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Thread: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

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    Default Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Two recent studies published in SCIENCE show that biofuels cause more greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fuels. The studies looked at the effects of converting natural land to cropland. Destruction of rain forests and grasslands release greenhouse gases when they are burned or plowed. Worse yet, the cropland absorbs far less CO2 than the natural land it replaced.

    The total carbon footprint of biofuels from land clearance to fertilizer usage plus refining and transportation and then the ultimate burning of the fuel itself exceeds that of conventional fuels by as much as 93 times more carbon output.. Conversion of U.S. farmland to corn production has increased demand for foreign soybeans and to meet the demand Brazil is clearing more rainforest.

    The only silver linings were A.- Increased use of sugar cane which uses much less energy to grow and refine than corn and less than sugar beets and B.- Use of agricultural waste products. The studies didn't explicitly say whether their conclusions applied to use of bio-diesel fuels.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    ^^^ not surprising to see this study published at all. The other non-surprising figure is the low actual net energy gain for corn based ethanol, versus the fossil fuels needed to produce the fertilizer, pump the irrigation water, plow the fields, distill the ethanol, and truck (instead of pipeline) the refined ethanol to market.

    As to your silver linings, point A. sugar cane only works in Florida, a small slice of LA and TX, and Hawaii. Therefore as far superior as sugar cane ethanol may be from a net energy balance standpoint, it is NOT practical for use in the USA. And of course America already blocks the import of foreign sugar cane based ethanol via an outright import quota (max 10% of domestic US ethanol production) plus a 54 cent per gallon tariff which must be added to the price of imported ethanol but not to US ethanol.

    point B. the use of agricultural waste products certainly has a better theoretical energy / land use equation since these waste products would exist whether converted to ethanol or used as fertilizer. However, there are a large number of problems in regard to the energy balance that results from the additional processing operations required to get low starch low sugar feedstocks through the refining process ... to the point where right now far more energy is consumed by the processing than is present in the ethanol produced. So while this offers tantalizing future possibilities (i.e. bioengineered digester bugs etc.), right now it is a laboratory experiment rather than a practical realistic option.


    I suspect that a lot of people will be disappointed, as this study will now require that Kyoto 'carbon tax' be charged on ethanol fuels right along with gasoline ! The 'tin foil hat' crowd would tell you that a large segment of environmental activist mentors had been hoping that the enacting of the Kyoto 'carbon tax' only on gasoline would help offset the fact that ethanol is significantly more expensive per gallon than gasoline.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ not surprising to see this study published at all. The other non-surprising figure is the low actual net energy gain for corn based ethanol, versus the fossil fuels needed to produce the fertilizer, pump the irrigation water, plow the fields, distill the ethanol, and truck (instead of pipeline) the refined ethanol to market.

    As to your silver linings, point A. sugar cane only works in Florida, a small slice of LA and TX, and Hawaii. Therefore as far superior as sugar cane ethanol may be from a net energy balance standpoint, it is NOT practical for use in the USA. And of course America already blocks the import of foreign sugar cane based ethanol via an outright import quota (max 10% of domestic US ethanol production) plus a 54 cent per gallon tariff which must be added to the price of imported ethanol but not to US ethanol.

    point B. the use of agricultural waste products certainly has a better theoretical energy / land use equation since these waste products would exist whether converted to ethanol or used as fertilizer. However, there are a large number of problems in regard to the energy balance that results from the additional processing operations required to get low starch low sugar feedstocks through the refining process ... to the point where right now far more energy is consumed by the processing than is present in the ethanol produced. So while this offers tantalizing future possibilities (i.e. bioengineered digester bugs etc.), right now it is a laboratory experiment rather than a practical realistic option.


    I suspect that a lot of people will be disappointed, as this study will now require that Kyoto 'carbon tax' be charged on ethanol fuels right along with gasoline !

    Two words - PUERTO RICO. The island has had an underutilized capacity for growing sugar cane for DECADES ! Additionally, sugar cane can be grown in southern Mississippi and Alabama and with global warming the potential growing area is inceasing. While not as efficient as sugar cane, sugar beets are also much more efficient than corn. Corn is being used strictly for POLITICAL reasons. Think
    I O W A .

