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Thread: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

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    Default weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    (snip)"Theft of Tax Data Hits Bank Clients Around Globe
    By David Crawford in Vaduz, Liechtenstein and Mike Esterl in Frankfurt
    Word Count: 828 | Companies Featured in This Article: Deutsche Post

    Liechtenstein's largest financial group confirmed that stolen client data believed to be fueling a major German tax-evasion probe included confidential information on thousands of customers and beneficiaries in other countries.

    The disclosure yesterday by LGT Group further undermines the tiny principality's reputation as a discreet tax haven and comes amid growing pressure from other countries to roll back banking-secrecy laws in order to clamp down on cross-border tax dodgers."(snip)

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    Sounds like a little bit of Bundesnachrichtendienst black bag work to me... tax dodgers are enemies of the state!

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    even more rich folks should be nervous now !



    (snip)"Feb. 26 (Bloomberg) -- The tax-evasion probe linked to Liechtenstein bank accounts widened to 10 countries as German authorities said they've investigated several hundred people on suspicion of concealing money in the principality.

    Sweden, Germany, the U.S., the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand all have information on citizens who've potentially used Liechtenstein bank accounts to avoid taxes, Mats Sjoestrand, the Swedish Tax Agency's director general, said today. "(snip)


    The true irony of all this, though, is that if gov'ts attempt to REALLY tax the uber-rich heavily (as opposed to just SAYING that they're going to tax the uber-rich heavily), there are enough other 'tax haven' countries - enough 'private banking' opportunities - and enough tax exempt / tax favored investment opportunities available that the uber-rich will simply shift their assets to stay one step ahead of the taxman.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    Tax dodgers ARE indeed the enemy of the State. And the State is my enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, therefore tax dodgers are my friends.

    Tax evasion is a heroic and patriotic act. Giving the government MORE money is always bad for us, the public. It's just more money for the government to use to further restrain our liberties. I celebrate the fact that we don't get our money's worth from Government, or we would really be in trouble.

    Tax evasion is as American as Apple Pie, probably even more so. I am a proud practitioner. I feel more patriotic as a tax cheat with layers of corporations and off-shore money than I felt as a Marine.


    During the Bush years of supposed "Tax cuts to the rich" the share of the top earners rose while many people also dropped off from the bottom.

    The uber rich get taxed because that's where the money is for the government to take.
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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    The uber rich get taxed because that's where the money is for the government to take
    Yes the uber rich get taxed in terms of total dollars, but not in terms of relative tax burden. Of politicians' tax returns that have been made public, you can get some idea from John Kerry. He earned a cool $5 million dollars in 2004, and paid a defacto federal tax rate of 12%. True that this provided the gov't with $600k in tax revenue. However, most 'middle class' people have to pay a defacto 20-25% federal tax rate on their $100k incomes. Warren Buffet is also on record as paying a significantly lower defacto federal tax rate than the secretaries / analysts etc. working for him must pay.

    The reasons for the lighter tax burden applying to multi-million dollar incomes is that uber rich people can afford to take advantage of tax loopholes / tax favored investments ... which typically have minimum buy-in prices that keep the 'middle class' from taking advantage. For example, John Kerry's tax return showed $4 million dollars worth of interest income from tax free muni bonds. The price sticker on a single muni bond is typically $50,000 ... with some of the higher interest muni bonds carrying a price sticker of $100k.

    IMHO there is still an issue of fundamental unfairness when a person with a $5 million dollar income pays a 12% federal tax rate, while a 'middle class' person must pay a federal tax rate percentage that is twice as high !

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Sounds like a little bit of Bundesnachrichtendienst black bag work to me... tax dodgers are enemies of the state!
    It was a disgruntled employee of the bank.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    The relative burden has increased. That is what I was referring to.

    Comparing investors to laborers is going to yield a different comparison.

    low-income labor versus high income labor, the high income earner pays more tax.

    low capital investor versus high capital investor, the high capital investor pays more tax.

    If you want to make a complaint about the tax on labor(including ceos getting a salary) being a high stock percentage than investment, that's up to discuss. I favor both at 0.

    HOWEVER, even with all of that, the rich are still paying more[1].


    There are no magic loop holes taught to the rich that aren't available for anybody. That's the myth about poor versus rich.

    The unfairness is in that people are taxed at all. Progressive versus recessive, labor versus capital gains, all meaningless distractions to instigate fake class-warfare instead of taxpayer unity against the tax-eaters.

    I am both a laborer and an investor. I earn a salary and I also earn about the same amount in investments(yearly). The tax rate on LABOR is higher. as somebody on the crux of a transition, it makes little sense for me to work harder and aim for a higher salary when investing has a higher return on my effort because the tax rate is much less.

    My solution would be to harmonize all tax rates downward and not give in to the temptation of politics-by-envy.

