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Thread: An Equal Right to Die

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    Default An Equal Right to Die

    Eye-opening article in today's New York Times about Great Britain's National Health Service. For years, Britons were able to supplement their free treatments by paying for additional drugs and therapies themselves. In particular, cancer patients were able to buy chemo and other cancer drugs NOT COVERED by the National Health Service.

    Not anymore. Determining that it is "unfair" to let some patients use THEIR OWN MONEY to try and stay alive; the N.H.S. has ruled that it's: "ALL or NOTHING". From now on, Britons must pay for ALL of their treatment or accept the rationed "free " care that does not include many efffective therapies.

    This is the deep dark dirty secret of most "NATIONAL" health systems. Not only is not everything covered ; not only are some treatments and drugs limited or not available at all BUT patients are limited in what kinds of and how much "self-help" they may use.

    Ah, the Socialist mentality. It's a beautiful thing.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerousdiva View Post
    What scares me is how many people in the US think socialized health care would be a good thing!!

    The thought just makes me cringe.
    I have less of a problem with trying to expand health insurance coverage than with trying to implement "national health care".

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    What needs to be done is MORE REGULATION on insurance providers... Those companies have way to much power... Companies like BlueC/BlueS can do pretty much whatever they want, to bo patients and doctors...

    People don't realize it but Doctors get screwed by Insurance as much as Patients do...

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    ^^^ true, but imagine how much screwage of both patients and doctors takes place when a single gov't agency is in total command.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ true, but imagine how much screwage of both patients and doctors takes place when a single gov't agency is in total command.

    Please, please don't get me wrong... In no way, shape, or form do I want the Gov. in charge of healthcare... Medicare and Medicaid 'nuff said

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Eye-opening article in today's New York Times about Great Britain's National Health Service. For years, Britons were able to supplement their free treatments by paying for additional drugs and therapies themselves. In particular, cancer patients were able to buy chemo and other cancer drugs NOT COVERED by the National Health Service.

    Not anymore. Determining that it is "unfair" to let some patients use THEIR OWN MONEY to try and stay alive; the N.H.S. has ruled that it's: "ALL or NOTHING". From now on, Britons must pay for ALL of their treatment or accept the rationed "free " care that does not include many efffective therapies.

    This is the deep dark dirty secret of most "NATIONAL" health systems. Not only is not everything covered ; not only are some treatments and drugs limited or not available at all BUT patients are limited in what kinds of and how much "self-help" they may use.

    Ah, the Socialist mentality. It's a beautiful thing.
    The problem you are describing is NOT government providing access to a minimum level of health care...

    It is the government deciding you cannot venture out on your own to top it off.

    These are separate things.

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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    You can not generalise. Australia, for example, has both a public and private health care system, and Medicare DOES cover most proven treatments.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Ah, the Socialist mentality. It's a beautiful thing.
    Oh brother. Great Britain is not Socialist.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Some people say nationalized healthcare is socialism... and I beleive Eric meant more that this situation is socialist in nature...

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Oh come on. You guys are vastly understating how screwed up the US healthcare system is. The US pays more and I would bet gets less.
    Hate to break it to you but competition in the US system does not lead to lower prices. Most people don't even know how much a surgery will cost when they get their surgery.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by space_Cadet_28 View Post
    Oh come on. You guys are vastly understating how screwed up the US healthcare system is. The US pays more and I would bet gets less.
    Hate to break it to you but competition in the US system does not lead to lower prices. Most people don't even know how much a surgery will cost when they get their surgery.
    Which is why I said we need more REGULATION of the private healthare system... Not takeover by the Gov. which can barely handle many of the things already on its plate.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by space_Cadet_28 View Post
    Oh come on. You guys are vastly understating how screwed up the US healthcare system is. The US pays more and I would bet gets less.
    Hate to break it to you but competition in the US system does not lead to lower prices. Most people don't even know how much a surgery will cost when they get their surgery.
    You're correct. Generally speaking, the U.S. health care dollar provides a lousy return. the reasons are endless - restrictive admissions at U.S. medical schools ;too many foreign born and foreign trained doctors making too many mistakes ;too much money spent DEFENDING meritorious med mal lawsuits; bloated bureaucracies every step of the way from hospitals to Medi-caid ; Medicare and health insurers. Too little preventive medicine; an aging overweight population;high-tech and high priced therapies and diagnostic devices; reliance on expensive drugs etc. etc.

    National Health Insurance just treats part of the problem. We need top to bottom reform.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Oh brother. Great Britain is not Socialist.
    When equality of results trumps equality of opportunity ; when the Government tells someone they cannot spend their OWN money to try and save their OWN life; it looks like Socialism to me. What would you call it ?