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    We can also grow sugar cane on Guam; the U.S. Virgin Islands and in American Samoa.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    We can also grow sugar cane on Guam; the U.S. Virgin Islands and in American Samoa.
    ... which if I am not mistaken, are also exempt from the recently increased US minimum wage that will (supposedly) apply to farm labor in the 50 states. If I remember correctly House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi snuck through the US territories exemption from the minimum wage law to 'pay back' her major corporate constituent Del Monte foods !

    of course, American Samoans don't carry too much clout in terms of electoral votes or congressional seats !

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... which if I am not mistaken, are also exempt from the recently increased US minimum wage that will (supposedly) apply to farm labor in the 50 states. If I remember correctly House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi snuck through the US territories exemption from the minimum wage law to 'pay back' her major corporate constituent Del Monte foods !

    of course, American Samoans don't carry too much clout in terms of electoral votes or congressional seats !
    I'll never understand why we allow them to have nonvoting congressmen... Just give them a vote, it's not like their suddenly going to amass tons of power and make ridiculous changes.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    I heard about this on NPR the other day and immediately thought of Melonie, TL, and all of the SW politico crew. Interesting....

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    some additional info on the 'costs' associated with various biofuel feedstock sources ...



    (snip)"Global oil output has been stagnant for four years, failing to keep up with rampant demand from Asia and the Mid-East. China's imports rose 14pc last year. Biofuels from grain, oil seed and sugar are plugging the gap, but drawing away food supplies at a time when the world is adding more than 70m mouths to feed a year.

    "Markets are as tight as a drum and now the US has hit the stimulus button," said Mr Currie in his 2008 outlook. "We have never seen this before when commodity prices were already at record highs. Over the next 18 to 36 months we are probably going into crisis mode across the commodity complex.

    "The key is going to be agriculture. China is terrified of the current situation. It has real physical shortages," he said, referencing China still having memories of starvation in the 1960s seared in its collective mind.

    While the US housing crash poses some threat to the price of metals and energy, the effect has largely occurred already. The slide in crude prices over the past month may have been caused by funds liquidating derivatives contracts to cover other demands rather than by recession fears. Goldman Sachs forecasts that oil will be priced at $105 a barrel by the end of 2008.

    The current "supercycle" is a break with history because energy and food have "converged" in price and can increasingly be switched from one use to another.

    Corn can be used for ethanol in cars and power plants, for plastics, as well as in baking tortillas. Natural gas can be made into fertiliser for food output. "Peak Oil" is morphing into "Peak Food".

    Land use for biofuels has shot up from 12m to more than 80m hectares worldwide over six years. Biofuel provides 3pc of global energy needs, which will rise to an estimated 10.6pc by 2030.

    In a pure market, sugar cane would be the only viable biofuel with a cost of $35 a barrel (oil equivalent). The others are sugar beet ($103), corn ($81), wheat ($145), rapeseed ($209), soybean ($232), cellulose ($305).

    Subsidies drive the business. The US offers tax relief of $1 a gallon for biodiesel. The EU has a 10pc biofuel target by 2010.

    The crop switch comes just as China and India make the leap to an animal-based diet, replicating the pattern seen in Japan and Korea, where people raised their protein intake nine-fold as they became rich. It takes 8.3 grams of soya or corn feed to produce a 1g weight gain in cattle - compared with 3.1g for pigs, 2g for chicken and 1.5g for fish.

    Mr Currie said investment cycles in energy typically last about 10 to 12 years as producers struggle to catch up with demand. However, this cycle has been short-circuited by politicians after barely six years.

    "The political environment is extremely hostile. The world is looking like the 17th century under mercantilism when countries saw economics as a zero-sum game. They exported as much as they could to get gold, and erected enormous barriers. China looks like that, so does Russia, the Mid-East and most of Africa and Latin America," he said."(snip)


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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    George Will published an article in last week's Newsweek about just this thing. There is a simple, affordable, way to produce biofuel with a smaller carbon footprint, and is totally illegal.