    One problem with a lot of the taxation comparisons comes from the FICA tax, which makes the evaluation a bit of a bait-and-switch. Also, most people get their taxes done at H&R block or some other low-effort tax franchise. A lot of the wealthier people fork out the lucrative investment in getting a real tax pro. I began doing this at 19, because paying 500 to get 3000 back seemed smart to me than paying 99 dollars to get back 500.


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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    update ...



    It would appear that the uber-rich will remain uber-rich, because Lichtenstein is ready to 'go to the mat' to maintain absolute bank secrecy in regard to foreign gov't information requests about Lichtenstein bank accounts. Thus if you are 'rich' enough to travel to Lichtenstein once to open a bank account in person, it would appear that you can be confident that zero information in regard to deposits / withdrawls / interest earnings will find their way back to your 'home' country's tax people.

    There are no magic loop holes taught to the rich that aren't available for anybody.
    well, the 'price of admission' to a tax-free Lichtenstein bank account is a private jet ride to Lichtenstein while carrying your briefcase full of money. Middle class people from europe can drive there. However, middle class people from America have to fly there ... and will be nabbed by US customs if they attempt to fly there on a commercial airline with a huge wad of cash in their pocket. Thus the 'price of admission' of a tax free Lichtenstein bank account is effectively beyond the price range of middle class Americans. Same goes for the $50k or $100k 'price of admission' to purchase the highest yielding triple tax free municipal bonds. Same goes for the $100k+ partnership investment necessary to secure production tax credits from ethanol distilleries / wind farms / solar.

    So agreed that there is no legal distinction that says that 'rich' people have different tax advantaged loopholes available to them that aren't also available to the middle class. However, there is a HUGE distinction in regard to the ability of the middle class to actually afford taking advantage of the tax advantaged loopholes that are technically available, due to the (deliberately) high minimum 'price of admission'.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-27-2008 at 10:36 AM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    Most people don't even take the time to try and evade taxes. They just do it the simple way.


    And God bless Lichtenstein. A plane ticket to Europe is not exactly staggeringly expensive. Middle class people have money. They just spend it. I'm middle class. I also don't have kids, a mortgage or car payments because I've elected to not incur those expenses. Why not spend the 1k on a plane ticket if it let's you keep thousands of dollars in the long run?



    With the way interest rates have been in the last decade, muni-bonds(which are under threat of default now in some cities) have never been an enticing investment to me monetarily, and ethical, i am totally opposed to government lending.

    People are poorer because of their outlook, not because of tax advantages or whatever. if you have a future-oriented outlook, you will be richer than those who have a present-oriented outlook. Crying about the advantages the have solves nothing. buying in bulk is usually a way to save money, the rich can just buy more bulk than those who are less wealthy.

    There are HUNDREDS of ways to invest and avoid the tax man besides the ones you list. I employ every one i can economically employ. Do you know how much it cost me to setup a family limited partnership, several corporations, and a living trust? Practically nothing. These instruments save me tens of thousands of dollars.

    I'm an anarchist, so I am always against the government suppressing anybody. But at the same time, promoting envy and "class consciousness" is the opposite direct we need to move to change things in America(or california in my case since i favor Californian secession.

    You have a hard on envying the rich. I'm going to be rich if I continue along my current path, so I just see you as another enemy, eventually looking to reach into my pocket to make things more "fair". Fuck that.
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    Default Re: weekend commentary - I bet this is making lots of uber-rich Americans nervous

    Why not spend the 1k on a plane ticket if it let's you keep thousands of dollars in the long run?
    when you fly commercial, you are subject to US customs inspections ... and there is a $10,000 limit on the amount of money you can carry out of the country without automatically being reported to the IRS by US customs. So if you can't afford the private jet option where you simply fly away with whatever you happen to have in your carry-on bag, flying commercial means that every $10k worth of deposits you transport to Lichtenstein will cost you a $1000 commercial plane ticket (plus other expenses). Not exactly a cost effective option.


    I'm an anarchist, so I am always against the government suppressing anybody. But at the same time, promoting envy and "class consciousness" is the opposite direct we need to move to change things in America(or california in my case since i favor Californian secession.

    You have a hard on envying the rich. I'm going to be rich if I continue along my current path, so I just see you as another enemy, eventually looking to reach into my pocket to make things more "fair". Fuck that.
    I'm not the one looking to reach deeper into your pocket ... that would be fellow Californians and Hilary and/or Barack.

    Actually it really doesn't matter a whole lot to me personally whether the uber-rich pay a higher tax rate than middle class people do or not. However, what DOES matter to me is certain politicians advocating tax increases for anyone earning more than $50,000, but not mentioning that they are maintaining or creating tax shelters that benefit the rich disproportionately. Of course this is very understandable, since most national level politicians are at least rich if not uber-rich themselves.

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