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    When equality of results trumps equality of opportunity ; when the Government tells someone they cannot spend their OWN money to try and save their OWN life; it looks like Socialism to me. What would you call it ?
    Ok, obviously you don't even understand what you are debating. They are not sayng people can't spend their own money to save their lives. They are saying people have an either or choice. They can use the national healthcare OR get their own. Just not both. Far from a perfect system, yes. Socialism? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Some people say nationalized healthcare is socialismis socialist in nature.
    Got it but I'll just say this and then leave it be. Some people REALLY over exaggerate their socialist comparisons. There is a big, big difference between a social service program such as national healthcare and actual socialism.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Ok, obviously you don't even understand what you are debating. They are not sayng people can't spend their own money to save their lives. They are saying people have an either or choice. They can use the national healthcare OR get their own. Just not both. Far from a perfect system, yes. Socialism? No.
    What? They ARE saying people can't spend their own money to save their own life!

    "Oh I'm sorry Mr. Johnson I know we, the Gov., have covered all your medical bills up till now but we don't cover the cancer treatment that will save your life. What? No I'm sorry we don't allow you to pay for it yourself."

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Ok, obviously you don't even understand what you are debating. They are not sayng people can't spend their own money to save their lives. They are saying people have an either or choice. They can use the national healthcare OR get their own. Just not both. Far from a perfect system, yes. Socialism? No.

    Got it but I'll just say this and then leave it be. Some people REALLY over exaggerate their socialist comparisons. There is a big, big difference between a social service program such as national healthcare and actual socialism.
    And the justification is what ? It's NOT to save costs to the National Health Service. It doesn't cost the NHS a farthing if a patient spends their OWN money on an effective cancer drug NOT covered by the NHS. They have imposed this horrible choice in the name of "FAIRNESS" i.e. because some patients cannot afford to buy drugs or pay for treatments NOT COVERED by the NHS then no NHS patient ought to be able to do. So Britons who cannot afford to pay for ALL of their treatment are forced to accept incomplete and inefffective treatment. For what ? What purpose is being served except some warped egalitarian ideal ?

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Btw, in many cases it's not rich folk who used to be able to this. People were selling their homes and other valuables and borrowing heavily from friends and family.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You're correct. Generally speaking, the U.S. health care dollar provides a lousy return. the reasons are endless - restrictive admissions at U.S. medical schools ;too many foreign born and foreign trained doctors making too many mistakes ;too much money spent DEFENDING meritorious med mal lawsuits; bloated bureaucracies every step of the way from hospitals to Medi-caid ; Medicare and health insurers. Too little preventive medicine; an aging overweight population;high-tech and high priced therapies and diagnostic devices; reliance on expensive drugs etc. etc.

    National Health Insurance just treats part of the problem. We need top to bottom reform.
    How about 3rd party payment where neither the consumer or supplier cares about the cost (insurance pays and even that is bought by a 3rd party - the employer). The nature of medicine in itself; no one cares about cost when your life is on the line.

    Billing seems to be somewhat random. Insurance and the government pays a fraction of the billed rate and the schmucks without insurance get charged the full rate.

    I don't want to criticize what someone gets paid, but saw a study that said the average practicing dentist was making $185,000 in the US. When a relatively common job in the system and one that is acquired with a degree and training is making that much, something is wrong with the system.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by space_Cadet_28 View Post
    How about 3rd party payment where neither the consumer or supplier cares about the cost (insurance pays and even that is bought by a 3rd party - the employer). The nature of medicine in itself; no one cares about cost when your life is on the line.

    Billing seems to be somewhat random. Insurance and the government pays a fraction of the billed rate and the schmucks without insurance get charged the full rate.

    I don't want to criticize what someone gets paid, but saw a study that said the average practicing dentist was making $185,000 in the US. When a relatively common job in the system and one that is acquired with a degree and training is making that much, something is wrong with the system.

    I general I whole heartedly agree with you. There is a problem with a system whereby one doesn't even know of the cost of a procedure or product.

    It is also something the system can force upon a person - I remember watching a cops episode where a guy got beat up and was telling the ambulance crew "I can't afford this!" But they were going to do what they were going to do anyways. It's a service you cannot say no to when they decide you will.