    Hemp.

    I suppose every government has it's priorities, right?


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    George Will published an article in last week's Newsweek about just this thing. There is a simple, affordable, way to produce biofuel with a smaller carbon footprint, and is totally illegal.

    Hemp.

    I suppose every government has it's priorities, right?
    Mr. Will did not say anything of the sort in his 2/11/08 Newsweek "The Last Word" column. He did point out the following :

    We have 10.4 billion barrels of oil in ANWAR & the actual "footprint" of drilling would be 1/6 the size of Dulles Airport. ANWAR is bigger than Mass.;N.J.; R.I. Conn. and Delaware combined.

    In 1996 Bill Clinton declared 1.7 million acres of Utah to be a national monument.
    By an amazing coincidence those acres covered 60 billion tons of low-sulphur; clean burning anthracite coal. And coincidentally,the world's second largest deposit is in Indonesia and is owned by the Riady family. By another amazing coincidence they have been and still are being incredibly generous to the Clintons.

    On our own continental shelf we have 420 trillion cubic feet of natural gas which is off limits to drilling. Will didn't mention all the offshore oil that also can't be drilled.

    Rather than drill for oil; drill for gas and extract the coal we are instead destroying the very forests that absorb greenhouse gases. Rather than encourage efficient ethanol production we have slapped a tariff on Brazilian ethanol. We are ultimately trading energy shortages for food shortages. The price of both corn and soybeans has gone throught the roof and China has had to dip into it's S.P R. = Strategic PORK Reserve to feed its people and is also dealing with a rash of pig rustling.

    All these and other distortions and unforseen consequences can be fairly laid at the feet of Socialist environmental extremists who insisted that government act rather than let the Free Market deal with these and other problems.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Eric: I'm afraid I don't have the same faith in the free market that you seem to. The profit motive, though useful in many ways, does tend to be the cause of some serious problems. Do you think the free market could have for instance reversed the ozone hole phenomena? And, with respect to a more current concern, how do you suppose the free market will arrest and reverse global warming...that is, aside from the extinction of humans and the earth fixing itself in a million years or so?
    hb

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Eric: I'm afraid I don't have the same faith in the free market that you seem to. The profit motive, though useful in many ways, does tend to be the cause of some serious problems. Do you think the free market could have for instance reversed the ozone hole phenomena? And, with respect to a more current concern, how do you suppose the free market will arrest and reverse global warming...that is, aside from the extinction of humans and the earth fixing itself in a million years or so?
    hb
    What ozone hole ? The one over Antartica that naturally closes itself every time ? The one that's a seasonal phenomenon ?

    As far as Global Warming is concerned NOTHING will stop or reverse it. The earth has warmed and cooled many times over the centuries. It's caused by THE SUN. Mars is warming up. How are we raising CO2 levels on Mars ?

    It is incredibly pretentious for humans to assume they can influence massive long-term climate patterns. The Sun and Sun alone controls centuries long period of warming and cooling.

    Btw, who says global warming would necessarily be such a bad thing ? Longer growing seasons in a larger arable land mass; less demand for heating fuel ; fewer people freezing to death. It would involve some dislocation and adaptation but that's what humans are good at. Adapting to changing environments.

    CO2 levels are higher because we're destroying the rain forests and other natural lands that absorb CO2. That it's happening during a natural cycle of gobal warming has caused a fallacious connection between the two phenomenae.

    Even assuming that we cut our CO2 output in half; the rest of the world ; especially China and India will more than make up the difference.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Eric: No offense, but where are you getting your scientific information from? Rush Limbaugh?
    I like your avatar though.
    hb

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Eric: No offense, but where are you getting your scientific information from? Rush Limbaugh?
    I like your avatar though.
    hb
    No. I almost never listen to Rush. I've actually READ the science from both Global Warming advocates and skeptics. You're aware, are you not that the ancient Romans grew olives and red wine grapes in areas where that is currently impossible ? That the Vikings raised cattle and grew crops on Greenland ? It's still impossible today. How do you explain that ? How do you explain temps on Mars increasing ?

