but rather change who actually does and what happens from there.

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    Featured Member Lunarobverse's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Serious question:

    Why would it be bad if non-citizens were allowed to vote, as long as they're also paying taxes and/or receiving the benefits of those taxes (infrastructure use, for example)?

    I, for one, wouldn't be upset by it, as long as we could be sure that people only vote once each.

    And (tongue reaching over towards cheek a bit), maybe fear of how non-citizens would vote, might push more actual citizens to vote and increase the participation levels.
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  13. #13
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie
    well, arguably, we currently live under a combination of both of these. An increasing 'tyranny of the majority' exists as underemployed Americans vote to increase social welfare benefits for themselves, to be financed by high taxes on the middle class and rich elite. The rich elite of course manage to enact laws and loopholes such that they are able to actually escape paying a large portion of those high taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward
    I've noticed that Americans delude themselves into electing officials whose policies benefit the very wealthy. And the biggest handouts in this country come in the form of corporate welfare and government subsidies, not assistance to the needy.
    You're both right. Each party is purchasing votes with handouts to someone, whether the lower classes or upper classes. None of it is constitutional, but what is nowadays?

  14. #14
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Nothing's perfect. It's fine the way it is. In a more logical world, a 17 yo who's rational and up to date on the issues could qualify to vote and a 72 yo alcoholic with Alzheimers would be kept away from the polls. But humans aren't logical. So an arbitrary line of citizens of 18 years and older is as good as any. I guess.

  15. #15
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Who in the right-wing media are saying that? I haven't heard it from Rush Limbaugh, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, or Bill Handel. (Not that I like the first three, but I listen to them anyway when I'm in the car because I find them interesting.)

  16. #16
    Chicagoeditor
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Limiting voting to property owners i.e. taxpayers (or those with some 'skin in the game' to use a modern euphemism) was a basic principle that America was founded on. The founding fathers went one step further in choosing a republic and an electoral college over a simple democracy. The reason they did this was to try and avoid America becoming susceptible to 'tyranny of the majority' - which is arguably now a very real risk in this year's election.

    ^^^ Melonie, let's not forget that we also need to limit voting to MALE property owners, just as the Founders intended. I'm sure this works for you, yes?

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    So... I'm the only one who thinks that every citizen and landed immigrant resident should be allowed to vote, regardless of being "law abiding"? I hardly think a shoplifting charge should disqualify me from voting.

    Interesting use of the phrase "tyranny of the majority" in this thread.
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    Featured Member Lunarobverse's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    So... I'm the only one who thinks that every citizen and landed immigrant resident should be allowed to vote, regardless of being "law abiding"? I hardly think a shoplifting charge should disqualify me from voting.

    Interesting use of the phrase "tyranny of the majority" in this thread.
    Hey, I said that, too!

    OK, technically I asked a question, so maybe it was unclear.

    I think even non-citizens that are paying taxes and/or receiving benefits from living in the US should be allowed to vote.
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    cameron_keys
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    So... I'm the only one who thinks that every citizen and landed immigrant resident should be allowed to vote, regardless of being "law abiding"? I hardly think a shoplifting charge should disqualify me from voting.

    Interesting use of the phrase "tyranny of the majority" in this thread.
    A shoplifting charge wouldnt disqualify you. You are disqualified if you are a convicted felon. Shoplifting(petty larceny) isnt a felony. (unless you steal over a certain dollar amount, which is grand larceny and a felony...but that isnt usually referred to as shoplifting anymore.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Is this in every state cameron? I'm surprised. That seems pretty backwards to me.
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  21. #21
    cameron_keys
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Is this in every state cameron? I'm surprised. That seems pretty backwards to me.
    Yes as far as I know. The dollar amount that changes it from a misdemeaner to a felony (petty to grand larceny) varies from state to state though.

    Why does it seem backwards? It makes sense to me, but then again..I 'm used to it being raised here with the law this way. It's meant to differentiate between someone stealing one sweater and someone stealing the entire sweater department. Both wrong, but the latter is obviously a more serious crime.

    Or did you mean backwards that a person with a misdemeanor can vote, while someone witha felony cant? That makes sense to me too. I dont think someone should be penolized for life for a stupid little thing like stealing a sweater when they were 19...but someone with a serious crime on their record like grand larceny, murder, rape....I dont want them contributing to laws they dont even know how to follow themselves.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    I meant the voting - I get the difference between offences; everyone who is governed by law should be represented. Felons are like... super governed. If we were ever in a situation in which the "felon vote" could rock the boat... we would need to take a serious and hard look at society because it has problems that stopping felons from voting will not fix. I'm just incredibly surprised that is constitutional; it seems anathematic to the entire system of American government - or at least the espoused system. I don't have time right now to look it up for Canada; maybe next week I can see if there have been similar challenges. But really - is this organized federally, or is it state by state?
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  23. #23
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    It's by state. About two-thirds of states automatically restore voting rights upon completion of the sentence. About one-third do not.

    I don't know if any part of the Constitution is specifically on point, except the 14th Amendment, by implication:

    "But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

  24. #24
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    I could've sworn that was federal, the law that felons can't vote. Certainly they can't just move to another state. I was reading something awhile back about how Nick Nolte can't vote because he forged draft cards back in the sixties so he and his classmates could drink.

    Personally, I agree with it. I don't think felons should be able to vote.

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    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: who should realy be able to vote?

    No, felons can vote in some states. It was a big deal back in 2000 when Florida used an old, previously unenforced felon disenfranchisement law (that had originally been passed to prevent blacks from voting) to purge voters in heavily black and historically democratic districts. The officals in charge of the project Katherine Harris (big Bush contributor) and Jeb Bush, instructed the company in charge of purging the rolls to be "lenient". This resulted in thousands and thousands of law-abiding black citizens being disenfranchised because they shared a name, part of a name, a birth date, etc. with a felon in some part of the country.

    I don't believe in disenfranchising felons because a) the racist roots of the practice, b) the history of misuse, and c) I believe in rehabilitation. I don't write people off for mistakes they have made in the past. Certainly not as citizens of the Republic.
    Last edited by Dottie Rebel; 02-07-2008 at 03:00 AM.

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