    I read your remark about dentists as they are somewhat over paid. I don't think so. There is a level of complexity in the human skull, identifying and fixing it's ailments, and the drugs they use to ease pain.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    ^

    I don't think medical professionals are overpaid, given the demanding nature of both their job and training. I do, however, find it unfair that patients must cover the entirety of those high costs in some jurisdictions where medical treatment is necessary for the ailment in question. With regard to procedures that aren't truly necessary (eg cosmetic surgery for perceived defects), I do think patients should cover all their own costs, unless they have paid for insurance to cover them.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    ^^^ ultimately, this comes down to one simple conclusion ... that with today's high tech medical treatments it IS possible to extend life greatly ... BUT ... the costs involved in doing so are tremendously high and usually well beyond the reach of your average worker. When health care becomes nationalized, that financial equation falls squarely on the gov't / taxpayers. So the gov't controls its risks / costs by setting down a rule that citizens must either be 100% IN the national health care system, or 100% OUT, such that the gov't can decide what level of treatments are 'fair and reasonable for all' for those that choose to be IN the national health care system. Is this socialistic ... sure ... they don't call it socialized medicine for nothing !!!

    But it does avoid situations like the one that recently developed in the USA, where a girl with AIDS was initially denied insurance coverage for an organ transplant that was only expected to extend her life by an additional 9 months, finally resulting in a multi-million dollar settlement. Under a national health care system, there would be no way that a person with AIDS would be approved for any sort of heroic treatment measures, since the same organ and the same amount of public health care money could be used to extend the life of a different person (who did not already have AIDS) for years or decades.

    If the gov't were to allow 'supplementary' health care within the national health care system, then all of a sudden the gov't is sanctioning a two tiered / multitiered health care system ... where those who are wealthy enough can purchase better treatments at better facilities from better doctors, and where those who are 'poor' are stuck with the bottom of the barrel. This is tolerable in a private health care system, but not in a public health care system, because it amounts to a de-facto judgement by the gov't that some people's lives are more 'valuable' than others.

    In the final analysis, the uber-rich will always be able to have it both ways ... since they can jump on their private jet and seek the best medical treatment available in America / Thailand / Switzerland / you name it. However, the 'middle class' do not have this option ... and are thus 'stuck' with a gov't mandate that they will receive exactly the same level of national health care as the 'poor', even if they have some additional financial means which could have purchased better (but non gov't sanctioned) treatments or medicines.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-24-2008 at 07:05 AM.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ ultimately, this comes down to one simple conclusion ... that with today's high tech medical treatments it IS possible to extend life greatly ... BUT ... the costs involved in doing so are tremendously high and usually well beyond the reach of your average worker. When health care becomes nationalized, that financial equation falls squarely on the gov't / taxpayers. So the gov't controls its risks / costs by setting down a rule that citizens must either be 100% IN the national health care system, or 100% OUT, such that the gov't can decide what level of treatments are 'fair and reasonable for all' for those that choose to be IN the national health care system. Is this socialistic ... sure ... they don't call it socialized medicine for nothing !!

    ~
    Well, again, that depends on the country. Here we have a hybrid system and you can use either public care, private care or a mix of both, though the obtaining of private cover is strongly encouraged via both a tax rebate and exemption from the Medicare levy if you have it. Socialised medicine can take more that one form and doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Often a middle path is best- avoids the excesses of both extremes. Extreme policy in general frequently results in unfair outcomes.

    Medicare here covers most proven treatments where there's a genuine need, however the flip side is that there's a wait on elective procedures if you do choose public care.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    ^^^ arguably America already has the same system ... those earning less than a certain income threshold participate in a 'public' health system i.e. medicaid for which they pay nothing. However, higher earning Americans get neither any relief from high taxes (which pay for the medicaid benefits) nor any coverage (since their income levels make them ineligible to receive medicaid benefits).

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ arguably America already has the same system ... those earning less than a certain income threshold participate in a 'public' health system i.e. medicaid for which they pay nothing. However, higher earning Americans get neither any relief from high taxes (which pay for the medicaid benefits) nor any coverage (since their income levels make them ineligible to receive medicaid benefits).
    I thought only the poorest of the poor plus the elderly got Medicaid. That is a very different system to ours. Medicare is universally available to citizens and is not means tested (it is funded via a special levy deducted at tax time if you don't have private health coverage), however, individuals also have the option of buying private health coverage, which covers more procedures (such as part of the costs of dental and optical treatment, much of which is uncovered by Medicare), means shorter or no waiting times for elective procedures which might otherwise carry a wait and also means a tax rebate and exemption from the Medicare levy. Those on pensions and the equivalent of welfare get further government coverage via a Health Care Card (which means that medications are much cheaper, for example).

    Chalk and cheese, IMO.

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    Default Re: An Equal Right to Die

    ^^^Medicaid is for the poor, and in many cases Children. Medicare is for those 65 and older...

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