    The Romans lived during a period of Global warming that lasted until the 1300's. We then experinced a 500 year long period of cooling called the "Little Ice Age". At it's height during the Winter of 1780-1 people were walking across N. Y. Harbor from Staten Island to Manhattan. I wouldn't try it today unless your name is Jesus ( and even he didn't try it too often.) It never ceases to amaze me how Al Gore
    and the alarmists never even try to explain away these and other historical and climactic inconsistencies in their man-made Global Warming theory. That they refuse to debate their skeptics and detractors.Why ? If the debate is truly over and all the science is REALLY on their side it would be a walkover , wouldn't it ?

    Btw, you do agree that solar activity is the single most influential force on Earth's weather, don't you ?

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    What ozone hole ? The one over Antartica that naturally closes itself every time ? The one that's a seasonal phenomenon ?
    Eric, do you seriously believe that all the nations of the earth agreed to ban CFC's to combat an imaginary threat? That it was a socialist conspiracy? And while we're on that subject, the free market adapted quite nicely to this socialist intervention, didn't it?

    And yes, I agree that the sun has a huge effect on the weather here.
    hb

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Eric, do you seriously believe that all the nations of the earth agreed to ban CFC's to combat an imaginary threat? That it was a socialist conspiracy? And while we're on that subject, the free market adapted quite nicely to this socialist intervention, didn't it?

    And yes, I agree that the sun has a huge effect on the weather here.
    hb
    I asked you WHICH "ozone hole" you were referring to ? The one over Antartica is a natural, seasonal phenomenon. The ozone layer of the atmosphere is certainly better off from restricting CFC's but again, WE ( the U.S. & Canada ; Europe , Australia) are not the problem. China and India have NOT curbed CFC usage. Neither has much of Africa and Asia.

    Actually, many auto-makers are still struggling to replace CFC's with other refrigerants that do not corrode the hoses and other parts of automotive cooling systems. It's a trade-off.

    Btw, what are you advocating ? Banning coal and oil ? Assuming you are right and carbon fuels are causing climate change how much civilization are you willing to deconstruct ? How much of Canada should be evacuated ?

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    To Eric about Mars.That's not true. Here is a link that explains it.


    The grapes thing isn't true either. The claim is about England, right? There have been prize winning wines from the area in question.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I asked you WHICH "ozone hole" you were referring to ? The one over Antartica is a natural, seasonal phenomenon. The ozone layer of the atmosphere is certainly better off from restricting CFC's but again, WE ( the U.S. & Canada ; Europe , Australia) are not the problem. China and India have NOT curbed CFC usage. Neither has much of Africa and Asia.

    Actually, many auto-makers are still struggling to replace CFC's with other refrigerants that do not corrode the hoses and other parts of automotive cooling systems. It's a trade-off.

    Btw, what are you advocating ? Banning coal and oil ? Assuming you are right and carbon fuels are causing climate change how much civilization are you willing to deconstruct ? How much of Canada should be evacuated ?
    Well listen Eric, you seem like an alright guy, certainly passionate about your beliefs. Lets say for the sake of fun, friendly discussion that I advocate precisely the opposite of that which you advocate.

    Sure I'd ban coal and oil, at least the polluting of our atmosphere from their combustion, if that was required to save our asses. Now keep in mind that we have all the oil our 2 countries would need for a looooonnnng time, and we're racing against the clock to get it out of the ground and sell it to ya. But I'm not too worried, because we've got just about any raw material we need right here to heat our homes or fuel our vehicles or otherwise feed the U.S. consumer.

    The technology exists to use heat from the ground, hydro-electric power, solar and wind power, tidal movement, and who knows what's around the corner. All that's required to really get the ball rolling good is some leadership from our governments...then watch the free market take that ball and run with it.

    BTW, we won't need to evacuate Canada, we might have to make room for people seeking relief from the heat south of us though. No worries though, we're a very friendly, polite and welcoming people up here...and we're kind of fond of you Yanks anyways.

    hb

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Opps, sorry I forgot to add the link about the wine.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    You mean taking billions of tons of carbon out of the ground and putting it in the air isn't having an effect? That it's human arrogance to assume that it could?

    I'm going to listen for all the facts, keeping in mind the filters that advocates run their "facts" through. In the meantime, I can make my own observations from my own travels and time in life. Summers are hotter. Glaciers are evaporating. People (including me) sunburn a lot more easily than they used to. So Mars is warmer? First of all, I don't know that for a fact. Second, as I understand, it's a different planet.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    It's funny...the title of this thread reminded me of when Reagan declared that trees cause air pollution
    hb

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Opps, sorry I forgot to add the link about the wine.
    http://environment.newscientist.com/...change/dn11644
    Oh brother ! The Thames is a freshwater river that freezes at or close to 32 Farenheit. N.Y. Harbor is mostly saltwater and freezes at a MUCH lower temp. And it would have to be well below daytime temps of about 20 for a long extended period of time for N.Y. harbor to freeze over solid enough for people to walk across.

    The Romans went where they could grow RED wine grapes; not white and wheat and OLIVES. How many olive groves are there in England ? How much red wine and olive production is there on the upper Rhine ?

    I didn't say anything about Vinland and the link you cite casually confuses GREENLAND and Vinland ( Newfoundland). It's an undisputed historical fact that the Vikings grew crops and raised cattle on Greenland until about 1300 when the climate got dramatically colder. They did one of three things: left for Iceland and Norway ; starved to death or intermarried with the local Inuit and adopted their ways.

    We're in a natural warming cycle. It wasn't that long ago that the same scientists crying about "Global Warming" were predicting another Ice Age.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    To Eric about Mars.That's not true. Here is a link that explains it.

    http://environment.newscientist.com/...change/dn11642
    The grapes thing isn't true either. The claim is about England, right? There have been prize winning wines from the area in question.
    This is ridiculous ! The very link you cite concedes that Mars is warming but simply claims that it is for reasons other or sources other than solar activiity. The obvious question being- if Mars is warming up without ANY connection to man-made CO2 levels; why not Earth ?

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Well listen Eric, you seem like an alright guy, certainly passionate about your beliefs. Lets say for the sake of fun, friendly discussion that I advocate precisely the opposite of that which you advocate.

    Sure I'd ban coal and oil, at least the polluting of our atmosphere from their combustion, if that was required to save our asses. Now keep in mind that we have all the oil our 2 countries would need for a looooonnnng time, and we're racing against the clock to get it out of the ground and sell it to ya. But I'm not too worried, because we've got just about any raw material we need right here to heat our homes or fuel our vehicles or otherwise feed the U.S. consumer.

    The technology exists to use heat from the ground, hydro-electric power, solar and wind power, tidal movement, and who knows what's around the corner. All that's required to really get the ball rolling good is some leadership from our governments...then watch the free market take that ball and run with it.

    BTW, we won't need to evacuate Canada, we might have to make room for people seeking relief from the heat south of us though. No worries though, we're a very friendly, polite and welcoming people up here...and we're kind of fond of you Yanks anyways.

    hb
    You're right about Canadians. One reason I LOVE visiting Canada- everybody is SO friendly.

    Canada has 30 milion people approx. We have 300 million. Our energy needs are at least 10 times yours. China and India have over a Billion each. Do the math.

    Funny you mention hydro and wind. We've got environmental extremists who oppose both ; mostly for aesthetic reasons. Wind farms are "unsightly" ; they chew up birds; hydro-electric dams interfere with naturally flowing rivers and mess with spawning salmon. Geothermal has to be piped from the source to the use. Solar panels in Vancouver ? Hmmmm. I don't know how well that would work.

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    Default Re: Biofuels Cause MORE Greenhouse Gas

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    It's funny...the title of this thread reminded me of when Reagan declared that trees cause air pollution
    hb
    Read the studies published in SCIENCE and then say that.

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